13 year old DD saying awful things to other children.... Please help!

[CelestialBean]

DD s 13. DP has a 4 year old DD who stays with us but doesn't live with us.

We had a lot of stress with DP's ex and have just been through a massive and very stressful court case. DD was aware of how difficult and stressful it was.

DD has a habit of saying very spiteful things when she is annoyed or upset. So yesterday she told DP's DD that her mother was dead......

DP's DD asked me if it was true, luckily she doesn't really understand the concept and I was able to explain that of course she's not and that she's absolutely fine.

DP was furious with my DD (as was I). DP didn't shout at her, he left it for me to deal with her which i was glad of. DD then stormed to the bottom of the garden and howled loudly. DP had to carry her into the house at 9pm (sent straight to her room) where she drew all over her face and arms in red pen and wrote him a note saying how horrible he is and he makes her want to kill herself and has done many times....

She is a bit sheepish and quiet today. DP is still very angry. He's asked how I plan to punish her.

She's had therapy before after her father left to live 200 miles away and start a new family a year ago. She was very upset about this and had lots of rages where she'd threaten to hurt herself or jump out of a window. She has calmed down a lot since though.

Sending people to their room and demanding that they stay there is a form of abuse. If your partner asked you to go and stay in your bedroom until he told you to come out, how would you feel?

Not an analogous situation, as I wouldn't be sending my parnter to his room for seriously assaulting my seven year old child, he would a) be lucky if he was still conscious and b) be under arrest.

This girl has SERIOUSLY INJURED a seven year old child and told a four year old her mother is dead. Yes, I'm sure she's very damaged and really in a lot of emotional pain but she is currently a walking safeguarding risk to the smaller children in the house. She NEEDS to be away from those small children she keeps harming and taking her on a fucking jolly sends entirely the wrong message about whether it's good or bad to punch a seven year old child in the face.

Emotive language aside, I’m with colditz on this one. There seems to be very little sympathy for a wee boy with a bruised and purple face. In fact one poster suggested it was partly his own fault for throwing the ball!!!

I think she needs professional help to deal with her anger. If you are at all able I would seek private help urgently as the violence can escalate quickly.

What is her reaction afterwards (once she has calmed down) ? Does she talk about it? Apologise? Is she still angry? Does she isolate herself? Is she self harming?

“DP's opinion is that this needs to stop, she's old enough to know better”

I’m sorry but this just isn’t a helpful way to approach it at all.

Thanks all. I'm surprised there seems to be two such distinct view points on the situation. This is what I struggle with in my own mind. There really isn't a general consensus on the way to deal with it.

She's very sheepsish and embarrassed afterwards and can see what she's done wrong quite lucidly.

She's still in her room by the way.

Well - call some old fashioned but there seems to be a catalogue of abusive behaviour going on in your family OP.
Your 13 DS is under serious distress - and all the MNers talking about calling police and shut in rooms are just piling in further abuse.
FWIW - I think she probably suffers from neglect. I don’t mean in a deliberate or malicious way - but I can guess that you don’t have much time for her - what with your DP, a four year old DD and brothers.
Fixating on controlling her behaviour by means of reward and punishment are absolutely the wrong way to go. She is displaying signs of serious mental health issues which are caused by your entire family dynamic. Individual counselling is only partially helpful and limited in this scenario. There is often one family member that is singled out as ‘the problem’ and then open to abuse, which results in bad behaviour and the cycle escalates.

She sounds to be neglected when good and abused when bad - and she’s hurting and lost the whole time.
Sooo...
Do you spend alone time with her?
Do you take her out on - just you and her - to do something you both enjoy?
Do you show her she is valued for herself?
Do you fix specific time to listen to her?
Do you try to support her with the damage that her father has done to her emotionally?
And how to all the above?
Because if you want a teenage girl to become nasty, abusive, self harming, suicidal, impossible to live with, and with such low self esteem that she resorts to violence - the best thing to do is have one parent abandon her, deprioritise her and then focus on her bad behaviour when it surely emerges and neglect her at all other times.
You see - you have not once explained how she feels, what she is going through, or what she needs. So (and feel free to correct me) I’ll go out on a limb and say that ...maybe you don’t know and maybe you haven’t nurtured your relationship with her? She is desperately insecure OP and you need to help heal her not control her.

I am seeing zero evidence of a neglected and abused teenaged child here. I am seeing evidence of PMT combined with historically getting away with bullying behaviour, but the only abused child I am seeing here is this teenaged child's siblings, who are being abused BY HER.

Are you going to get the seven year checked at a walk-in centre?

ts your choice whether you want to build on your relationship with her (maybe with counselling), bring her in, develop some mutual respect .... or alienate her further by punishing her. She's angry. Punishing her will vindicate her feelings.

Sounds like a damaged little girl taking out her anger on those she loves because she knows they’ll stay. She needs therapy to discuss her abandonment with her dad; there are some really good free talking therapies out there for kids. Get a referral from your GP.

And she's told you she's suicidal. Would you really punish anyone in that state? And would a therapist ever recommend punishment to anyone in that position?

Would anyone suggest keeping a 4 yo and a 7 yo in an environment where they’re likely to be attacked on a whim? Because that’s what’s happening.

OP has said she is contacting the doctor as a matter of urgency, that she is seeking help for her daughter. Repeatedly.

However, her DD also needs to know that she cannot attack her siblings/step siblings in such serious ways, which is why OP asked for help.

So she has said nasty things to your partners DD, she HAS not physically assaulted her, She punched her 7yr old brother in the face- no mention of other violent incidents towards him. What has been mentioned is her having therapy, her feeling suicidal and her DF taking off last year. A little root cause to the behaviour right there. There is a real lack of emotional intelligence in this thread. Punishment, exclusion, police ...no one would say what she is doing is right however get to the root cause, reflect on your parenting,consider family therapy and perhaps you need to take sometime to sit with her 121 and talk. You seem to expect her to deal with you and your DP stress issues which you mention in relation to the court case. She must have been 11 or 12. Her DF had just moved 200 miles away too and you focussed on your DP and his DD issues. Another root cause right there. Its not difficult to work out what is going on. Oh and interestingly on reading your post your DP must have left his partner when his DD was only a baby. So can imagine there has been a lot of stress in your house over the years dealing with his ex and DD. So wonder how your DD fitted into all that. Lots to do here to stop this situation escalating...

HairyMorag, the OP's daughter has physically attacked and seriously injured another sibling since the origial post.

Colditz - I think you are seriously and deliberately exaggerating the physical harm here. I’m hoping you don’t have pastoral or parental care of any children - particularly adolescent girls. Are you in the military or police? - because your focus is all about behaviour control, constraint and punishment. (If only we could just tie children up for 23 hours a day? Problem solved!) OP has also said that this child is suicidal. Attitudes that say 13 year old girls are in full control and are not vulnerable but bad have led to BIG mistakes in social care - well publicised!!

Dadaist I haven't even bothered reading Colditz response goes back to what I said in my PP its the lack of emotional intelligence on here. No attempts to get to the cause, just punish the behaviours

That poor kid! 13 is a very difficult age at the best of times, but having a loved father move out of her life and this step father move in ,and from the sounds of it a rather unpleasant younger sibling.Parents inflict this on a child and then are genuinely wonder why their DC don't want to play happy families!

daddy's my daddy and not your daddy anyway
is a very barbed comment.Bright 4 year olds are capable of being malicious and manipulative especially if they have witnessed this sort of behaviour .They absolutely play on the fact that adults think they are too young for this.
I feel so so sorry for your poor DD .She is the victim in this sorry mess the adults in her life have created

The Op's seven year old son has facial bruising.

If an adult were to present with facial bruising at a hospital and advise that another adult had inflicted that upon them, that adult would be advised to call the police.

I haven't advised calling the police, in fact I have specifically advised against it.

i have, however, advised that the thirteen year old child who inflicted this injury is kept separate from smaller children until she has been seen by a mental health professional, because the smaller children are at risk of injury from a thirteen year old girl who does not seem able to control her violent impulses.

The thirteen year old being suicidal does NOTHING to protect the younger children. In fact I'd argue that they are even more azt risk as she has no reason to improve her life and therefore no reason to behave well.

She needs to be seen. She needs to be treated. She needs therapy. but unless you want more seriously injured small children on your hands, her movements need to be monitored and controlled because she is a walking safeguarding issue.

The kinds of attitudes that go "I'm not even going to LISTEN to views that don't coincide with mine!" are dangerous views when it comes to child safeguarding.

She needs more time spending on her, but she should also have consequences that fit the behaviour. Apologising to younger children and make amends to them.
Explain she is putting other people at risk which is not acceptable, but also plan some 1-1 time and treats for her and you alone

When she is calm and remorseful afterwards, if you chat to her have you tried asking what she’d like to do differently next time, how she thinks she can achieve it and how she’d manage difficulties in a similar situation? If she says sorry is she forgiven? It sounds like she needs help in managing her emotions. Of course what she has done is not right and as we can see on the thread there are different opinions on how to deal with that. I think she needs some focus outside those episodes, some positive attention too.

I am seeing zero evidence of a neglected and abused teenaged child here. I am seeing evidence of PMT combined with historically getting away with bullying behaviour, but the only abused child I am seeing here is this teenaged child's siblings, who are being abused BY HER.

Yeahh .... from a poster who suggests humiliation as a form of discipline and uses such emotive language, it's very hard to see where you provide measured advice. Your posts have been way over the top and some of the advice is plain destructive.

OP, I do think specialist advice is in order for your daughter. Just about every poster has said that your daughter needs to regulate her behaviour better and she probably needs help to do that and perhaps you and your husband could pick up some tips along the way.

Really the point has come to take action tomorrow morning rather than reading more on here.

I would ask her to write the real and potential consequences of her behavior are every time she is spiteful. So what pain it caused the child, the father etc what the 4 yo might have done following this information. How it's made everyone feel about her. How it is behaviour that is difficult/impossible to forgive. What difficulties it will give her in future relationships etc. She needs to find another route because spiteful is just never ok.

It's all very well saying poor 13 yo but poor everyone else too. And she is making a bad situation worse. It's not your fault her arse of a Dad has upped and left. She hitting out at the wrong people. Refocus the anger on her dad. She can write a letter etc. But people that blame their parents/others for every ill in their lives need to let it go for their own sakes.

DP's suggested dd writing a letter to his ex explaining why she would say that to a 4 year old. He thinks that kind of consequence will stick in her mind and make her think.

I agree. Except I wouldn't actually give it to his Ex.
Hopefully her writing the letter should make her think.

That nasty streak in her needs to be stamped out.