13 year old DD saying awful things to other children.... Please help!

[CelestialBean]

DD s 13. DP has a 4 year old DD who stays with us but doesn't live with us.

We had a lot of stress with DP's ex and have just been through a massive and very stressful court case. DD was aware of how difficult and stressful it was.

DD has a habit of saying very spiteful things when she is annoyed or upset. So yesterday she told DP's DD that her mother was dead......

DP's DD asked me if it was true, luckily she doesn't really understand the concept and I was able to explain that of course she's not and that she's absolutely fine.

DP was furious with my DD (as was I). DP didn't shout at her, he left it for me to deal with her which i was glad of. DD then stormed to the bottom of the garden and howled loudly. DP had to carry her into the house at 9pm (sent straight to her room) where she drew all over her face and arms in red pen and wrote him a note saying how horrible he is and he makes her want to kill herself and has done many times....

She is a bit sheepish and quiet today. DP is still very angry. He's asked how I plan to punish her.

She's had therapy before after her father left to live 200 miles away and start a new family a year ago. She was very upset about this and had lots of rages where she'd threaten to hurt herself or jump out of a window. She has calmed down a lot since though.

Buried? That was typed bullied.

*effect

@CelestialBean contacting the team on Monday sounds good, hopefully they can see her soon. Will she talk to you about her feelings? Is she able to explain? I know there aren’t any SN from what you’ve said, but some tools for children with autism may also help if she struggles to verbalise emotions and understand them? (DS1 really struggles to articulate his emotions and we used some social stories and visual tools to help him cope with his anger and stress when my Mum died).

I also understand your reluctance to punish an already mixed up struggling child, I do. But I think that is counter productive, because it implies to a child’s mind that they can get away with it if there aren’t serious consequences.

But aside from after the outbursts, I think she does need love bombing (again, I hate that phrase because it’s twee but it’s the best way to say it quickly!) and to get to the bottom of why she’s feeling the way she is.

To be that spiteful, she sounds very troubled. I would also suggest counselling. That sounds hard, I'm sorry.

@FlyingBird firstly, I’m autistic, and so are my children, so please, take it from me, that deliberate cruelty to the level OP describes is absolutely NOT typical of ASD. Neither is targeting a small child verbally.

I thought OP had said upthread “no SN that we know of” but if I’m wrong I’m happy to be corrected.

So not trying to derail, but can I just ask that people think very, very carefully before jumping to suggest autism as a reason for negative behaviour. It happens all too often on MN and it is very damaging and unhelpful to continually peddle a stereotype that doesn’t actually resemble the diagnosis you’re bringing up. And I’m trying my best to stay calm, but I’m sick fed up of it. Thanks.

Ugh, two names because I namechanged for it on laptop but am now on my phone app which doesn't seem to have updated, oh well!

Smeddum - I'm not reluctant to punish her, I just want to do it in the right way, ie not something that going to be counterproductive. I think it needs handling carefully and I don't want to mess the situation up more than it already is.

What do you all think of her writing to the mother explaining why she did it and that she's sorry?

@Mimco I know, and I do sympathise, I really do. DSD went through a stage that was particularly vicious (she was coping with a lot) and I was the same, but when she took it out on DD who was a tiny baby at the time I went batshit and she knew she’d crossed a line. Not because DD was more important than DSD (and I made that clear) but because bullying someone smaller than you is never ok. I guess that was the point of view I was coming from.

I thought it was a good idea initially. However if the mother is likely to react to your DD directly I wouldn’t say it is a good idea.

Well this is the problem. I don't really want dd to feel she has to engage with the woman, dd knows snippets of what's happened regarding her... Stuff she overheard.

What else do you think would be suitable?

For me personally it would be removal of privileges for a set time, all of them, not just the phone. So TV, treats, any games consoles or days out, going out with friends. Basically a harsh grounding (but with a time limit so it’s not continued for weeks) and a firm “this is what will happen every time”.

But during that time if she is able to open up, or offers affection I’d never withdraw from that iyswim? Firm consequences she doesn’t like, but not withdrawal of you. I’m not sure I’m explaining this very well. I also think that your DP should (calmly) be able to explain why he is so angry and upset, and how damaging what she said was.

But from what you’ve said about the ex I wouldn’t be convinced that she should be part of it. Although be prepared that the wee one might come out with it to her.

Poor girls. They both have a lot to be dealing with.

My eldest dd is 14 and I cannot imagine her being so cruel. It wasn't thoughtless or mean or a bit harsh. It was very cruel.

I also have a 4 year old and I can't imagine how she would react if someone said that to her.

You said you have been with dp for 3 years. So he had a one year old at the time? When did you and her dad separate? How long before your moved dp in? How old are her brothers? Do her and her brothers have the same dad? How have they coped with him moving away?

Jeez, that is horrifying - especially as the little girl was away from her DM at the time.

I would do some work on getting her to empathise with exactly why that was a completely unacceptable thing to say.

It is not too early for her to learn that there are some things you just don’t joke about :(.

@FlyingBird I’m not explaining it again, and I’m not engaging in any further derail. If you don’t get it, I can’t help you. But it’s a real shame that you don’t.

Ahem.....can we make a plea for peace and love.

We're all broadly on the same page with this and it would be a shame for this thread to end up with loads of holes from deleted posts.

"We had a lot of stress with DP's ex and have just been through a massive and very stressful court case. DD was aware of how difficult and stressful it was."

This part of the op jumped out at me as a big red flag.

Your child has been over-exposed to very stressful adult matters which has possibly changed you and the family dynamics.

A lot of your attention and head space will have been on this court case involving DP's dd. What about your daughter? Her dad had upped and left, she needed you more than ever.

I think what she said was awful but she's obviously struggling with her feelings just now and is very angry.

Please focus on your own child and let your DP focus on his for now. Also be cautious and ensure you protect her from overhearing stressful conversations.

Filter out everyone else projecting and follow what your DP suggested. Letter to ex apologising and no phone for a week and get her back to counselling spitefulness is a horrible trait. Be the strength she obviously needs in turbulent times.

PS the letter doesnt have to be given its the task of self reflection.