Sahm and finances..

[Namechange452]

Been with dh 7 years, married for 2 and have 2 preschool aged children, been sahm since eldest was born. Prior to this I never had a ‘career’ as such but always worked full time and it was a joint decision for me to not return to work until the children were school age.
School age is approaching and have been thinking of starting to look at part time positions but having discussed this with dh he has made it clear that is fine as long as
A. It doesn’t affect him in anyway
B. I pay for any childcare necessary to make the hours work (breakfast club, childminder etc)

Alongside this, I really resent the way our finances are regarded at present (and is part of the reason for returning to work) dh earns approx 70k a year, no joint finances or bank account and I have to ask for money as and when I need it. I’m not really allowed any input or insight into our (his!!) incomings and outgoings and he sees this as his money and not ‘family’ money as he earns it and everything is paid for.

I really hate this setup and feel very undervalued and naive. We have zero savings although a decent income and I would love to know where and how all his money is spent! He is completely against a joint account, even if I was working as in his words ‘why should I benefit from his hard work..’ given I would earn a lot less. He does work hard, and very long hours, but I just never expected a marriage to be like this..tell me if I’m wrong!!
I hate asking for money like a child, and I feel like i am poor whilst he is quite well off, although mortgage and bills are paid for obviously.
He cannot see my point of view at all and returning to work to have some financial independence seems pointless when at least half will be paid on childcare (out of my sole earnings)
What does everyone else do? Is this normal?

Is he saying he will pay for all other expenses, food, board, clothing, etc and you just need to pay for additional childcare from your earnings and not keep them all to yourself ? And as such it's a small proportion i in comparison to what he pays and a similar proportion of both your salaries?

He should be more open with finances yes, and his attitude doesn't sound right at all, but lots of folks don't have joint accounts and see their salaries are theirs.

You should have a joint account, where you both pay a proportion of your salaries in, and then have spending money left. But then you should also both share the work at home and with kids. The issue here is you agreed to this set up initially, get back to work and get some financial independence. Arguing isn't going to change his views and you don't want to leave him.

Thing is, his logic is flawed. Surely the argument that the sahp has to earn enough to offset childcare costs only works if all money is family money and thus the finances of the family as a unit are all that are considered. You have no family finances, your DH wants to consider his earnings as his. If money is not family money, but personal, you should each contribute proportionally to family expenses, including childcare. Thus, it doesn't matter if you going back to work makes financial sense or not because you have no family finances. All that matters is does it make sense for your individual finance, which it clearly does.

Did that make any sense?

We don't have a joint account and I don't want one, though we have a joint savings account. OH has one account for all bills, another account for bits and bobs. I have my account which he pays £1500 a month into. Out of this I pay for all the groceries and anything the children need plus my nails, hair , lunch with friends etc. I will also pay if we go out for a meal though he does always offer. Before we had children it was agreed he would be the breadwinner and I would stay home. I told him though that I wouldn't want to keep having to ask for money and didn't want to have to justify what I was spending the money on. I'm not going to say leave him as that's extreme but you do need to talk to him

I think you need to test the water here. Get a job, then tell him that from the day you start working outside the home everything will be shared. Everything. Bills, childcare, housework, shopping the lot. He needs to understand what would happen if you weren't in his life, and what that would cost, literally and metaphorically. If he balks at that, then you jnow that your set up isn't real and you're his skivvy.

It's time he realised that it's not possible to have a high earning, plus full-time job and be away a lot and have a rewarding family life without someone else there to do the domestic heavy lifting. If he wants that, he needs to pay for it, and he may as well pay you rather than an outsider.

I worked with a guy who left his SAHM wife for OW. XW went back to work and made him split childcare 50/50. She used to phone him about 3pm on the days he had to pick up the kids to remind him, and every day there'd be a row about it. He really really struggled to sort it out that he just couldn't do the job he loved and meet his other responsibilities without support. He'd never recognised or valued what XW was doing. He tied himself up in knots about it, always with the "why can't she just" - well sorry mate, why can't you just...

Call his bluff OP.

Namechange,

I think you both sound like decent people and it sounds like you can talk about things.

There are two extremes here which people tend to believe, probably based on their personal experiences. The first one is financial abuse. As far as I can see from what you have said, he never says no to your requests for money, so this is not happening here. The second is a SAHP having equal control over everything but taking little responsibility for the stresses of life. I know SAHm with personal trainers, cleaners, au pairs etc etc with grey tired husbands who work all hours to keep them in that lifestyle. That is not fair, either, especially if the SAHP has not sacrificed a meaningful career to stay home.

I am a bit sceptical of the wholly SAHP/wohp model in the modern era. I think both parents should contribute to both earnings and home/children, especially when all the children are school age, which seems to be what you want to do, and should be commended for.

The SAHP/wohp model is a disaster in the case of divorce (which is now 40% of all marriages). Even if you don’t divorce what does the early middle aged SAHP do when the children leave home. Is just looking after a house enough? Is that fair on the wohp?

Every relationship is different and, for some, the old fashioned model works. But, for many, it eventually leads to the type of clash you are now having.

You need to have s frank discussion where you both set out your bottom lines as regards management/control of all areas of your life. This should be looking forward to where you want to be in 10 or 20 years. Hopefully you can agree. If not, it is probably better to call it a day sooner rather than later. Otherwise you can just drift into resentment from both sides.

Yes, his logic is flawed. The ONLY way a family with a SAHP can work as a proper, functioning unit is if everyone has access to the money they need. When you set up an organisation like that (because for these purposes it is an organisation) you acknowledge that each member is contributing in some way but not necessarily by earning cash. You ARE contributing financially, though, OP, by doing work that could easily be paid for. You're also contributing emotionally, which money can't buy.

If he can't see it it's because he's got the weight of years' worth of male oppression behind him that says 'wifework' is valueless. But of course it's not. It's not just a moral issue it's a practical one.

The other issue is that he is not treating you as an equal adult, he's treating you as a pet. And he is supposed to love you. Those are not the actions of love.

I had to have this conversation with my OH when I got pregnant with my first, and boy, am I glad I did. I'm not trying to be smug. But if you think it's not intentional, you need to open his eyes.

I don’t think he sounds like a decent person. I don’t think he respects you. What is he trying to hide?

My now exDP told me we would open a joint account once we moved into our first home together. I got excuse after excuse as to why he couldn’t add me to the account. I lost out on quite a lot of tax credits by moving in with him, and ended up trying to survive on my part time wages. I ran out of money every month (my wages only covered bills and nothing else) and had to ask him for cash, he enjoyed this. I found it humiliating. I worked 5 half days a week, did everything around the house, he didn’t lift a finger. And he would regularly tell me that he did everything for the family and I did nothing. After a year I ended the relationship (there was other factors too but the money was a big one). He clearly didn’t care about my feelings or value my contribution to the family. His controlling side really started to show. Not attractive.

Mookatron is absolutely right!

When we had our first I was receiving maternity pay, once I didn’t return and that stopped we sort of fell into this set up of him just giving me money as and when which Iv hated more and more as time has gone by. I thought things would change when we were married but they haven’t.
I don’t think he thinks I have it easy at home particularly, he’s involved enough in the children to know it’s hard work but he definitely does not financially value what I do or appreciate how his work life has remained the same since pre kids because I do it. If I died tomorrow or up and left him with the children (as if!) he would 100% be screwed and would need a full time live in nanny or a new wife pretty sharpish.
He does work a demanding job with long hours for us, it is all about us but he has to have full control over that which I resent.
I think he believes I want half of all his earnings but I don’t, I don’t want it seperate like that..that’s the point! I just don’t want to have no access, input or have to ask for a hand out and permission to get every day bits.
Another ‘discussion’ ahead I think!!

On his salary he's picking up around £4 a month
Even with a large mortgage and bills they come to £2K - he still has half his salary to play with - less anything you ask for.

He should give you at least £1k for shopping clothes and kids clubs etc that need paying.

You need to remember (and tell him) that even if he refuses to change his mind that doesn’t mean you don’t have choices. You do not just have to put up with the restrictions he places on you- that’s not a partnership. I would probably tbh go
Stay with family for a few days/ a week without the children and tell him they are his children to and to make it work for a few days, if he doesn’t respect your role he can bloody well do it. But like I said this is absolutely marriage ending territory for me.

For discussing finances, would he be happy if someone was employed at work to basically do his job but for twice the pay? It’s not that he’s unhappy with his own pay, it’s the value statement his employers would be making about this new person compared to him by allowing that disparity. The value statement he is making about your role in his life is that it isn’t really worth much.

Exactly right @timeisnotaline.

I suggest you keep detailed accounts for a month, or two, of everything that you spend. Also make a note of things that you would have purchased ad hoc but weren’t able to. Then say that it is demeaning to have to ask for handouts all the time and that you request that sum to be given to you at the beginning of the month. I would suggest that he moves it into a joint account where you have an associate card. Or if he is unwilling, then to hand over the cash for a month when he is paid (you open an account).
One of the benefits is that he won’t need to spend the weekend shopping! Also he won’t have to keep going to the cash point for cash. It will make his life easier.
What happens to the child allowance?
Also instead of asking about each amazon purchase, just say ‘I have purchased some things from amazon today, it comes to approx £xx, just so you know’ - that way he knows but you should not have to justify every expenditure. If he wants to see what you’ve spent, he can look for himself. Put the onus onto him to ask you. Also, when asking for money, don’t say ‘can I have money for shoes for the kids’, just say ‘I will need £50 tomorrow’ and make him ask. My DH and I have a phrase ‘walking around money’ ie money just to have in your purse because you are out and might need something/shouldn’t be in a situation with no cash even if you’ve got cards....you might find it a useful phrase: DH please leave £50 on the side as I have no walking around money in my purse’.

If there is no transparency around where the money is going how do you know that there isn't debts being run up or that it isn't been gambled away?

I find it difficult to understand that there are no savings or saving plan to benefit the whole family. What happens when kids want to go to uni?

Honestly op, you carry on like that and it will kill your love for your dh. Not being treated as an equal and not being valued for the hard work and sacrifices, kills a relationship. Him telling you that you don't deserve it because you didn't earn it, even though you completely facilitate him.earning it, is awful. But even if you both worked and both did equal childcare and housework, you're still supposed to love each other and share the good things?

You I are unlikely to ever earn equal to him. So are you forever going to be scrimping and asking for money and not having any say in the family money?

That's been my life op and it wasn't about the money, it was about control and financial and emotional abuse and a complete lack of respect and value of my contribution. I'm more qualified and could have easily outearned him had I continued working the hours that he does and wants to do. Instead, I work just as many hours but in the home and unpaid. Well, I've been back at work for the last few years but because of my children, I am still restricted. Which is fine. My priority in life isn't to make as much money as possible, it is to be there for the kids and have enough money to live nicely enough. I would have been quite happy for both of us to have local jobs that meant we could both share everything and the kids wouldn't suffer, but he wanted to do the job he does and he doesn't have the patience or inclination to do even the tiniest bit of housework or childcare.

So, that's one of the reasons why we are splitting. He's also jealous, secretive (I also have no clue about his bank account) and other stuff. I'm so looking forward to having control of my life again. And it wasn't about the money, it was about the principle. Like yours, he pays all bills and he does put money in my bank account but not enough to cover what I need. So also, he's the one who always gets to buy presents for the kids and be as extravagant as he likes. And with 4 children he could actually not have afforded the 24 hour childcare needed for his continual international trips away.

However, if he is working for the good of the family

I always call bullshit on these sorts of comments. My dh once said he worked ‘for us’. I said that was crap. He works doing a job he likes and that if it were ‘for us’ does that mean he’d work less in an easy job because his outgoings would be less? That stopped him in his tracks!

Show him this thread! You have said nothing negative about him, just described an intolerable situation with overwhelming support for your position!

Please don't show him this thread- this is your safe space.
Fwiw I'M the breadwinner in my relationship and I think he is financially abusing you.

Why did he get married? It wasn't to cement your partnership so it must have been to stop the house maid from being able to run away quite so easily.

My ex was like this. I didn't realise I was being financially abused at the time either. He earned the money and had sole control of it. Despite him earning a more than your DH I was scraping about for shoe money for my DS. Let's just say I can buy my kid shoes any day of the week now.

So many insightful comments here. It’s not actually about the money is it ? It’s about the lack of respect and his need to control her.

OP you say in your last update that you don't want to separate the money out and for you to have half - but why not? In your situation I'd be very tempted to do exactly that. Big chunk of change comes in every month and drops into central account. Regular outgoings - mortgage, utilities, cars whatever are ringfenced plus an agreed amount for food and the rest is split 50:50. I'm not seeing what would be wrong with that.

A scary aspect is there could be huge debt - perhaps the reason he is so abbusive and controlling about money? And you have no idea what is being done?

On. Salary of £70,000. pa he must be bringing home 3,500/4,0000 pm.

WTF is he doing with that monthly amount!!!!!

By the way, if you want your own regular income you can still claim child benefit which your husband will need to declare through his taxes. That will keep your National Insurance payments going too.

Why should you profit from his hard work??? Wow. Does he not profit from your hard work then? Free 24/7 childcare, a free cleaner 7 days a week, free laundry service, free home cooked meals every day? He is taking the absolute piss. He can't have it both ways. Either you're a partnership, both contributing to a relationship that you share, or you're both out for yourselves, In which case he can keep his money, and you stop, doing more than 50% of child care, and stop doing anything for him at all.

If he suggests that paying the bills somehow makes you equal, I'd tell him to stop paying them, and instead you will pay half, and will invoice him the going rate for all of the free hours of work you provide him with - I promise you it will cost him far more than half the bills.

I would show him how serious you are by telling him that if he doesn't change, it will end in divorce, and he will HAVE to look after the kids 50% of the time, or pay for childcare for them, he will have to work AND take care of a house like most adults do. Stop letting him minimise your contribution to the family, and just how much support you provide for him.