Struggling with DM - again

[christmaspresentaibu]

I've posted here about my relationship with DM and her behaviour previously. It all blew up around September/October last year and I thought we'd got to a point where DM understood that she couldn't keep putting pressure on me to drive home and see her and DF all the time and texting/calling/messaging constantly - I'm doing a PGCE and live about an hour away from them.

After much crying on the phone and my DF driving up to see me and cry in his car on the first day of my PGCE about how my behaviour (not seeing/talking to them as much as they'd like) was affecting them, I thought I'd finally got through to them that I just don't have the time or the brain capacity to deal with them. Through my PGCE safeguarding training and talking to colleagues, I've come to realise that their behaviour (this year just gone and lots of incidents throughout my childhood) probably constituted emotional abuse. I actually dropped everything one Sunday before Christmas to go to their house and 'have it out' - DM crying on me, asking me to hug her and tell her I loved her, after all which she goes 'I know you hate me.' Just the whole thing was awful.

Despite all this, I went to stay with them for a few days at Christmas and then DP and I drove down to see them again for the evening about three weeks ago.

Since then, I found out that DM and DF have visited the area where I lived but gone home without telling me. I also have to instigate any contact at all now - so it's one extreme to the other. I sent DM a small/token gift I'd thought about and chosen to show her I was thinking of her, but when I messaged her last night to ask whether she liked it, her response was 'it would've been nice to see you last week but never mind' (schools in our area were on half-term but I had PGCE assignments and planning to do, plus wanting to spend time with DP and my friends).

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm trying really hard to weigh all this up in my head (I don't really have anyone to talk to who understands, apart from a colleague at work who has similar parents). Am I being a shit daughter? I'm trying to come to terms with their behaviour and still be kind to them, while at the same time do the best I can in my training, look after my mental health and enjoy my relationship with DP. Nothing I do for them is ever enough.

If anyone can advise me on this (again, sorry), I'd be really grateful.

golondrina our mums sound identical in that respect! Mine has engineered a huge drama about me abandoning her, when really I'm still living near my university town and moved to be slightly nearer to my boyfriend, which I think is normal for a 24-year-old? You're right that it has the opposite effect to the one she wants, because it pushes us away.

Aussiebean that makes complete sense, that this is her sort of enacting her warped narrative. I said to DP that I was calling her out on it because I refuse to be the villain in her story.

DP made them biscuits, we took them for lunch, had a lovely walk along the seafront, gave them our Bank Holiday and that still isn't enough.

I invited her up next month to do a run and stay over in our town to have a weekend with us. Still not enough because she 'isn't allowed' to phone me.

Aussiebean you're spot on about the changing goalposts. No matter what I do to try and make it right, I have to be a villain. It is mentally and emotionally exhausting. She's furious that I'm establishing and trying to maintain boundaries!

Such disordered of thinking people will actively rail against any boundary you care to set; this being the latest example from her. But I have to ask, why did you at all invite her to have a weekend with you?. Aussiebean's comments about your mother being heavily invested in you in her narrative are spot on. You're supposed to be the mirror image of her, in her world you are not supposed to have any thoughts or feelings of your own.

It is really not possible to have a relationship with someone like this so I would not keep on trying. You could give these two the moon on a stick and it still would not be enough. Do not forget either that your dad is her enabler and hatchet man in all this, he cannot be at all relied upon either. If you do one day become parents please for the love of all that is good not at all subject your kids to your parents under any circumstances. These two are really not healthy to be at all around and if you find them too toxic or difficult to deal with, it will be the same deal for your kids also.

Setting boundaries with narcissistic or intrusive people is a continuous process. Knowing this can help you adjust your expectations.

If you slip or don’t set healthy boundaries, realize the power of narcissistic tactics you are up against and the legacy of vulnerability you may have from years of their control. That is a lot to overcome.
Give yourself a vote of confidence. Ask yourself what you hope to do differently next time, and move on.

Narcissists care about image and appearance. Because of this, they want you to act in ways that make them feel good about themselves, often at your expense. Your opportunity is to choose who you want to be around them.

Ask yourself:-
What do I need to do to respect myself in this situation?
What do I want to stand for?
Do I want to feel small and overwhelmed or strong and confident?
Your answers can provide a context that can guide you to be the person you want to be.

christmaspresentaibu - I could have written many of your posts and that of others. There is much shame in knowing/realising that your Mother doesn't actually like you nor is in your corner championing you along like 'normal' mothers. So you don't mention it for fearing that people think you are weird. Or it is your fault. So you keep up the secret and charade of performance parenting from your tormentor - all the while in a heightened state of anxiety as to what she will try and screw up/dominate for you next. Reading many of the posts on this thread and the stately homes thread you realise you are not alone. So you explore telling people. And guess what? You find you are not alone IRL either. Don't stop exploding her 'truth' and her myths. Since I have told my oldest friends (who I have known since I was 11) they have told me of many many incidences which they didn't tell me at the time because they weren't sure how to broach the subject. Horrifically embarrassing stuff that frankly makes my DM look unhinged. I am dealing with something caused by my DM right now assisted by her flying monkey/Golden Child (Dsis) and I am sitting here annoyed with myself for asking for help in the first place. I should've known better and I have let her in when I had managed to keep her at bay for so long. Lesson learned again. Ticks for me on this thread:

• Weird attitiude to sex/facts of life

-Threatening to kill herself when I was younger

• Leaving us in the house alone and driving away leaving her little kids scared to death

-Threatening to give toys away (that does so much to a little girl's viewpoint on possessions)

• Jealous of my life/family/friendships/relationships as she is unable to hold her own

-Weirdly tries to worm her way into my friendships and then 'reveals' what a terrible person I am to anyone that will listen

• Keeper of secrets for Dsis but will tell all and sundry any private news of mine
• Weird manipulative relationship with my DD, her only DGD (I have put a stop to that)

-Oddly generous in gift giving but doesn't know the first thing about me -Views me as 'easily led' if I don't agree despite me clearly being a leader and have led large organisations with '000's of staff -Views my successes as down to her and her success as a mother.

If it is any help OP when the time comes, when bringing up my DD I just think 'What would my mother do' and do the opposite.

To anyone that has gone NC or LC and parents have passed, do you genuinely feel no remorse? Both of mine are ill and I am torn between a big FU or playing along for the last two years but worried if I do the former, I will be left with some sort of lasting guilt.

Have you had treatment for your codependent traits yet?

I am pretty sure I won't have guilt when they die.

I am equally sure that if I fell for their shit again, got enmeshed and abused, then they died in the midst of it, I'd spend the rest of my life feeling weak for never having successfully stood my ground against them.

Sorry, everyone, I was going to wait until I was on my laptop to reply to you all properly, but I'll have a go on my phone.

Attila I invited her for a few reasons, I think - I feel a sort of duty to, I thought it might keep her happy, and I really desperately want the kind of mum that DP and I can spend time with in that way, although I know my mum isn't that person. I also wanted to be able to show other family members that I am being the bigger person and doing my bit by inviting her.

I'm thinking more and more about our future children. If she continues as she is now, I couldn't let her near them. She will certainly never have anything more than extremely closely supervised contact by either me or DP and I'd be clear about why that is.

Thank you for the checklist of questions as well, Attila, I find it really helpful to list things like that so I will keep hold of those for future reference.

Belindaboo123 I'm so sorry yours is so similar too! Your list of incidents really resonates with me as well, but there are lots of us here in similar situations

RabbitsAreTasty not yet - I had an initial assessment on the NHS and they said that my issues need counselling, which unfortunately is no longer available on the NHS, so I am waiting to see a private counsellor. Codependency (codependence?) is one of the things I want to work on.

There are loads of resources on the internet for help with codependency.

A lot are based around people in relationships with addicts/alcoholics, which isn't you. However, if you read around, you will find things that speak to you about your situation.

Not as good as face to face therapy but can be helpful while waiting.

Thank you, Rabbits, I've just had a google and found an interesting page, and some previous posters have recommended some good resources which I need to go back and have another look at.

I'm going to show DP an article about NMs as well. Thank you all for your advice again

Sorry all, I'm just posting again about lowering contact with DM.

I think her saying this about missing talking on the phone is her way of trying to increase contact again. I was much happier before only messaging her and not having to actually speak to her on the phone! I hate having her voice in my ear facetime is an absolute no, we used to use that a lot but I can't bear the fact she can see me - I know how mad this sounds. That and the fact I'd see just how uninterested she actually is in my life - I could see her watching the television over the top of the ipad when I was telling her about going to Machu Picchu the next day! Why does she want to talk to me if she is so uninterested in what I actually have to say? Her only real comment was that she was surprised that it was light where we were in Peru when it was dark in the UK maybe that demonstrates her lack of empathy/thinking about things from others' POV.

Sorry, just pondering again. I don't want to increase contact again. Unless I could phone quickly on a Friday afternoon/evening so it doesn't impact on our weekend (I used to absolutely dread scheduled Sunday calls), but I'd want to get it out of the way early and she makes me wait.

There are so many little niggly things that don't sit right any more. Even my dad automatically assumes the worst of me. A few weeks ago he asked about my running, but he didn't say 'how is your running going?', he said 'have you given up running?'

Your dad is as invested in your narrative as your Mum. Sorry, that maybe be harder to accept then anything.

If you don’t want to increase contact don’t. This is where the setting of boundaries comes in. Decide what you can handle and stick to it.

I would get rid of any voice mail, so there is not voicemail for you to listen. Caller id on home phone so you know when to not pick up. If she leaves a message, wait for a while before you reply saying you are busy and will call later at x time.

This is the hard bit as she will probably up the ante. But it is worth it.

I ignored all phone calls from my mum that I didn’t want to answer (before mobile) talking to her gave me massive anxiety (although didn’t really get it at the time) so I avoided. Luckily for me, Mum realised I wasn’t going to play ball and dropped me like a stone.

Remember that there will probably be a medical emergency (fake or exaggerated) the flying monkeys will start flying (your dad) and it will be tough.

But if you see all that for what it is, it will help you through it.

You are still very much mired in your own FOG sadly re your parents.
You are still very much seeking her approval, approval that neither parent will ever give you.

I will state this again; your dad is really her enabler and hatchet man here and cannot be at all relied upon either. He is truly a weak man here and has thrown you under the bus repeatedly.

The website for Codependents Anonymous:-

www.coda-uk.org/

You may also want to read "Codependent No More" written by Melodie Beattie. She has written several books on this subject.

Re your comment:-
"I'm thinking more and more about our future children. If she continues as she is now, I couldn't let her near them. She will certainly never have anything more than extremely closely supervised contact by either me or DP and I'd be clear about why that is".

She will continue as she is and with regards to your second sentence I would not even give either of them even closely supervised contact. Your DP certainly needs further educating so do show him the article you found. The emotional damage to these children by them will be done right in front of your very eyes; it does not even have to be verbal either, a look can be enough. These people were not good parents to you when you were growing up and they have not changed. Neither should be at all around your most precious of resources which are your children. Do not therefore ever subject any child you go onto have to their emotional manipulations, you will truly kick yourself for doing that.

Narcissists as well make out for being deplorably bad as grandparent figures; they should not at all see any children you go onto have.

The problem with children often is that a parent like this makes you so stressed all the time and second guessing yourself that you are totally distracted from the business of being a parent. It's really hard to explain because it's insiduous but I am a much much better parent since NC, in part because I'm not on hyper alert and super stressed and fire fighting endless drama.
If you have more than one child, a grandparent like this can often have favourites, which is awful. I would never have thought my mum would do this to her GC but she did, blatantly. It was another reason for NC.
Unfortunately, Aussie is probably right (waves to aussie, G2B here on a name change) and lowering contact will create a backlash, but it's kind of the way it has to go. Your dad is almost certain to become a winged monkey to try to pull you back in and there will be some kind of drama or medical emergency and huge amounts of nonsense once she twigs what you're up to...if she's anything like my mother that is and she sounds a lot like her.

This is the book I mentioned about CBT:

www.amazon.com/Brilliant-Cognitive-Behavioural-Therapy-Lifeskills/dp/0273724908?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Read the bit about thinking errors if you get it, I guarantee your mum does most if not all of them.

Thank you, golondrina, I've just ordered a copy

Aussiebean, it's really hard to accept that my dad is just as bad as my mum. It's funny, I have always seen mum as the 'worse' of the two of them, but my sister thinks they are both as bad as each other, but she has been treated differently by them to how I have been. However, I do remember my dad commenting on how people on benefits should be sterilised so they can't have children - a little gem I repeated at (secondary) school I just accepted everything he said for a long time. I know he doesn't care that much about our futures - he voted for Brexit because of the fishermen (he isn't one), rather than thinking of his daughters' futures. They both pressured me to do German at university and when I commented that jobs in the UK where German was required might be moved elsewhere because of Brexit, he asked me if I really thought that, in quite a patronising way. he has also told me that he doesn't believe DP has a cat allergy, as if we're fabricating that to use against them too

He is a sensitive man, though, and very kind to animals. Just not a very demonstratively loving dad.

Attila, thank you, I'll look at the website. Codependency is still something I'm struggling to understand - is it that my mum is in my head all the time?

Re. the medical emergency, I've already been subjected to the MS diagnosis 'reveal', so they have form for this. I cannot get over how fucking bizarre it is that this behaviour is so predictable and weirdly almost scripted that posters on an anonymous forum can predict what my parents are going to do - but you're all right! It's just mad. How can they have learned to be like this and so many families all over the world be the same? Sorry for going round in circles. Thank you all for your responses as always

I have wondered about codependency. But I don't think I was, i think it's that enmeshment with the parent can create copdependent traits. This looks interesting. www.emofreetherapy.com/parenting/enmeshed-parenting-the-codependent-parent/
I think it's that your narc parent trains you to put them first in everything.

The script thing is that these people have similar ways of thinking (see the section in the book I linked about common thinking traits) and so they react the same way to things, which means you get similar behaviours from people who see the world in similar ways.

It's all a MASSIVE headfuck when you first start putting all the pieces together. And unfortunately, the way to get some peace from it all is usually to have as little as possible to do with them. Easier said than done, especially as they will often up the ante once they sense you pulling back, it's like a game of chicken.
Mine stormed off 100 km away in a car when she was supposed to be housebounf an unable to drive and stayed there for 3 days, as well as the usual threatening to kill herself "because of how I was treating her" (asking her to tell my husband if she had a problem with him rather than bitching about him to me).

Thanks, golondrina. Yes, completely agree with the fact that we're trained to attend to our parents' needs. I think my mum is genuinely confused that I don't want to dance to her tune any more - she saw it as a close relationship, I see it as controlling.

She's just asked me this morning to drive down to theirs for a family barbecue tomorrow but I've politely declined. DP is running 100k at the moment (started last night!) so I think him being knackered after 60 miles and carrying a knee injury is a valid reason not to go. I also drove him the 60 miles to the start and then home again last night, and I was out at 6.30 this morning to take supplies to him after the night part of his run. She said if he falls asleep tomorrow I can still come

Worried that this is the thin end of the wedge...

Going to carry on reading around enmeshment and codependency. The CBT book arrives on Friday! Thank you all

My dh has done those. He said it feels like his body has the worst bought of flu and he can barely move. You know that body ache you get? So he won’t be any good for much.

But you don’t need that excuse or to justify yourself. That’s where putting your boundaries up comes in.

‘Dh is doing a 100km uktra marathon and I am his support, so we aren’t available ‘. End of conversation. She can come up with all these work arounds if she wants. But... you aren’t available.

Don’t get into details, or try and justify yourself. You open yourself up for her trying to reorganise everything to benefit her. You aren’t available. That’s it.

What Aussiebean has written.

Do not try to JADE with someone like your mother; JADE is an acronym for justify, argue, defend or explain.

Wow, aussiebean, good for your DH! DP and his brother are doing really well and looking great considering the injuries they're carrying and the fact they're over 50 miles in. We have all of the recovery to look forward to!

You're right, I know I shouldn't get drawn into reasons and excuses. But as if I'd leave DP on his own for the day after he's done his first ultra marathon because she's summoned me, what is she thinking? The cynical part of me reckons it's a test for her to find out who is more important to me

She wanted to know if I was on my own or not this morning - code for 'is DP's mum with you?!' (No, she isn't)

I kept it very non-committal, we'll see you sometime, but wasn't drawn on details. We only saw them on Monday, FFS, and that wasn't good enough then! She's had enough of my time this week.

Thanks for replying, aussie

I have read your thread when I see it pop up. You are doing well but remember no matter what your DP will not be happy so stop trying to achieve that??

I have supported many an ultra, both dh and friends. My dh found a swim in cold water after helped and compression tights.

Remember also, you don’t have to reply straight away either. Well done on not answering her question. Baby steps.

Just wanted to say you sound like a kind person, OP .
It would be simple in some ways to just go NC, and I do understand why some do that, but I think it is great that you are setting boundaries without going that far. I have unreasonable parents too and the FOG re my father makes me sick with anxiety sometimes. However, I know that they love me, and as a parent myself I feel that if I were to go NC it would be like a bereavement for them. I don't want to make old people miserable if I can avoid it by managing the situation. I know dad will never be reasonable - I won't be able to train him! So I see having continued involvement to a manageable degree as a way of being kind to him, because he loves me and is simply not capable of understanding why his behaviour is a problem. It's like a disability of sorts.

I suppose any of us could become unreasonable when old. I wonder what would happen if, say, I developed some form of dementia one day and became very unreasonable. How would I want my kids to treat me? Id want them to insulate themselves from harm, but I hope they'd still throw me a lifeline every now and then. My pal says the crucial difference here is that some parents were never reasonable in the first place - if you were reasonable, you build up credit with your family to tide you over when you're not!
I'm rambling, but there is lots of food for thought on this thread so thank you for starting it.

I know what you mean, MaryPeary I feel the same about my DM. She's also very controlling and manipulative, she turns on the waterworks when things don't go the way she wants. She's constantly giving 'suggestions', but then gets put out when people don't do what she suggests.

She also gets very jealous, for example she was jealous when we invited our 19 year old au pair to come with us when we visited my DSis and her family. She went on about how we should have invited her instead so she could spend time with all her DGCs. This despite the fact that she was due to visit them the following weekend.

My views are coloured by the past, there's no doubt about that. She didn't protect us from our abusive F, she claims not to have known, but she's denying things that she definitely was told about.

She also constantly prioritises my DB over us. Okay, he has MH issues and has a lot of needs, but DSis and are not in the best mental health ourselves. She's always told me that I should 'look out for him', and I'm only now breaking free from this obligation.

But I know that she herself has had a very hard life, orphaned at 10, abused by the uncle who was her guardian, and I know now that my F abused her emotionally in so many ways, and financially. He also constantly accused her of cheating on him, according to him, a woman's infidelity was worse than a man's infidelity.

So I'm not in the best place to advise you, OP. But FWIW, I'm now virtually NC with my DB (he participated in the abuse, although a victim himself). I'm low contact with my DM, I see her only on my terms, and very rarely, because she's so stressful to be around. I'm also seeing how much less stressful social events I'm organising are if she's not around, because she's constantly sticking her oar into things that don't concern her and that's great.

You're doing really well. I would recommend finding a therapist because they help you to work out for yourself what you need.