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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

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Struggling with DM - again

319 replies

christmaspresentaibu · 19/02/2018 15:56

I've posted here about my relationship with DM and her behaviour previously. It all blew up around September/October last year and I thought we'd got to a point where DM understood that she couldn't keep putting pressure on me to drive home and see her and DF all the time and texting/calling/messaging constantly - I'm doing a PGCE and live about an hour away from them.

After much crying on the phone and my DF driving up to see me and cry in his car on the first day of my PGCE about how my behaviour (not seeing/talking to them as much as they'd like) was affecting them, I thought I'd finally got through to them that I just don't have the time or the brain capacity to deal with them. Through my PGCE safeguarding training and talking to colleagues, I've come to realise that their behaviour (this year just gone and lots of incidents throughout my childhood) probably constituted emotional abuse. I actually dropped everything one Sunday before Christmas to go to their house and 'have it out' - DM crying on me, asking me to hug her and tell her I loved her, after all which she goes 'I know you hate me.' Just the whole thing was awful.

Despite all this, I went to stay with them for a few days at Christmas and then DP and I drove down to see them again for the evening about three weeks ago.

Since then, I found out that DM and DF have visited the area where I lived but gone home without telling me. I also have to instigate any contact at all now - so it's one extreme to the other. I sent DM a small/token gift I'd thought about and chosen to show her I was thinking of her, but when I messaged her last night to ask whether she liked it, her response was 'it would've been nice to see you last week but never mind' (schools in our area were on half-term but I had PGCE assignments and planning to do, plus wanting to spend time with DP and my friends).

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm trying really hard to weigh all this up in my head (I don't really have anyone to talk to who understands, apart from a colleague at work who has similar parents). Am I being a shit daughter? I'm trying to come to terms with their behaviour and still be kind to them, while at the same time do the best I can in my training, look after my mental health and enjoy my relationship with DP. Nothing I do for them is ever enough.

If anyone can advise me on this (again, sorry), I'd be really grateful. Flowers

OP posts:
golondrina · 02/06/2018 16:16

she saw it as a close relationship, I see it as controlling. Totally get this, even I thought we were close until I worked out it was enmehsment. I kind of knew it was a bit weird somehow but put it down to her having had a hard life.

I do understand people not wanting to go NC, I didn't really, but you don't always get to choose iyswim. I tried the setting boundaries and it seemed to just make her push harder and harder and eventually it all got so batshit and out of hand that NC was the only way. I was kind of pushed into it. Hopefully yours will be able to be trained more easily, toddler-like.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 02/06/2018 16:26

But such people however are not toddlers nor can they be trained. They have trained you well from soon after birth to serve them with you putting your own needs last with theirs first.

I have found that narcissists actively rail against any boundary settings.

Your friend is right Mary; its indeed that some parents were never reasonable in the first place. Parents are people too. They were themselves treated appallingly badly by their own parents and they repeat the same old with their own children. Dysfunction can and does go down the generations. I would also suggest that you seek out a counsellor to address your own FOG properly and read the Out of the Fog website.

golondrina · 04/06/2018 09:11

I have found that narcissists actively rail against any boundary settings.

Yes, absolutely. Trying to lower contact with my mother just made her try even harder to get my attention by creating drama out of nothing and behaving like a loon. Once I worked out what was going on and tried to get some distance, her reaction to that set us on the inevitable path that led to NC.

TimeIhadaNameChange · 04/06/2018 11:12

I remembered something yesterday which I just want to get down and out of my head. It has nothing to do with the most recent posts, sorry!

But going back to their mixed attitudes towards sex: my sister is 10 years older than me and used to subscribe to a book group. One of those which advertised on the back of magazines. Some of the books would be labelled as having "explicit content". The books were kept on her landing.

I used to sit there and read them from time to time, and apparently my mother knew and did nothing about it. I would have been maybe 10-12 at the time (so old enough to know exactly what I was reading about). I just find it odd that, despite being so anti-sex, she was happy to let me read what was, basically, pornographic material. Hey ho, just another thing to add to the mix.

christmaspresentaibu · 04/06/2018 14:30

Thanks everyone. Sorry for not replying yesterday - I really wanted to try and get DM out of my head for a day to chill with DP which is why I didn't respond sooner. It didn't quite work, but I did speak to DP about her and Dad a bit, which was helpful. He did really well in his ultra, he and his brother came joint second! They were amazing Grin he's walking a bit better today as well, which is great.

RandomMess thank you, that's really reassuring to hear. I'm finding it hard to admit to myself that I don't think either of my parents really like me all that much and it's a weird control/obsession thing rather than actual, nurturing love - that's why I keep trying, I think. It's not a conscious trying, but it's a 'how can I placate them' kind of thing, to make everybody's lives a bit easier.

That's really sweet of you to say, Mary, thank you. I don't feel kind in the way I treat my parents a lot of the time! But I hear you! I hate the thought of making old people unhappy, especially as now it's affecting my grandparents too. But I am getting to the end of my tether with DM's ways. I'm trying to set boundaries but actually I just don't want to see her or speak to her at all any more, or at least at the moment! Your friend is right, I reckon - you earn yourself respect over the course of your life and, if you've treated others well, hopefully they'll treat you well in return in the future. My parents didn't treat me well (they did materially but not emotionally) and as a consequence of their behaviour, I don't want to spend time with them. Unfortunately they say that they can't join the dots and can't understand why I don't want to see them. I wonder if it's a bit of an ostrich, 'head-in-the-sand' thing.

Thanks, Lizzie, I'm glad you've found a way that works for you. Social events where my parents will have to be there is a real concern of mine. I veer between being really excited about the prospect of marrying DP and just feeling sick at the thought of having to have my parents there with all of our friends and DP's family. I don't think I could trust my mum and I think my dad will feel awkward because he knows that I've been open with people about how my mum behaves, I'm refusing to keep it a secret because that's what we always felt we had to do when we were growing up.

golondrina that's what I can feel happening in this situation. I'm putting in some boundaries and saying 'no' more, which I know is winding up DM. If she blows up this time, I can well see that it will result in at least some time of NC between us. I've failed two of the three PGCE assignments I've had to do since September and I really think that the stress of my parents' behaviour has had a lot to do with it, although I don't want to blame it entirely on them!

Attila I can really see that DM can't be trained now. If she was going to change or improve, she could have done by now. She's had so many years of people walking on eggshells around her and getting her own way that now she can't be any different. I really think it's a deep insecurity and paranoia within her that is making her like this, and I feel sorry for her, but it is impossible to live with.

TimeIHadaNameChange I'm really sorry. It's quite shocking how they can have such double standards, in terms of ignoring things like that but wanting to control and micro-manage other things. When I was around that age, I used to write letters to my cousin and some of them were really explicit! Not about her, but just about having sex and relationships. I was way too young to be discussing things like that in such detail but I became quite obsessed with it. My parents must have been told, because at the very least, I imagine my cousin must have showed the letters to my auntie (mum's sister). But it was never ever mentioned. To me, it's another example of how our parents failed to actually parent us. Flowers for you

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christmaspresentaibu · 11/06/2018 08:20

Hi everyone,

DP and I had another chat about living together at the weekend - he's asked his parents if I can move in to his little 'bedsit' at the top of the house and they said yes! All being well, I can move in in July or August (depends on the notice I need to give for my current room). I'm so excited that we'll be able to live together and it's really kind of DP's parents, as we'll be able to save lots for a deposit for our own place.

It's really lovely news but I'm dreading telling my parents, because I think Mum will go mad that I'm going to live with DP's parents. I'm going to present it to them as a done deal, there'll be no negotiation and they won't get a say, but she could still make my life difficult (and definitely my dad's and sister's lives hellish, as they'll be with her over the summer).

I'm trying to talk to my sister about it but she isn't responding. I think she might be upset that I keep putting all this stuff on her because every time I make a decision about my life that my parents don't like, she bears the brunt of it because she is at home with them during the holidays. This is the last summer she'll be with them, because next year is her final year at uni and she wants to stay near to her uni town after she graduates, but even so, I feel really bad about putting her in this situation again and again.

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christmaspresentaibu · 11/06/2018 09:57

I also really want to spend Christmas with DP this year - it would be our first Christmas actually 'together' (in the same place), although we've been together as a couple for two Christmases already. My parents expect me to go to them and stay in my childhood boxroom where the door doesn't close and there's an air vent through to the room next door - zero privacy at all!

The problem is that, as DP and I would be living with his family, this would mean Christmas with them too. Of course we'd offer to visit my parents afterwards, probably the 27th, but I know already that it won't be good enough. But I'm starting to think, if they make me unhappy, why should I feel duty-bound to spend Christmas with them? Why shouldn't I spend it with the person I love and who actually loves me for who I am?

Really interestingly, I was looking back through my old threads on here a few days ago and I found one that I'd posted about my relationship with my ex-boyfriend under a different name. He would switch off his phone and refuse to communicate with me for most of the time (we were in a LDR for the last two years we were together), yet when I was begging him to communicate more and actually seem interested in our relationship, he said that he was the one trying to keep us together and I seemed to be doing everything I could to break us up. Lots of people pointed out his controlling behaviour and I just think that the parallels between him and my DM are really interesting. I think I was so used to doing what other people wanted or expected of me that I didn't question his behaviour much, but now I'm starting to see patterns in the way I have behaved and reacted - it really is because my mum has trained me, isn't it?

OP posts:
golondrina · 11/06/2018 10:50

My first serious boyfriend was from a muslim background and was a bit controlling/obsessive in some ways. I thought at the time and for years afterwards that it had been my reaction to an alchoholic father, choosing a teetoal boyfriend. But actually during therapy around the time of NC with my mum it occurred to me that it was probably because it felt safer and closer to home as it felt more like the controlling enmeshed relationship with my mum.

DH is very different thankfully.

christmaspresentaibu · 11/06/2018 11:43

I can really identify with that, golondrina, the conflict that sort of characterised my relationship with my first boyfriend felt a lot like my relationship with my mum. He used to say that I was a lot like her and looking to cause drama, which is probably true - I felt really insecure in myself and he would hang out with lots of girls and be very pally with a girl who he wanted to go out with first but she turned him down, so he went out with me instead Sad

I think I had an inferiority complex/low self-esteem problem from the way my mum treated me when I was little and, because I was programmed by her to respond to that, I almost sought it out as a teenager/young adult? Like you, it must have felt familiar for me.

My DP is very different to that, like your DH is - he encourages me to do things for myself and is really supportive and patient.

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Aussiebean · 11/06/2018 14:39

You need to not make yourself responsible for their behaviour towards your sister. You are holding up the narrative that you are responsible for them.

You are moving in with your dp. Nothing wrong with that. If they choose to also put pressure on your sister , then that is their problem. They will have to deal with the consequences of that with her. Your sister will go through what you are going through and will have to come up with her own ways of putting up boundaries and consider her own lc or NC.

I would be wary of telling them your new address as well. Depends on if you think they will turn up and give your dps parents hassle or not. Your know them best.

You also dont have to tel them now. And when you do. Don’t explain yourself. Just tell them that you are excited and if they start on, hang up.

christmaspresentaibu · 11/06/2018 19:40

Thanks, aussiebean, I hadn't thought of it like that! I'm expecting that DSis will go through this in a couple of years, she's still only 20.

I am wary of telling them DP's parents' address, it had actually crossed my mind that, in her worst moments, DM might turn up and cause trouble. I don't want that for any of DP's family. I actually expected it to happen last autumn at my current place, I panicked every time I hear a car approaching in case it was them, because I really wouldn't put it past them.

I think I'll sort some of the practicalities of moving in with DP and then tell them once it's sorted. Thank you for your advice Flowers

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golondrina · 11/06/2018 19:54

Totally agree with Aussiebean. You're still trapped in the FOG, but it's not your problem how they deal with it and although you might feel sorry for your sister having to put up with them griping, it's not your problem to worry about.
Also, your relationships in the family are warped. Step back and remember, this is all a normal part of life. Why wouldn't you live with your partner? Why wouldn't you live at his parents for a bit to save up? Plenty of people do, it's all totally normal and nothing to create drama about. Creating drama about this is just weird behaviour from your parents. Perhaps that feels like a revelation, I remember being so enmeshed with my mum that the idea that I could say "hey, this living together now I hava family isn't working, so I'm moving out" seemed like telling me I could climb Everest in my pants.
But it's true, you've just been conditioned to put them first AT ALL TIMES.

christmaspresentaibu · 12/06/2018 08:08

golondrina, I hadn't thought that I was, but you're right, I'm still really caught up in being afraid of my mum, trying to keep her happy and feeling guilty if I don't. Part of me thinks that my sister holds me responsible as well, as though I should share the load of Mum and Dad's emotional problems? And I do feel as though I'm a bad sister, especially because she's younger than me and I should be looking out for her. I want to protect her from our parents somehow, but I don't think she's ready to face up to what they've done/what they're doing. I'll be there for her when she does figure it out, though, I think that's all I can do at this stage? I've offered to drive her back to uni if it gets too much when she's at home, that sort of thing.

Exactly, I have to keep reminding myself that what I'm trying to do is normal and I keep seeking that reassurance from people, like my granny, who keeps saying that I'm doing nothing wrong. I feel really awful for her, because every time I speak to her it's like I shatter the illusion she had of her daughter even more.

I think I'm really starting to see what enmeshment is - like you say, I've been conditioned to put mum before anything else, so she's in all of my thought processes, everything I do I have to consider the impact on her (or I don't have to, but I think I do). We're away again this weekend and it's Father's Day, so I'm sending a card and my sister is doing the same, but I really worry about my dad not having either of us down and he lost his own dad less than three years ago. He never ever talks about him now, my mum didn't support him in any sort of grieving process, it was just more 'head in the sand'. It's all so unhealthy.

I've been doing a bit of research on encouraging empathy and emotional intelligence in children, partly for school and partly for my own future children, and it's very interesting. The more I read, the more I realise how neglected we were, in that sense. I don't remember Mum or Dad ever ever asking how we felt about anything, they were never particularly interested in or aware of our emotions or thoughts?

My colleague was asking about my mum yesterday, because I've been talking about her a bit in the office, and she asked what sort of mum she was when we were growing up - I had to say that she gave us all sorts of big presents, took us on expensive days out to the zoo and things like that, but she was so negative in all of her interactions, with us and with others. Storming off during days out so we would all trail after her trying to make it better, giving us the silent treatment. She would read to us but she didn't play with us, I just remember her sitting and watching me and my sister play with our dolls' house and feeling really self-conscious, like I couldn't play what I actually wanted to and I had to 'act' it, even at that young age.

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AttilaTheMeerkat · 12/06/2018 08:42

Hi Christmas

What Aussiebean and golondrina wrote.

re your comment:-
"I'm still really caught up in being afraid of my mum, trying to keep her happy and feeling guilty if I don't"

See there's the FOG right there, its the gift that keeps on giving. You are absolutely still mired in this and your family of origin are all rotten to the core. Your mother has trained you from early years to put your own needs last with hers first. She made her daughters an extension of her and its all about her. Your dad has ably assisted her in this because he is her hatchet man and cannot be at all relied upon either.

People from such emotionally dysfunctional families really do end up playing roles. Your sister may be favoured in all this and may never come to realise or even want to acknowledge the dysfunction present in her family of origin.

I would not actually bother sending him a father's day card. He made his choice here and he ultimately chose her over you and your sister. He is himself a weak bystander of a man.

christmaspresentaibu · 12/06/2018 09:17

Attila, I wonder if our mum deliberately almost groomed us to be extensions of her, or if she is just so incapable of normal, healthy relationships that this was her 'normal'? My colleague wondered if it was her way of making herself feel loved, because we became enmeshed and needed her, and her being needed, even if it was unhealthy, made her feel better about herself?

Now that we're adults and starting to move away and have our own lives, she feels like she's losing her supply and that's why all the drama and manipulation and mind games are increasing? I think I can understand now what people mean by narcissistic supply.

I really think that it's a case of the chickens coming home to roost though. She has driven us away with her emotional abuse and emotional neglect, so of course we're not close to her. But that's my fault. Hmm I wouldn't say I'm ready for NC yet, even if in the long term it is the right thing to do for my mental health, relationship and future DC, but I can see the chain of events that might lead to it - moving in to DP's parents house and having Christmas with him/them might be the catalyst.

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Aussiebean · 12/06/2018 09:39

Remember you sister is also in the FOG and she has been the victim of the same narrative you have.

She will spend her summer being told that you have betrayed the family, making bad decisions and you are the cause of all her problems.

She may even be roped into being the flying monkey.

That will be hard on you because the guilt piled on and the pressure to conform will increase.

Remember though, she is only 20 and probably hasn’t had enough world experience to realise something is wrong with that narrative.

You can’t make it better for her. Because if you give in so she doesn’t get any pressure, then she has no hope escaping.

Maybe have a few articles ready to send to her when she either does it or complains about certain behaviour.

But certainly keep up your boundaries with her as well.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 12/06/2018 09:59

Attila, I wonder if our mum deliberately almost groomed us to be extensions of her, or if she is just so incapable of normal, healthy relationships that this was her 'normal'?

Yes to both. It is also not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. Their lack of empathy (and I cannot overemphasise a narcissist's lack of empathy) holds no bounds. They are also past masters of the idolise, devalue, discard cycle. Remember too that it is not your fault she is the ways she is; you did not make her that way.

"My colleague wondered if it was her way of making herself feel loved, because we became enmeshed and needed her, and her being needed, even if it was unhealthy, made her feel better about herself?"

Ver possibly. As a child, you don’t immediately realize your mother’s confidence is brittle. She’s always right because she needs to be right. Everything she says goes without question—that’s the way it is with parents when you’re a child.

You please because you are trained to do so. As a nine year old, you don’t take your mother on because, like most school age kids, you want whatever nurturance you can get. Still, she may get mad at you for forgetting your homework, making a mess or annoying her in some random way. You think it’s you and find yourself anxious in her presence.

Then you get a little older, your consciousness continues to evolve, and you realize your mother’s actions and behavior lacks normal maternal nurturing. You see other kids and their parents.

Your mum comes home and demands attention. If you hold back, she takes offense and attacks. She’s tired. She’s irritated. She just wants it her way, and your feelings better align with hers. If you have to hear the word “ungrateful” one more time you’ll scream. But, most times you don’t.

It pays to wait for the rage to abate. If you fight, she fights to win. Many normal parents get into power struggles with their kids, but a narcissistic parent truly needs to win. It is both desperate and scary.
So, you grow up with everyone tiptoeing around mom, hoping that she’s in a good mood, and anxious not to trigger a rage attack.
All it takes is a little frustration, so you better be good.

Narcissistic Mother + Children = Instability
Children experience continued psychological whiplash being raised by a narcissistic mother. You realize she controls with the threat of withdrawal or rage with you and your siblings. Your father goes along to get along. Women like your mother as well cannot do relationships so need a willing enabler to help them, that person here is your dad.

That is why I will not let him off the hook here; he is equally culpable here in your dysfunctional family of origin. And that is also why I would not send him a father's day card.

christmaspresentaibu · 12/06/2018 14:50

Ugh, Aussiebean, I hadn't considered that Sad my lovely little sister

I'm going to keep keeping mum at arm's length and just hope that at some point, when DSis finishes uni and moves away to do her own thing, that she'll see my point of view and realise that I wasn't intentionally heartlessly disowning the family, I was trying to preserve my mental health and live a peaceful, content life.

Attila, the phrase you used, 'your mum comes home and demands attention' really struck a chord with me - she used to literally do that!! I remember either being on study leave or being at home from my first years at uni and I'd been pottering around at home all day, nice and quiet, doing my own thing. Then Mum comes home and starts so I took myself off to my room. She followed me and was in my room demanding to know why I was up there, why didn't I want to speak to her, she had just walked in the door and I was running away from her?! She got in a right strop about that.

I'd forgotten about that one. She used to interrupt my sister's revision too - if DSis was working in the dining room, mum would find an excuse to be in and out constantly, and if DSis was in her bedroom, mum would be constantly up and down the stairs for no reason. Again, it's an entitlement she feels to our time and space and privacy. That house was so tiny and cramped with all the stuff in it and I remember thinking, 'please just leave me alone!!'

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christmaspresentaibu · 12/06/2018 14:56

I remember being very careful never to refer to any of my student houses or my first houseshare after uni as 'home' in case I offended DM. I used to have to text her when I got back and I'd always say 'I'm back in my room' instead of 'I'm home'.

She threw that in my face last September when she really kicked off, when we had just got back from South America - 'get out, go back to [DP's hometown], go home', like I was betraying her by living elsewhere. Bloody weird woman.

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christmaspresentaibu · 13/06/2018 22:23

Had a really long chat with DSis tonight. We remember lots of things that happened to us the same and agree on a lot about mum and dad. But she said that, if they were upset about me moving in with DP, she would sort of see where they were coming from Sad

She asked why we can't live together on our own - because we can't afford to. Why can't I stay where I am - because I'd like to live with DP and not spend over £400 a month on living in one room (not as much as some lodgers pay, I appreciate)

The rest of the conversation went really well and it felt good to be on the same page. But this bit sticks out. Am I really BU to want to move in to DP's parents with him? I doubt every decision I make, I just don't know.

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RandomMess · 13/06/2018 22:29

No YANBU it's "normal" in a happy loving relationship to want to live together somehow. Your DSis would be the same if she were in a relationship I'm sure!

christmaspresentaibu · 13/06/2018 22:39

RandomMess thank you - DSis is in the early stages of her first relationship now so maybe she'll see my point of view a bit further down the line. I just said to DP, all I want is a quiet life with him without having to doubt every decision and all this conflict that goes with everything I decide to do with my life. Sorry, I sound like an angsty teenager Grin just frustrated

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christmaspresentaibu · 13/06/2018 22:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

christmaspresentaibu · 13/06/2018 22:46

Sorry, I don't mean that people with autism are emotionally stunted - that's how I'd describe the characteristics she has interpreted as signs that we have autism. I think that the emotional and psychological abuse we suffered presents itself in a certain way - DSis hates loud noises and cries at them, won't display emotion outwardly - I cry when I'm angry, sad, frustrated and hate speaking up for myself, cannot be assertive with adults.

I'm so sorry if my words were offensive.

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SeaEagleFeather · 13/06/2018 23:20

christmas that all sounds like some symptoms of trauma to me. Have a read of "the body keeps the score". It's rather startling

Im no diagnostician but when you're the daughters of a highly dysfunctional mum, her assessment of the situation is really rather suspect. You'll have symptoms, yes, but not the ones she thinks of; any problems can't possibly be traced back to her.