Struggling with DM - again

[christmaspresentaibu]

I've posted here about my relationship with DM and her behaviour previously. It all blew up around September/October last year and I thought we'd got to a point where DM understood that she couldn't keep putting pressure on me to drive home and see her and DF all the time and texting/calling/messaging constantly - I'm doing a PGCE and live about an hour away from them.

After much crying on the phone and my DF driving up to see me and cry in his car on the first day of my PGCE about how my behaviour (not seeing/talking to them as much as they'd like) was affecting them, I thought I'd finally got through to them that I just don't have the time or the brain capacity to deal with them. Through my PGCE safeguarding training and talking to colleagues, I've come to realise that their behaviour (this year just gone and lots of incidents throughout my childhood) probably constituted emotional abuse. I actually dropped everything one Sunday before Christmas to go to their house and 'have it out' - DM crying on me, asking me to hug her and tell her I loved her, after all which she goes 'I know you hate me.' Just the whole thing was awful.

Despite all this, I went to stay with them for a few days at Christmas and then DP and I drove down to see them again for the evening about three weeks ago.

Since then, I found out that DM and DF have visited the area where I lived but gone home without telling me. I also have to instigate any contact at all now - so it's one extreme to the other. I sent DM a small/token gift I'd thought about and chosen to show her I was thinking of her, but when I messaged her last night to ask whether she liked it, her response was 'it would've been nice to see you last week but never mind' (schools in our area were on half-term but I had PGCE assignments and planning to do, plus wanting to spend time with DP and my friends).

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm trying really hard to weigh all this up in my head (I don't really have anyone to talk to who understands, apart from a colleague at work who has similar parents). Am I being a shit daughter? I'm trying to come to terms with their behaviour and still be kind to them, while at the same time do the best I can in my training, look after my mental health and enjoy my relationship with DP. Nothing I do for them is ever enough.

If anyone can advise me on this (again, sorry), I'd be really grateful.

Thanks for responding so late, SeaEagleFeather. I'm really convinced that we keep all these episodes inside us and they manifest themselves in different ways. DSis said she learnt not to cry in front of DM because it made DM angry. From the age of five or six, she learnt that. How awful is that, that you can't go to your mum for comfort and reassurance at five years old?

She said dad has admitted to her that he left all the emotional stuff to mum because, when he was growing up, that had been his mum's role. He left us to fend for ourselves against an unfeeling person because it was not a man's job to parent his children? I'm beginning to see what Attila means

I had a bit of a low ebb just now. I've never had suicidal thoughts before but I could just see my life stretching out in front of me with all these happy events in it and I thought about how my mum will make each one about my betrayal of her and I thought the only way to be rid of her is to get out myself. I can't inflict this on myself or on DP for the rest of our lives. I didn't do anything and I'm back in bed now. Sorry, I feel like I'm being really melodramatic but I just wanted to write it out.

I'm not going to contact her. I just want her out of my life and to heal and I need peace.

This post has given me food for thought, on a topic I never even really knew anything about. I just thought my mam was 'emotional' hmm...

Thinking of you OP xx

twinkletwinklelittlerainbow morning! It's only recently that I've started to unpick all the stuff about my DM in all its hideousness. I'd always thought she 'didn't do' emotions, because that's what my dad said about her (but if he was aware of that then why didn't he step up and fucking parent us, in spite of being a man? ) I think it just all starts to unravel when you pull the thread and at the moment I'm struggling with the enormity of it all. She is such a damaged person and for that I do really feel sorry for her, but she has inflicted such damage on us too. I really hope you can work things out in a way that's healthy for you I found it starts slowly and now it's snowballed a bit, especially joining the dots with my sister.

DSis said last night that DM commented on her weight a lot - for example, after DSis had been ill for several weeks, DM told her she looked slimmer which was a good thing. Another incident, she told DSis to 'ruffle up' her top a bit to hide her stomach DSis wasn't even big! Not that it would in any way have been justifiable even if she was, but she was just a normal girl - she said she was 10-11 years old when those incidents occurred.

We agreed on loads of things last night about how we see Mum and her behaviour and why our dad is like he is as well. So it was good to know we're on the same page with that. The moving-in-with-DP thing makes me sad, but maybe she will see things differently either when she has to try and rent and save a deposit at the same time or when she wants to live with her boyfriend.

and I thought the only way to be rid of her is to get out myself. I can't inflict this on myself or on DP for the rest of our lives.

it can and will change, as long as you keep self aware. I think actually you're still near the beginning of the journey of being aware of how damaging she has been. At some level it feels all encompassing and it's even harder right now becuase you know a major battle is coming. It does get better, chrismas, it really does.

Oh christmas I'm so sorry, it's so hard and you're right at the beginning of the journey, just beginning to put the pieces together and it's all flooding you with realisation and emotions and it's so hard. It's like the scales fall from your eyes and you begin to understand but it's like someone has ripped the foundations from your life.
I also had that feeling that my mum was "different", "emotional" but excused it as she'd had a "hard life". I also felt, because we were so enmeshed that we were close. But it turned out she would throw me under the bus if I wasn't playing the role she wanted me to and that really fucking hurt, the realisation that we weren't close at all, in fact she didn't really know me, it was me investing and being "close" iyswim, she was just leeching it up and didn't have my back in return.

It was hard to go from thinking I had this close relationship with my mother to realising that she was poisoning my life and treating my DH like crap. Sounds like your mum guns for your DP a bit too.

It's really hard but it does get better. You say you want a peaceful life. I felt that too. When I had therapy, my therapist asked what I wanted to acheive ultimately and I said that, peace, no drama, a calm, happy life. And Atilla said on here "you will never find peace as long as your mother is in your life". She was right. I'm not telling you to go NC, that's a hard road. But it may yet come to that, if she's anything like mine, LC will provoke a drama that will ultimately led to NC, because she'll just take it so far there's no other option.
My mother seemed to see my DH as competition and over a long period, my meeting him and getting married/living together/starting a family seemed to create such jealous that she tried to ruin it. Insidiously for a long time. But she ultimately set up a choose him or me dynamic. I choose him because he doesn't treat me like shit.

Anyway, be aware that she may try to force the issue, but if she does, that is her doing. Stay firm. you are doing nothing wrong by wanting to move in with your boyfriend to save up. It's totally normal.

I recognise a lot of things in both you and your sister. I also find it very hard to show emotion in front of my mother, because I decided, when I was six, that I had to be the strong one in the family and that's how it stayed. (A decision I took the day after my dad died, when it was announced in a church service and both my mum and sister were crying.) The rare times I have she ignores it:

• I spent a weekend hearing my sister talk about "my parents" and "my grandparents" in front of me, but my mother refused to let me talk about a holiday we'd taken together (me and her), out of earshot of the bitch, in case it upset her. I ended up in tears (OTT, but the whole weekend had been awful). On the phone to my mother later she told me I hadn't been upset earlier. Hmmmmm.....

• we visited my cousins, and he spent about half an hour tearing apart my life choices, and being incredibly rude about it all. As we went to leave his wife apologised to me for how her husband had treated me. My mum said I hadn't been upset, despite me sitting next to her at the time and her being fully aware of the conversation.

• I witnessed the aftermath of a fatal road accident on the way to uni one year. My mother was in the car with me, but oblivious. It gave me nightmares for weeks. A few months later, when we were in a car with my sister, in similar conditions, my mother mentioned it. She knew fine well what my sister was like, yet sat there saying nothing when my sister pushed, and pushed, for details. I was close to a full-blown panic attack, and yet my mother did nothing.

My role in the family is not to have emotions. So I don't tell my mother anything about what happens to me. This does mean that I keep hearing about what a hard time my sister is having whilst thinking "What about me?" but I know that, even if I were to tell her, my problems would be dismissed out of hand. She knows some of the aftermath, but doesn't care enough to find out what actually happened.

golondrina I can identify with so much of what you've been through too, I'm really sorry. Yep, it completely rips the foundation out of your life, because your relationship with your parents is at the core of who you are, isn't it?

DSis and I agreed yesterday that mum thinks she's owed a 'close' mother/daughter relationship without doing anything to encourage it - no emotional closeness, support, encouragement - but we have to pay homage to her as the 'matriarch', which I think could be how she sees herself? DSis did say that she doesn't get anywhere near the amount of shit that I do, and last weekend when she was home, my parents talk about me pleasantly to other people - but they can't extend that courtesy to me, actually be kind or try to understand that I'm just trying to do my training, save for a place to live and be happy with my boyfriend. Normal stuff! They make me feel like I'm being so cruel and cold and unfair by just being (as far as I can gather) a normal-ish 24-year-old woman.

I keep thinking - would my friend's parents be angry and upset and jealous if she moved in with her boyfriend's parents to save up? Would DP's parents react that way if we were in a situation where we could move in with mine? No, because they're not emotionally bloody children!

TimeIHadaNameChange I'm so sorry you went through all of those things. I recognise a lot of what you've been through in my life too - my feelings and experiences are dismissed by my parents or I'm attacked for my decisions, but my sister is allowed to do what she likes. She actually feels that they were never interested in her growing up or in her life at all, but they're bloody obsessed with me. I wish they'd leave me alone!

Remember you sis is still only 20. Once she moves out of uni and in the world she will a greater idea of things. Like moving in with dp and in laws to save money. I bet that is not something many of her peers are doing or thinking about so she hasn’t experienced it yet. Plus being out of school/uni/ home and into ‘the real workd’ Will also help with it. But like parenthood. Child free couples have all these great ideas until they actually have one. Then it all changes. She will get there.

I wouldn’t think you are autistic. I would think that you struggle with emotions because you haven’t been allowed to have any independent from your parents. You have been brought up waiting to be told how to feel.

Then you start having freedom and something happens that requires emotion or others react to and you are waiting to be told how you feel.

It’s hard to learn as an adult. Most people learn it as children. Recognise what the emotion is. How to feel it and how to show it and how to move on from it. We have not.

So we either don’t understand that and people think we are cold or autistic. Or we have to go through it trial and error (maybe even jeopardising relationships) until we work it out

Aussiebean I know, I do need to cut her some slack. I think I got defensive because I'm already geared up to have to explain myself to DM and I didn't expect it from DSis? You're completely right, it will be a completely alien thing and probably a bit of a shock when she comes to start saving herself while renting.

Being told how to feel is completely it. Or hiding feelings because you know that's how to try and stay safe. I think DSis comes across to strangers as the 'cold' one and I'm the one who's tried to work things out through trial and error and yep, jeopardising relationships. I was a nightmare with my ex-boyfriend, jealous, possessive, the whole shebang. I'm desperate not to repeat my awful behaviour with DP, but it is trial and error a little bit, like you say.

Thanks, aussie, you're like the voice of reason

How are things, christmas?

Hi golondrina, thanks for asking! It's been very quiet mum-wise, I've only sent her a message to tell her I passed the QTS/teaching part of my course since I last posted. Just a minimal response, 'well done you,' but at least she's not kicking off about anything.

I'm starting to realise a lot about the way I behave and the way I react to things and how that's linked to how I was brought up. DP and I had a disagreement on Saturday - we were out with friends in London and I needed the loo, so I followed DP and a friend into a pub to use the loo. They decided not to stay in that pub and left without me, not realising I'd been in there, and I phoned DP to ask where they'd all gone. My gut instinct was, 'I've been left behind and he left without telling me', so I was upset when I phoned to ask where he was (they'd got back to the station before they realised I was missing). He was unhappy about how I spoke to him (I asked where the fuck he was, and I'm so ashamed of my language) because he hadn't realised I was there. We'd both had a couple of drinks and I ended up getting teary about being left behind, the fact he was upset with me and how embarrassed I was that I'd sworn at him.

We never fall out and I'm still so ashamed of how I reacted. I think that situation set off a few different things, though - I was left on my own in a pub in the middle of London (DM used to drive off and leave us) and I felt like I was in the wrong for being upset about being left (I was never and I'm still never allowed to express annoyance at my parents' behaviour because they're right and I'm wrong).

It's such a non-issue which was (embarrassingly) exaggerated because we'd had a drink, but I realised how I've still not dealt with so many things, so I booked in for an initial private counselling session which will be at the start of July. Even though DP and I have long since made up and I've apologised to him (and he's apologised to me, even though he didn't realise he'd left me), I'm really really gutted to have behaved like that. So in the next few weeks, once my course has finished, I'm going to put a lot more energy into working stuff out and trying to process and regulate my emotions in a more healthy way, for his benefit and for mine.

Thank you for checking in xx

Your mum sounds awful, your dad just as bad. Its horribly interesting how their behaviour impacts on us doesnt it? One of mine does the silent treatment and i have to really squash an urge to fill comfortable silence. I feel anxious by it even on occasion with DH.

It does sound ultimately like nc is best for you. What does your dp say about your parents? Does he understand?

Isn’t it awful when you are actually stunned when you parent gives you a compliment. I remember one. She said ‘where all proud of you.’ When I did my honours thesis. I still can’t work it out and wondered where my Mum was and who this person was. Nothing before or since.

Don’t worry about the fight with your dp. People have fights. We get annoyed. Wrong end of the stick, we have drunk alcohol etc....

WHat actually matters is the aftermath.

Did you go off in a huff? Silent treatment? Refuse to apologise? Refuse to acknowledge your part? Not talk it over? Not promise that you will take care for it not to happen again? And mean it.

That’s what narcs do. That is what you have learnt to do in times of stress.

This is where trail and error comes in. Something happened. You reacted. You reflected and realise it was an over reaction, you apologised and talked it through.

That what emotionally stable people do. We just have to work out how to do it ourselves.

WhiteWalkerWife in a way it's really interesting joining the dots and thinking, 'oh well I do this because they did that'. But mostly it's really bloody sad, isn't it? I'm really sorry that yours does the silent treatment too, I can't even begin to imagine just 'switching off' from a child like that - when I was tiny, my DM would never acknowledge me even when I got to the point of crying and shouting 'mummy mummy' till I felt ill. Horrible memories, who does that to a small child?

DP doesn't comment that much, he lets me take the lead on them but he has said that he thinks maybe my mum is bipolar, because he's seen the full range of silent treatment to hysterical sobbing to being completely, coldly normal again. I think it's more likely to be narcissistic traits, but neither of us is sure. I think he's starting to understand, but it's such strange behaviour and a weird environment to grow up in that I'm not sure he can?

Aussiebean it's strange isn't it? My mum has tried praise before but it comes out a bit wrong - last autumn when I'd just started my PGCE and she was causing havoc, she went on a spiel about how they were proud of me and they all knew that I would be a headteacher in no time I think it might have been coming from the right place but it felt so jarring - I don't want to be a headteacher and I've never expressed a desire to be one. What I wanted was for my mum to be supportive through my training. The cynical part of me thinks that she can only think of me in terms of the glory I bring her, and her daughter being a headteacher is a real coup?

Once DP had come back to find me, I was relieved he'd come to get me and that I wasn't on my own, but he was quite understandably annoyed at my language. I went for my default response of crying because I thought I'd ruined the day, maybe because when my mum was cross it was usually because of something I'd done, or sometimes something DSis had done. The thing is, DP is quite a sensitive soul too, so then he felt really bad for making me upset. I was a bit huffy about it but I didn't do any of the silent treatment or refusing to apologise thankfully. Initially it was a disagreement about who was in the wrong but we both apologised to each other and after that we did have a really nice evening. I think I'm quite used to reflecting on how I've behaved (useful for the PGCE!), although sometimes it manifests itself as doubt in my decisions and about myself. I think in an ideal world, I'd be able to reflect before I do something stupid, IYSWIM? To properly judge the situation and go, actually no that doesn't require that reaction etc. But I think the fact we'd had a couple of drinks didn't help.

Thank you all for keeping in touch and talking stuff through. I really appreciate you all, are you all keeping well?

"DP doesn't comment that much, he lets me take the lead on them but he has said that he thinks maybe my mum is bipolar, because he's seen the full range of silent treatment to hysterical sobbing to being completely, coldly normal again. I think it's more likely to be narcissistic traits, but neither of us is sure"

I would think your mother is a narcissist. What you have written of here re her is precisely the sort of behaviours such disordered of thinking people show their now adult offspring.

And she would like you to be a headteacher because that also looks good on her. In her eyes you are an extension of her.

Hi Attila, thank you - a lot of the signs are there but I was wary of using that label because I know I can't diagnose something like that, but it is useful to be able to attach a name to it, I think. It's somehow easier to be able to say, 'my mum is narcissistic' than 'my mum is bloody hard work and does XYZ', maybe because it's shorthand.

I think it's really hard for other people to get their heads around it, if their own families are kind and supportive and more normal. I don't think DP's mum quite gets it, although she knows a bit about what my mum is like, because it's really hard to comprehend that some mums don't have their children's best interests at heart and have no capacity for empathy etc.

Hi all. I heard from mum again yesterday, she messaged on Sunday night but I didn't pick it up till yesterday afternoon. It seems that she's struggling with her MS symptoms and wants a bit of sympathy, which I can completely understand. However, it's not without the guilt trips - 'haven't heard from you for a couple of weeks', 'love you and miss you lots', with lots of kisses. From a 'normal' mum, that wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary, but I know that mine is testing me and finding me a bit lacking. But I don't know whether I'm being harsh on her

The thing is, I haven't missed her. It's been nice not to think about contacting her for these past few weeks and I actually felt a bit upset when I saw she'd messaged me. I think DSis has the same problem - when we had our big catch-up a couple of weeks ago, she said that she feels obliged to keep in touch with our parents but doesn't actually feel like she needs or wants to talk to them, IYSWIM? That's how I feel too. I'd be happier not having to think about DM, not having to second-guess myself and think about what might set her off next.

Also, she never supported us when we needed it, so part of me thinks, why should we be burdened with her illness, especially when she kept it a secret for years and only told me (seemingly) as another guilt-trip?

We're going away in a few weeks and DP says I should see them before we go, to keep the peace. He's probably right. I think I can cope with seeing them for an afternoon every six weeks or so and a few messages in between, but DM always starts to pull back. Sorry, just venting again.

You need to work out what works for you. If you don’t want to see her don’t.

WHile your dp is well meaning, he doesn’t get it.

Took a long time for my dh to get it, although occasionally he will say something that shows he doesn’t 100%. But that’s fine. Because of that we have a great relationship with his parents and my dcs get loving grandparents.

Maybe reply something generic.

‘Sorry to hear it is playing up. All good here. Just plodding along.’

Oh and if 6 weeks it too much. Make it every 2 months. All this is trial and error

Hi Christmas,

re your comment:-
"We're going away in a few weeks and DP says I should see them before we go, to keep the peace. He's probably right"

No he is not right. Anyway, what do you want to do her more importantly and why should you at all "keep the peace" here?. Sorry Christmas's DP but you are so very wrong here. Appeasing such people like your partner's mother simply does not work and makes you feel worse. Chamberlain tried appeasement and that did not work out well either.

You as both a couple and individuals also have nothing to apologise for because this is all on OPs mother rather than you or OP.

I do not blame you entirely though, you were probably brought up in a nice, and importantly as well, an emotionally healthy family. Unfortunately you have to realise that people like Christmas's mother do not and never play by the "normal" rules of familial relations. The rule book goes out the window completely when it comes to dysfunctional families.

You Christmas have not missed her unsurprisingly and that suggests an awful lot. When she has phoned you she has tried to guilt trip you; this is all part of her MO to keep you under her control and she really does see you as an extension of her. What she is doing here to you is par for the course when it comes to such disordered of thinking people.

Thank you both. Aussiebean, I think that my DP does get some of it, but not all of it. At the moment, I'm trying to curb my spending on unnecessary things so that we can save for a deposit quicker and told DP that I want to stop buying random things (books etc). He made the fair point that one of the things that annoys me about DM is that she buys me so much stuff, like 'that's what annoys you about your mum'. But it's a bit different, she's using expensive presents as a power play thing, every birthday and Christmas was 'did you get enough?!', whereas I buy small things to try and 'improve' myself in some way, because I think I need it... So I think it's not quite the same, but maybe it is!

Attila, DP was brought up in a nice family, but they weren't particularly loving and demonstrative. I'm starting my counselling next Wednesday which I'm actually looking forward to. Thank you both for your advice

Unfortunately (fortunately for him) Is that he will never understand the emotional push and pull that something like being given a gift for you mother holds.

You buy something for you because you like it. It gives you pleasure. It adds to your life.

She gives gift because it is something she would like and of course you are an extension of her so you will like it.
To manipulate you. To have you endebted to her. To give her something to complain about. To show off about to her friends. Isn’t she such a good mum.

At no point is her gift giving coming from the idea that you will enjoy it because it is to your taste and it’s will give you pleasure.

He will stugglw to understand that

Hi all, I'm just posting because I had my counselling 'booking in'-type appointment yesterday, hope that's OK.

The woman I spoke to asked a bit about why I was seeking counselling and I let out way too much to start with but she said that it sounds like I'm not meeting my mum's expectations for me, which made me feel worse to be honest. She also said that the counsellor (this particular person won't be my counsellor going forward) will consider both sides of the story and that it would be such a shame if all this means that my mum loses her daughter.

Having had months of great advice from all of you on here, none of that sat at all right with me and I feel even more confused than I did before. At least when I went to the initial NHS appointment, I really felt like the practitioner understood. I've read before about avoiding counsellors who have a bias towards keeping families together and I wonder if this is one? Maybe 'my' counsellor will be different?

There's not much choice of counselling practices in my town but I could find someone else in the city nearby if I had to. Just feeling a bit confused - I think that this woman didn't understand that some people unfortunately have parents like mine.

I'm driving down to see her tomorrow and I'd arranged it before I realised that it clashed with the bloody football, so now it's an 'occasion' type thing. Every part of me is screaming that I don't want to be anywhere near her. I keep getting what I think are intrusive thoughts about her touching me and being too close and not leaving me alone. The past couple of days I've been annoyed by everything that I say, because I think I sound like her. I'm feeling pretty bloody close to cutting contact, but there isn't a recent 'thing' that she's done, it's more that I feel incredibly, irreconciliably angry with her for ruining me. Imagine how different I could be now if we had had a loving, nurturing mother instead of the dysfunctional one we got dealt? I don't know if I can forgive her, I need space from her but I have to see her tomorrow before we go away

You'll probably get some better advice from someone who knows more about counselling but that sounds highly unprofessional to me. Jumping to a conclusion after one preliminary appointment. It sounds as if the counsellor has her own agenda. And you do not have to go tomorrow. It is entirely true to say you're not feeling well enough to make the journey. Please try not to feel obligated.

I think if the counseller spouts any crap like that you should find another.

I know what you mean about the sitting too close. My mum used to do it, like sit right up against me on the sofa when there was loads of other room and it used to make my skin crawl, even long before we fell out. I never really knew why, but I guess it felt smothering.

I can give you a recommendation for a counsellor specialising on CBT and very good on dysfunctional families/narcs. He's in Dublin (but uses Skype or Google Hangouts) I did it that way rather than in person because I live in Spain. He's not cheap though.