Struggling with DM - again

[christmaspresentaibu]

I've posted here about my relationship with DM and her behaviour previously. It all blew up around September/October last year and I thought we'd got to a point where DM understood that she couldn't keep putting pressure on me to drive home and see her and DF all the time and texting/calling/messaging constantly - I'm doing a PGCE and live about an hour away from them.

After much crying on the phone and my DF driving up to see me and cry in his car on the first day of my PGCE about how my behaviour (not seeing/talking to them as much as they'd like) was affecting them, I thought I'd finally got through to them that I just don't have the time or the brain capacity to deal with them. Through my PGCE safeguarding training and talking to colleagues, I've come to realise that their behaviour (this year just gone and lots of incidents throughout my childhood) probably constituted emotional abuse. I actually dropped everything one Sunday before Christmas to go to their house and 'have it out' - DM crying on me, asking me to hug her and tell her I loved her, after all which she goes 'I know you hate me.' Just the whole thing was awful.

Despite all this, I went to stay with them for a few days at Christmas and then DP and I drove down to see them again for the evening about three weeks ago.

Since then, I found out that DM and DF have visited the area where I lived but gone home without telling me. I also have to instigate any contact at all now - so it's one extreme to the other. I sent DM a small/token gift I'd thought about and chosen to show her I was thinking of her, but when I messaged her last night to ask whether she liked it, her response was 'it would've been nice to see you last week but never mind' (schools in our area were on half-term but I had PGCE assignments and planning to do, plus wanting to spend time with DP and my friends).

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm trying really hard to weigh all this up in my head (I don't really have anyone to talk to who understands, apart from a colleague at work who has similar parents). Am I being a shit daughter? I'm trying to come to terms with their behaviour and still be kind to them, while at the same time do the best I can in my training, look after my mental health and enjoy my relationship with DP. Nothing I do for them is ever enough.

If anyone can advise me on this (again, sorry), I'd be really grateful.

So why can’t you be selfish?

Why can’t you ask for help?

We will choose how to spend our time. You are not making us and none of us think you are being selfish.

But ask yourself why you don’t think you can’t seek out help to make your life better, to help you be in good relationship and raise happy health children?

Is that your thinking, or your mums narrative?

Remember, by asking a narc their side of the story, you will not get the honest truth. You will get any version that makes them look good.

They will lie and play the victim. Like telling me how awfully brother was for not allowing her to drive my nephew around because he thought she was a bad driver.

A year later, she is driving my niece. Apparently my bro had said not to worry about buying a car seat. She could just use theirs.

But in her mind, it was a chance to gain sympathy from me and whoever else will listen about how horribly her son treats her.

The narc is always the victim, it's what gives their life meaning. My mum said I was selfish for moving away at 23. I went to work in Portugal for 9 months. She said it was selfish and i had no right to do it, and leave her alone (I have a brother). Nuts.

Huge hugs and waves to so many i 'know' on here.

Can't add anything better to this, but it's definitely pinging on my radar too, so many things to identify with.

I worry now that my OH's ex is a narc - i've said as much to him already. His DD is at real risk from this awful woman.

((((hug))))

golondrina you mentioned the drive offs - i still remember when your M did that to you to go to your DB flat, there was the woe is me stuff too about towels or some such too IIRC

I'm so glad you are doing so well. Your comment about possible divorce was doing history a disservice, she was absolutely gunning for your OH, that was what started all this for you, it was an awful time!

Yes, it was a bit of an eye opener. It's not easy, especially as when she eventually actually emigrated she went scorched earth and slagged me off to the people who bought her house, who then preceeded to gossip about me and blank me in public for the next 3 years.
But, NC lets me be me at last. It's just always endless endless drama with my mum.

Aussiebean thank you so much, that really means a lot. I'm caught between feeling 'it's OK to be selfish about this when I've had to put my parents' needs first for so long' and 'no, you know you're really being an awful person and only thinking of yourself'. It's a tricky balance to get right, I think.

About the narc always being the victim, that's another feeling I have - that I'm always casting myself as hard-done-by by talking about the way our parents brought us up. Sometimes I feel like I'm overdoing the 'poor me' thing, especially if I talk about this IRL with other people, because I think it's a really hard thing to comprehend, an emotionally neglecting/abusive mother, and I'm probably not very good at articulating it either. I've tried talking to DP's mum about it before but it's really hard to explain. The most she knows is that my mum is 'difficult'.

golondrina I found your thread and read part of your story. I'm so sorry for what your mother put you through. I really feel for you re. the endless drama - I think what most of us would like is quite a quiet, unremarkable life but our mothers, for reasons best known to themselves, have to make everything so dramatic and such hard work. My ex-boyfriend used to say I loved drama and we fell out all the time - now I see where the pattern comes from

Hissy how much time does your SD spend with you? If she has time and space with loving adults, away from her mum, that might make all the difference in the long run, to know that she had a sanctuary where she was loved and appreciated and listened to.

christmas SD comes every other weekend more or less. If for whatever she misses a week it’s actually noticeable

She doesn’t exhibit stress release in the way that she did, and thankfully the mother has stopped with the daily calls so we don’t have to watch her get increasingly tense or asking what time it is a hundred times a minute. We insist her phone is left downstairs now, it seemed to prevent the early morning calls she got for a while resulting in us waking up to her being moody stressed

The tricks this woman pulls to try to manipulate her d to get her dad to do things (usually money) are absolutely astounding in their heartlessness

There is also a lot of “you aren’t good at x, or y always worries you”

I had a lifetime being told I was this that and the other in one way or another by my parents and the effects never leave you. I show my oh all the time how my self image is set by the bullshit I was told and the efforts for me to shake that thinking is exhausting and excruciating. He gets it, but is limited as to what he can do. I can’t see her choosing to leave there unless something massive happens. Which is possible, but I’d rather she not have to got through something that seismic.

I know it’s not my business, but it breaks my heart to see what she goes through and what this woman will do to get what she wants.

She does have a haven in us, which is great. It’s the most we can do for now

Hissy I'm really glad your SD gets to spend time with you like that. How old is she, if you don't mind me asking?

I think it's the sort of thing she'll really appreciate when she looks back and starts to think about how her mum is treating her. It is so so hard when you're in the midst of it and, for me, it was only really at uni that I first became properly aware that something wasn't right, in spite of everything that had gone before that.

When your parents try to dictate your personality and likes/dislikes to you, that is incredibly hard. I found it so frustrating having to listen to my mum talking about me to other people saying, 'Christmas is XYZ' when I knew I wasn't. The most memorable one was when I went away with DP for our first holiday together and I got food poisoning. When I told DM, she said, 'oh dear, and you're not very good at being poorly, are you?' DP commented how I'd actually just sort of got on with it quietly and tried not to cause a fuss. When my mum was ill, however (normally a hangover, although she said she had an allergy to alcohol ), she would have to go to bed for days and we'd be summoned to visit her upstairs and she would really ham up the illness. She did it on Christmas Day once. So no, I'm not the one who's 'not very good at being poorly' - more often than not, it's massive projection, and I'd hazard a guess that it's the same for your SD and her mum.

It is your business, because you're a parent to your SD, just like your DP is, and it sounds like you're doing a great job in looking out for her and giving her that haven

When your parents try to dictate your personality and likes/dislikes to you grrr yes. My bio mother used to say "you're just like me!" It's been an incredible motivator to do better to get away from the horror of being like her. It's a nasty thing to say, really, but I'd rather walk into the sea and swim til I sank than be the sort of mother she was.

Pre-teen christmas so I forsee clashes in the not too distant future and I can't think that will go down well.

Things like if she's not well and I get her a blanket, basic medicine etc, her and her dad look at me in wonder like I'm Florence Nightingale. Even my DC noticed their reaction and was shocked because caring for someone when they are ill is a basic right?

In the past we've had her with a cough that ran for MONTHS. Every other weekend we'd make sure she had regular cough mixture and it really helped. Then it all got undone in the week. She had no cough meds at home, I asked, and all she had was what we had at home and the cough sweets she ended up rationing in the week to get her through. They just alleviated the symptoms, but clearly never actually got her anywhere. I was fuming. It just isn't right! I can do nothing though, other than what I can do on our time with her.

I'm not a fluffy kinda person, I didn't have any fuss made over me when ill, but even my lot made sure I had medicine. My DM was very ill when a young woman, so it was all relative to that I suppose, yes I did just get on with things, but if I was ill I got treated. I have basic illness staples at home, just in case. that's what you do, right? it comes with having a baby. Calpol/Medised/Bonjela teething stuff/cough meds/plasters/salvon/dettol. You just drop the baby stuff for ibuprofen etc as they get older, but the idea is the same.

so yes, I know that at least there is a glimmer of hope that she will see what love is and that she has a voice nearby that says "No, you CAN do x or y and perhaps it doesn't come automatically to do z, but it just means you have to put a bit more effort in and you WILL be OK."

I think The Truth sank in when i got married. to the point that i ended up with pretty damned near terminal depression. Life was so different.

I could bore you all for years with the little jibes my dad's made over the years (all unchallenged by DM I dare say) it's not heinous abuse, its insidious destruction of a self-esteem over years/decades. DM was far more under the radar with her resentment of me, she is a lot more clever than she lets on, she let my dad be considered the mean one, but the shit she's pulled with me and my DC for that matter have been astoundingly cruel. To the point that even now I struggle to believe the things she has done.

Urgh, SeaEagleFeather, I can imagine! I'm completely certain that I would do anything not to be the same sort of mother as DM, so I can completely sympathise. I wonder how they manage to see those perceived similarities, when we see ourselves as so different to them? Is it another form of massive projection? Or the fact that they have no empathy and so genuinely can't appreciate that other people are different to them?

Hissy, maybe those teen clashes will lead to your SD spending more time with you? Not that I would wish them on anybody, particularly a child with a NParent. Every child acts out at some point as they test their independence but NParents take it very personally, don't they? Maybe your SD will start to be able to see the wood for the trees a bit more then.

The Truth hurts so bloody much, doesn't it? I'm so sorry for the depression you went through when you realised. I had a moment last night (I knew the cry was coming soon) when I thought about how my dad has stopped talking to me. Last year he was using me as an emotional support and I feel that I've pushed him away and he is alone with my mum now. But at the same time, their marriage isn't my business, really, and their relationship issues are not mine or my sister's to solve. I just feel so so guilty to think of him depressed and alone.

Hissy, if it helps you, let it out here! You won't bore us. Completely agree that this kind of abuse is insidious and can be so hard to put a finger on.

Your dads should not be using you as an emaotional support. That is very wrong of a parent to do, child or adult.

Look up enablers.

Aussiebean I said that to my parents, but they said that 'things change' as children get older, meaning you should feel able to offload emotionally on to your (adult) children about your marriage?

I think it's another case of blurred boundaries, where I feel responsible for my dad's emotions and behaviour as well as my mum's. I'll look up enablers, thank you x

Adult children can support parents and vice versa, but that's not what we're talking about with parents like this, is it? It's making you feel responsible for their emotions, with no corresponding support for you. It's all about them.
So, don't feel guilty, that's the FOG talking.

The Truth then christmas wasn't even close though.

The truth of a parent moving house and deliberately excluding you from it hurt. the 'Well we were never really that close' reply to my raising the fact that I was hurt and bewildered by her decision to do that (all the while cry buckets to all and sundry that I'd not said goodbye to her hurt

Being NC hurts, but it doesn't harm. I suppose that is all we can take solace from

christmas love, if your dad is alone, he is so because that is the choice HE made. Only he can save himself at the end of the day. They tell us on planes to fit our own air masks first before helping others.

As DSD gets older, she will be more independent, and that means she will be able to arrange her own visits/transport etc, then whenever things get tough - which on a level she DOES get already - then she can come to ours. In time, things will be fine. I know they will.

golondrina I think that my dad has done that a bit, especially when he was in such a desperate place last autumn. I've been told quite a lot by my parents not to get cross or get upset if I object to how I've been treated by them, although they are allowed to get cross and upset with me - I'm just not allowed to call them out on their behaviour. When my dad drove up here on the first day of my PGCE, one of the things he said that stuck in my mind most is that he thinks that he and my sister are 'quite well-adjusted people' - implying that he groups me and my mum together as not well-adjusted, just because I'm the one she has the conflict with and I've called her out on it?! I'm the one that my mum has a problem with, so it must naturally follow that I'm at fault and therefore not sane?! I might be overanalysing here and seeing things that aren't there but it got to me that, if I challenge the crap my parents throw at me, they think that I'm mad or bad or both?!

Hissy, I'm so sorry, that's such a cruel thing for your parents to have done to you. it's the strange lies that hurt the most isn't it? My mum did similar when I moved to DP's hometown recently, telling people I'd moved without telling her where I was going - despite the fact I'd written down the address for her on a piece of paper to keep.

Your DSD is so lucky to have such supportive parent figures in you and your DH. You're doing a great job x

Yeah, mine said I'd forced her to emigrate. Cos, yeah I put a gun to her head and all that. She stormed off in a huff. I think she thought I'd beg her not to and when i called her bluff she felt she had to go through with it.

WTF, golondrina, as if anybody can force a person to emigrate?! I think mine thinks the same, she can say the most horrible things and expect me to sort of kowtow (is that the word?) to her and grovel and beg for forgiveness.

When you call their bluff, obviously that makes us the worst people in the world. They conveniently forget (or overlook) the fact that they were blatantly trying to manipulate us!

Something I'm trying to work on is how I approach things when I'm not happy about something, for a couple of reasons. One is that I never feel quite justified in being unhappy about something, I feel like I must have made a mistake and be wrong for feeling that way. And the other is that, if I do manage to tell myself that I'm justified in feeling that way, I need to express that in a healthy way, IYSWIM? So I'm catching myself before I make any passive aggressive comments, for example, and trying to be the bigger person and explain what it was that made me feel put-out or whatever in a mature way. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself properly, but I've had such shit role models in terms of how to handle conflicts or disagreements that I have to really think about the sensible way to approach things I'm not happy about. It doesn't have to happen often, because generally I'm very content with my lot (apart from the obvious parent issues), but it's something I'm keeping tabs on. Can anyone else relate to this?

Sorry, I think 'conflict' was the wrong word to use - I didn't really mean anything that serious. But I'm working on just how to process and address any little niggly issues. The example I had growing up were either 'if you're unhappy with somebody, give them the silent treatment until they eventually work out what they've done wrong', 'shout and scream and throw a cup of tea across the room', or somewhere in between. Not healthy and not mature!

christmas, your instincts are good here. Have you considered assertiveness training? done well, it's really good. Teaches you how to state your position and needs without getting overemotional or manipulative.

The problem with growing up with emotionally stunted people is we don’t learn how to deal with things healthily. all the mistakes we should have learned as teenagers and early adults aren’t made and if we are lucky enough we eventually work it out.

But by then reputations have made, habit has formed and our self esteem is rock bottom. Many are also in abusive relationships.

So we have to do it the hard way. Trial and error, therapy, self help books.

It’s a hard and long process unfortunately. You have to learn different strategies, then learn which ones you can actually do, have a go, fail, try again agonise over, stress over, cry over it.

But it is worth it. Your confidence builds, things progress, you do things you never thought possible.

You just have to forgive yourself every time you get it wrong and try again.

Also remember that you should be proud of yourself that you realise that you have problems and are endeavouring to change. And not 70 years old, angry and bitter at life and how unfair it is.

Thank you for your posts. I saw mum and dad today, they came up for lunch today.

It was nice apart from one comment from DM. I had my hair cut on Friday and I mentioned it being shorter than it had been and DM said, 'well we never see you so...' and I thought 'here we go'

But the rest of the afternoon was fine until DM messaged to say they're home again and then she said 'I miss not being able to phone you so it was nice to see you.' I phoned her last Friday and talked for an hour, plus I've never said she cannot phone me, despite what she has told people. So I'm afraid that this time I actually replied to her that I had never said that, but never mind, I'd speak to her soon.

It's such a bloody mindfuck. I felt good after they left because the day had been fine but that comment makes me think she will never stop, there will always be something. I actually don't want her as my mum any more, I wish I had normal parents.

Oh I'm so sorry, love. She sounds so much like my mum with all the "woe is me, nobody loves meeeee" bullshit. She really started with that and engineering dramas out of nothing once I'd started reducing contact. I found it so hard to deal with. And it didn't serve its intended purpose (I assume, to draw me closer with neediness) it just made me want to run away screaming. It actually used to make me feel really ragey. I tried having counselling then but the counsellor didn't really get it.
It's really hard, I remember thnking (about posting on MN a lot) "why can't she just be NORMAL".

You have to accept that she is heavily invested in a certain narrative of you.

You are this... the fact that you are not is irrelevant. You fulfil a need that she has and it is necessary to make you behave the way she thinks, regardless of whether you actually do it or not.

It doesn’t make sense. It’s untrue. The goals will change the moment you think you have worked it out. And really has zero to do with you.

As long as you tow the line