Struggling with DM - again

[christmaspresentaibu]

I've posted here about my relationship with DM and her behaviour previously. It all blew up around September/October last year and I thought we'd got to a point where DM understood that she couldn't keep putting pressure on me to drive home and see her and DF all the time and texting/calling/messaging constantly - I'm doing a PGCE and live about an hour away from them.

After much crying on the phone and my DF driving up to see me and cry in his car on the first day of my PGCE about how my behaviour (not seeing/talking to them as much as they'd like) was affecting them, I thought I'd finally got through to them that I just don't have the time or the brain capacity to deal with them. Through my PGCE safeguarding training and talking to colleagues, I've come to realise that their behaviour (this year just gone and lots of incidents throughout my childhood) probably constituted emotional abuse. I actually dropped everything one Sunday before Christmas to go to their house and 'have it out' - DM crying on me, asking me to hug her and tell her I loved her, after all which she goes 'I know you hate me.' Just the whole thing was awful.

Despite all this, I went to stay with them for a few days at Christmas and then DP and I drove down to see them again for the evening about three weeks ago.

Since then, I found out that DM and DF have visited the area where I lived but gone home without telling me. I also have to instigate any contact at all now - so it's one extreme to the other. I sent DM a small/token gift I'd thought about and chosen to show her I was thinking of her, but when I messaged her last night to ask whether she liked it, her response was 'it would've been nice to see you last week but never mind' (schools in our area were on half-term but I had PGCE assignments and planning to do, plus wanting to spend time with DP and my friends).

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm trying really hard to weigh all this up in my head (I don't really have anyone to talk to who understands, apart from a colleague at work who has similar parents). Am I being a shit daughter? I'm trying to come to terms with their behaviour and still be kind to them, while at the same time do the best I can in my training, look after my mental health and enjoy my relationship with DP. Nothing I do for them is ever enough.

If anyone can advise me on this (again, sorry), I'd be really grateful.

Thank you, both. TimeIhadanamechange, that is exactly what mine is like! She cannot seem to comprehend that I can exist perfectly happily without DP around all the time and without her too.

She knows DP is away because she asked whether it would be both of us visiting or just me. But you're right, the less I tell them the better, although I feel bad keeping things from them. I was actually offered a job yesterday but I'm still thinking about it and haven't told them because I don't want to be swayed in my decision by them. (They heavily pressured me into doing an MFL degree and then voted for Brexit )

You're right also about nothing ever being enough. I'm terrified of subjecting children to this. DM has already said that she wants to be a part of my life with 'babies and your little hubby'

She plays the bloody victim so well. 'Sorry to message but'. It's not normal behaviour! Aaaaargh!

Consider this practise for handling her if / when you want babies! It's a project; learning how to handle your mum so that life is tolerable for both of you.

It goes without saying that I would keep any children you go onto have well away from both your parents. No sort of relationship should be at all established. Your dad has simply acted as her enabler, women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them.

Your parents were not good parents to you when you were growing up either, they won't behave better if you have children.

They are the ones with the issue, my grandmother is like this with my dad, he's now in a situation where he has to call her every lunch hour to talk to her, she is on her own and lonely so understandably wants company and a chit chat but she constantly whines and pressures/guilt trips all of us that she doesn't see us, she also has the habit of not classing 'seeing us' as seeing us if we're not going to visit her... my point is it's their problem and if you pander to their demands the boundary will get moved closer and closer till they're not happy if you don't call them daily

SeaEagleFeather, it is good practice, you're right. I'm really angry with myself that now I've suggested seeing her an extra time at the end of the holidays instead. It won't be good enough and she might be a nightmare tomorrow because of it but it's done now.

Back when I was about 18/19, I wanted to spend the day with my then-boyfriend instead of going with DM and DF to visit their friends and I can remember the absolute meltdown! I remember saying to DF, 'why would DM think that behaving in that way would make me want to spend time with her?' But she scares me and guilt trips me into doing it.

Attila, you're right, they weren't good parents. I'm still trying to come to terms with that. It really hurts. I've done the self-referral form this morning for counselling, so I'm hoping to be able to access that soon and have somebody in real life I can talk this through with.

Mehhh, your poor dad! DM is exactly the same in that she's not classing Easter Monday as me seeing her because it's the day after my DGM's birthday. She actually wrote in the message 'when you come to [DM's town] to see your gran for her birthday (with DP away with his brother)' it's so calculated! I find her turn of phrase so irritating because I can see how manipulative she's trying to be.

As I and others have suggested, look up enmeshment. Things will be clearer.

Nothing will be enough. I remember discussing this with a counsellor a few years ago, and we concluded that, even if I were to live near my mother and see her every day, it would still not be enough.

I avoid telling mine a lot of stuff, and don't feel guilty about it. Partly because it would become local gossip, and, more importantly, my sister would have to be told about it (though my mother is capable of keeping stuff about my sister private, which doesn't bother me other than the fact that I would like the same respect). Partly because she'd want to know all about it, and put pressure on me about it, after telling me that I can't do it, of course (eg I took up running in November, but haven't told her, because I don't want "have you been to the gym today" to be the focus of every conversation with her. At the same time I know that if I say I'm going for a run next time I'm staying with her she'll tell me I can't run, purely because, in her experience, I can't run. She would never take it on trust that I can do something because I say I can.

I recognise the victim role as well. She used to ring every day. I got it down to a couple of times a week, she's been pushing it up again. She thinks nothing of ringing me at work, because she doesn't respect what I do. A few weeks ago, on the Sunday, she tearfully asked if I could ring during the week. I pointed out I always do. I then checked the records after I hung up and realised that I'd spoken to her every day except one the previous week. Yet it's not enough! There was one day last week when I hadn't got her call, so she rang three times the next day (I was busy each time), getting increasingly worried when I didn't answer. When I rang her in the evening she asked me what was wrong, as she thought I'd ring her back. I pointed out that's exactly what I was doing. She then told me not to talk to her like that. I can't win!!!

Sorry, this has been cathartic!

Time, I'm really sorry your mum is similar and your sister is difficult too. Totally agree, we can't win! I used to get the 'don't talk to me like that' line, except she'd be screaming at me and if I dared try to stand up for myself, I'd get 'don't get shitty with me!' screamed at me, the irony of which she didn't seem to see.

I've just been looking at enmeshment. I do recognise a lot of the signs - DM seemed to completely expect to be consulted on things like me getting contact lenses in my first year at uni, having travel injections last year etc. I think the most difficulties have come from starting to try to extract myself from the enmeshment over the past year or two. There's still a long way to go!

I'd wait until the day before your planned visit to them then send them a text telling them you've got too much work to do, and can't make it. Then switch your phone off and don't answer the front door, just in case they decide to come and find you.

There's no winning with parents like them, so all you can do is make sure to look after yourself.

Good luck with it! Have you ever had counselling? It does help.

Yes I had some counselling at uni about a different issue that turned out to be related to my relationship with my parents and their behaviour.

Currently lying awake panicking - they came up to where I live at the weekend and were looking in estate agents' windows as we walked past. I'm terrified they're going to try and move here when all I want is my own space away from them. Maybe I'm overthinking it and they were just looking but the thought of DM infiltrating my new community and just being here feels suffocating and makes me so angry

I had a dysfunctional family with a crazy "D"m and an enabling Df and a favoured Ds.
I decided that my family is the one I made myself after I met my Dh.
I promised myself that my Dc would be treated the exact opposite of how I was as a child and that is what I did.
I have very little to do with the rest of them.
Ive got my own life and family now and they can't hurt me any more.

Currently lying awake panicking - they came up to where I live at the weekend and were looking in estate agents' windows as we walked past. I'm terrified they're going to try and move here when all I want is my own space away from them. Maybe I'm overthinking it and they were just looking but the thought of DM infiltrating my new community and just being here feels suffocating and makes me so angry

You're worrying about something that hasn't happened yet, OP.

I know how that goes. I broke the habit with the help of a CBT counsellor my GP sent me to: it really helped.

If they do move closer to you, you still won't have to spend any time with them at all.

Do you know the Captain Awkward blog? She gives really good advice about how to deal with people like this.

Thank you, OnTheRise. I've booked an initial appointment to be assessed for CBT in a couple of weeks because counselling isn't offered at my local practice. I hope that CBT will help to break the cycle of FOG and help me to establish boundaries.

Somebody on this thread recommended Captain Awkward and it was an interesting read! I'll have another look today. Thank you

Just had a look at a Captain Awkward piece I favourited when the site was first recommended on here (sorry, I can't remember who by!)

This one sounds very very similar to my DM, with the exception of the alcoholism. Pasting a section here in case this is useful for anybody else too.

'Your mom’s need to see herself as a Cool Mom who is Close To Her Daughter is so strong that it is warping her own reality & memory of things that actually went down and things that are going down right now in the present when you communicate. She wants to invite you into her reality, where she is Cool & Loving and you are Cold & Distant & Ungrateful, and all closeness between you comes at the cost of you crossing that barrier into her headspace and letting her reality dominate yours. Sounds fun! Who wouldn’t want that?'

It's really interesting that all of our difficulties seem to be based around her lack of barriers and her entitlement to my time and energy - I think I'm beginning to see what enmeshment really means now!

I also suggest the entries tagged with ‘highly difficult people’ on the captain awkward blog. The top two here deal with setting boundaries and other issues captainawkward.com/tag/highly-difficult-people/

Thank you, reetgood, I'll have a read of those too!

This post has a really useful sort of step-by-step guide to coping with an emotionally abusive DM which I've just copied and pasted into a word document for future reference. Happy to send it out via PM if anybody would like a copy.

christmas - I'd love a copy, thanks!

I really, really hope for your sake that they don't move up. If I were you I'd start talking about the fact that you're thinking of moving to the other side of the country in a few years. Just casually drop it into the conversation. Or request some house details from estate agents and leave them lying around when your folks next deign to visit.

I was similarly in a panic the other day about ringing my mother. The comments about how it would be nice if I could visit have started. It stresses me out no end. Just the fact that I know she'll mention it every time I talk to her. As far as she's concerned I could drop everything and come tomorrow if I wanted; the reason I don't do that is to punish her. The fact that I have my own life is neither here for there.

I've just sent it over, Time, I hope you find it useful in some way!

Me too - I honestly think I'd lose my shit if they tried to move here. It'd be another example of massive lack of respect for my boundaries, privacy and separate life. They'd never do this to DSis. I think she feels that they care about me more than they do her, but it's not really care, it's some sort of weird, unhealthy obsession. Is this really what it's like to have children? I can't imagine, once they're grown up and flying the nest, that I'd want to be so unhealthily attached and clingy towards them. Surely if you love them, you want them to go and succeed and be happy, secure adults in their own right?

Time, I do think at some point I'm going to have to drop the bombshell about planning to move abroad. They'll keep pestering about my plans (I've just been given a one-year contract at a school for September), so it's bound to come up one day.

DP and I are also thinking about moving in to his place with his parents to save some money before we go. None of this is going to go down well at all! Moving in together, qualifying, getting a first job, going away for an adventure abroad should be so exciting but everything I do I dread telling them about because somehow I do all these things specifically to spite them.

I'd really like to get married to DP in the near-ish future but the thought of having to have them both at my wedding with his family there too and all of our friends is just too much. DM was so rude to DP's parents when she met them, it was excruciating. Making violent sick noises as part of a 'funny' story from when I was small - what a great first impression for her to give my potential future MIL

I agree completely - the reason we grow up and move away and get on with things is to punish our parents, obviously they can't see any correlation between their actions and us wanting more space!

It's interesting how many more self-esteem issues can be traced back to our parents' behaviour. Sorry, I'm just sort of musing as a stream-of-thought kind of thing. When I first knew my first serious boyfriend at school, he had a lot of friends who were girls and DM didn't like that - she'd say things like 'oh I don't like how Jenny is with him' etc, sowing the seeds of doubt. My jealousy of other women is something I really want to work on, it's a horrible way to feel about people , but I remember her making comments about DF's ex-girlfriends at the dinner table, it's so unnecessary! The first thing she said when I told her I'd met DP was 'has he had a girlfriend before?' and I did spend quite a while at the start of our relationship feeling very insecure about who'd come before me and how did I compare? Because I didn't have the confidence or self-esteem to just be who I was and own it. It's really sad how all-encompassing this shit is!

Sorry for the ramble

Just resurrecting this thread again to say I had an assessment appointment for therapy today - thank you to everyone who recommended it

The person I spoke to thinks that either counselling or interpersonal psychotherapy is the way to go. I'm just relieved to be able to speak to somebody completely openly about it IRL. She actually used the term 'emotional abuse' to talk about my parents' behaviour which is actually a relief as well, as strange as that sounds.

Thank you all for your advice and support

Sorry, me again, not sure if anyone is still reading. DM messaged last night but I didn't see it till this morning.

I've been unwell so couldn't see her at the end of last week like I'd said I would. She messaged today saying 'I know you said not to get in touch but hope you're feeling better - it's what mamas do. If there's anything you need, let me know'

I could just cry. It's making me feel like I'm going mad. She's making me out to be the bad guy and she's a lovely 'mama'. I never said that she shouldn't get in touch, I said that her barrage of emails, calls, texts, voicemails and Facebook messages before I'd even got to work in the morning was too much. I am sick to death of the whole fucking thing, all of her mindgames, her wilful misunderstanding of the situation. I know I can talk about this at my next appointment in a couple of weeks but dear fucking god, how can I get her to stop with her games?

I taught three lessons this morning and the last one was so shit, on Saturday night I drank too much and was sick in my friend's house, with this on top I just want to go home and cry.

Hi Christmas

The only way to stop her games is to refuse to have any part in them. Do not ever pick up the rope she holds out to you.

Such people like your mother ignore any boundaries you are trying to set and or maintain hence this missive from her today. Its another way of her trying to maintain control over you; this was never sent out of any real concern for you. She is simply trying to drag you back into her dysfunctional world.

You need to block all her ways of contacting you now; she is not doing your mental health any favours here at all.

Concentrate on getting through your PGCE and getting the best result you can. Put your relationship with both your parents on hold till the end of your course. Don’t allow them any headspace at all.
If you feel the need to tell them in advance then do so but frankly I think you’d be better off just cutting contact for a while and stop allowing them both to manipulate you.
Doing a PGCE is mentally and emotionally draining so don’t expend any of your energy on your parents’ needs.

I can heartily recommend breaking off all contact with your DM. I finally did that with my toxic mother when I was 8 months pregnant with DD1, as I didn't want my child to have any relationship with my ghastly parents, or suffer what I did.
It was relatively easy for me as we lived 450 miles apart, so I just wrote a letter detailing my decision.
Both parents died before DD1 was 7, and I didn't shed a tear over either of them. It just felt such a relief to be rid of them, to not have to play their stupid games, to be always in the wrong, to be guilt tripped, to never be good enough, etc.

Thank you!

Attila, that's true - I asked a friend what to do about this message in particular and she said essentially 'grey rock', don't be drawn in. Is this what gas lighting is? 'I know you said...' when I said nothing of the sort? She's done this before, she was in a foul mood with me before I went travelling last summer for six weeks and didn't respond to my 'love you', but then when I brought that up later, she said, 'that didn't happen, of course I said I love you, I remember'.

llangennith, I'm going to try and go quietly. We haven't got any dates booked in and there's nothing coming up over the next few months (until Fathers' Day) so I'm hoping that I might get some respite. It's so hard when they're in your head all the time. They don't even particularly enjoy seeing me, I don't know why they bother. I never hear from my dad at all, it's like I don't even have any relationship with him. It makes me so sad to think of that.

Babdoc, I'm really glad NC has worked for you. I really see it happening for me and DM but I think that DM's behaviour recently has been quiet and insidious and so I don't have any 'proof' that going NC is justified, if you see what I mean?

'It's what mamas do' makes her out to be such a wonderful mum, doesn't it? It's like saying 'I can't switch off being a mum', but she bloody well managed to turn it off when she gave us the silent treatment for a whole week when we were tiny, or when she never told my sister about periods and tried to make me give her the talk when she started and thought the bleeding meant she was dying. She turned it off when I tried to skype her from Peru last summer to check in (as is my duty) and tell her about how excited I was to go to Machu Picchu the next day and she sat there watching the TV instead of actually talking to me. So many example that she just isn't 'what mamas do'.