Struggling with DM - again

[christmaspresentaibu]

I've posted here about my relationship with DM and her behaviour previously. It all blew up around September/October last year and I thought we'd got to a point where DM understood that she couldn't keep putting pressure on me to drive home and see her and DF all the time and texting/calling/messaging constantly - I'm doing a PGCE and live about an hour away from them.

After much crying on the phone and my DF driving up to see me and cry in his car on the first day of my PGCE about how my behaviour (not seeing/talking to them as much as they'd like) was affecting them, I thought I'd finally got through to them that I just don't have the time or the brain capacity to deal with them. Through my PGCE safeguarding training and talking to colleagues, I've come to realise that their behaviour (this year just gone and lots of incidents throughout my childhood) probably constituted emotional abuse. I actually dropped everything one Sunday before Christmas to go to their house and 'have it out' - DM crying on me, asking me to hug her and tell her I loved her, after all which she goes 'I know you hate me.' Just the whole thing was awful.

Despite all this, I went to stay with them for a few days at Christmas and then DP and I drove down to see them again for the evening about three weeks ago.

Since then, I found out that DM and DF have visited the area where I lived but gone home without telling me. I also have to instigate any contact at all now - so it's one extreme to the other. I sent DM a small/token gift I'd thought about and chosen to show her I was thinking of her, but when I messaged her last night to ask whether she liked it, her response was 'it would've been nice to see you last week but never mind' (schools in our area were on half-term but I had PGCE assignments and planning to do, plus wanting to spend time with DP and my friends).

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm trying really hard to weigh all this up in my head (I don't really have anyone to talk to who understands, apart from a colleague at work who has similar parents). Am I being a shit daughter? I'm trying to come to terms with their behaviour and still be kind to them, while at the same time do the best I can in my training, look after my mental health and enjoy my relationship with DP. Nothing I do for them is ever enough.

If anyone can advise me on this (again, sorry), I'd be really grateful.

Slow responding here Christmas....
MS often starts in people in their 20's and 30's.
I don't know how old your DM is but if she's in her 50's or 60's, then yes, it could have started when your DF first knew her.

As I said in previous post, this does not excuse her behaviour in any way and not all parent(s) with MS treat their children badly.

I have worked with 2 women in my career, who had MS.
I didn't work with them both at the same time.

1 was a lovely woman with a brilliant sense of humour and a big, big heart. She became a close friend while we worked together.

The other was the complete opposite!
Difficult to deal with, inconsistent, nothing was ever good enough for her and if you fixed 1 thing that she had complained about bitterly, she'd just ignore that and complain about 2 more things.
Unfortunately, she was in a senior position of authority so she made work life fairly awful some days.

It was having experience with this 2nd woman that made me read up about MS as I had started to wonder if her condition was a contributing factor to her general shitty attitude and, it would seem to sometimes be the case.

Knowing that did help me in my subsequent dealings with her as I then felt that she was not trying to get at me personally, but it didn't help me to like her any better!

A work colleague relationship is nothing like a parent/child relationship but I thought it was worth a mention.

Don't worry at all, there are better things to be doing than replying to me on here!

That's really interesting about your experiences with different people with MS. I know two men who both have it - one still has a really physical job, is really involved with his grandchildren, always active, and the other is much more negative about everything, so much like the two women you know as well.

As soon as DF told me about DM having MS, I knew which camp she'd fall into. It also seems that, by pretending she'd just been diagnosed, she was using the MS as another stick to beat me with, another way to make me feel guilty.

It was definitely worth mentioning, thank you for sharing your experiences

Sorry to bump the thread again - does anybody have any suggestions for Mother's Day which is fast approaching?

DM expects all the big expensive gestures (because money = love). For her birthday after she'd acted really destructively, I ended up giving her flowers which is a 'safe', sort of neutral option but cost me £40!

I don't want to reward her bad behaviour again (honestly this is like dealing with a child at school!) with expensive presents, but I'm just not up to spending a weekend with her.

DSis says she's doing card, flowers and 'something else'. Can I just do a card and cheaper flowers?

I'm seeing DM and DF this weekend for coffee. Really don't want to see them the following weekend too, plus I'll have planning, marking etc. Might move Mother's Day to this weekend instead, maybe she'll see DGM on the actual day?

I'm running my first half-marathon on Sunday but they're not coming to watch because they'll have been watching the football the day before. just another example of the lack of support etc.

Sorry, I'm rambling!

Should add, DSis is seeing them this Thursday and then not on actual Mother's Day so it should be fine in theory...

I would spend the money you would have spent on your mother on yourself and your partner instead. Whatever you send her would not be good enough anyway in her eyes anyway so don't bother.

Your mother was not a good parent to you when growing up, why should her behaviours towards you be at all rewarded particularly when she associates money = love. Your father basically enabled her and threw you under the bus to protect his own weak self. He gets what he wants out of this codependent relationship he has with his wife and that is why he has stayed with her.

I agree with Attila - remember that nothing will actually be good enough for your mother so limit the amount of time and money you spend on Mother's Day. Rather than what you 'should' get her, think about what you WANT to get her. Trust your own judgement, and get as much or as little as you think is reasonable. And of course it's fine not to see her on the day

And very best of luck with the half marathon. What an achievement. I'm a 5k runner and I'm in awe of anyone who can run further!

OP - you know that nothing will be enough. You either acknowledge that, with a 'fuck it' normal present and card, or you go full-on appeasement with a bigger box of chocs, bigger bunch of flowers... none of which will do.

In your shoes, I think I'd go LC, or NC. It's hard I know (I've done it) but the relief round birthdays etc is immense.

You can suggest Mother's Day is this weekend (to allow you the following) but that won't pass either. Nothing else but the 2 weekends, total prostration, money spent, time spent, will do. And you know that even then it will not do - because you are not the golden child.

Maybe a 'token' sort of present? A card, nice, but not gushy, and flowers? Then you haven't been a 'bad person', you've acknowledged mothers' day, but not to such an extent that you are putting yourself out over it?

Nobody has any right to 'insist' on any kind of gestures, be it mothers' day, birthday, or any other occasion.

Thank you for your suggestions, everyone. I went for flowers and card, and then brunch with DM and DF today. I made DP come too because I was so nervous and had made it such a big deal in my head.

Neither flowers nor card particularly gratefully received, it was as though that was just what she expected - she didn't really look at the flowers at all, they weren't expensive but I'd spent a while choosing a pretty bouquet.

It's interesting how, once the wool has been lifted from your eyes, you start to notice so many more textbook signs of narcissism. The half marathon was cancelled due to the weather, but that almost passed without comment. Somebody at work called her a 'shining light', and she's reallt pleased that somebody else at work is scared of her - she hates her job but won't leave because it'd please him too much it all seems so unhealthy. Didn't ask how my placement was going, how DP's parents are, none of what you might consider the sort of 'normal' social bits and bobs.

I think DF had a nice time, especially talking to DP. I really miss him but I can't see us having much of a relationship until he splits up with DM, which seems unlikely.

My DH has parents like this, although they divorced when he and his sister left home. Both of them constantly guilt trip their grown children who are in their 40s!! Recently DH has been moving out of denial and is realizing more and more. He told me that his mum is much more emotionally immature than he is, which is true. It's like they don"t know how to have normal close relationships, they feel everything has to be manipulated and if they are not doing the manipulating them someone else must be. They act as if it is an act of betrayal for their children to have thrir own mind and opinions.

Also we have been married for 21 years and neither of them have ever asked about my family and background.

I'm sorry your DH's parents are so similar, Moveablefeast! Everything you've said is exactly the same as with my parents. Where do they learn this crap?! It's interesting that you say 'if they aren't doing the manipulating then somebody else must be' - I think they see us putting up boundaries and grey rock-ing as manipulation, which it sort of is, in a way, IYSWIM?

I really struggle to know who is in the right. If their behaviour hurts me, that makes them wrong - but my behaviour hurts them too, even though it's normal things like establishing boundaries and saying 'no' when faced with FOG. It's a really tricky situation!

Cancel seeing them at the weekend for coffee, a waste of time, money and effort. Cite any reason but cancel it all the same. Do not buy her anything for Mothers day either; she was and remains no decent mother figure to you nor a parent either. Your dad gets what he wants out of and from this codependent relationship he has with his wife your mother and is really her hatchet man as well sent in by her to do her bidding. He cannot be trusted either, he has and will throw you under the bus as and when required to save his own skin.

Was not unfortunately all that surprised to see that the flowers and card were not well received; this is par for the course when dealing with a narcissistic mother. You need to undo the training she has taught you , she has basically trained you from soon after birth to serve her. If you grey rock her or set boundaries she and her hatchet man will rail at both, best thing to do here is to actually lower all forms of contact over time to a point of zero contact. It is really not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

Good luck with the half marathon!.

"I really struggle to know who is in the right. If their behaviour hurts me, that makes them wrong - but my behaviour hurts them too, even though it's normal things like establishing boundaries and saying 'no' when faced with FOG".

You are in the right

Your behaviour does not hurt them, it annoys them markedly because you are then stepping out of your assigned role of scapegoat. You are not doing their bidding if you try and establish boundaries with them or adopt a grey rock technique.

OP because your relationship with your mum at least is not based on unconditional love, how she has related to you all your life has warped your sense of normal. Loving rekationships should feel relaxed and free, not caught in a bind of confusion and second guessing. Have you received any kind of talk therapy?

I really struggle to know who is in the right.

I'm not sure it matters who is in the right or in the wrong. The thing is that what you want is reasonable; that your mother treats you with respect. If strangers are due respect and courtesy, family are much more entitled to it!

What you want is what matters here. Is what you want reasonable? Yes. So, hold to your ground.

OP - look up "enmeshment". Your talk of lack of boundaries suggests to me that there's some enmeshment going on between you and your mother. It's where one person sees another as an extension of themself.

I'm in a similar situation, though I've managed to pull myself out of it to some extent. There were the physical bounday issues: not being allowed to spend time in my room, but, rather, having to be with my mother watching tv, or doing my homework in the kitchen with her nearby. There was no lock on the bathroom of my childhood home, and, even in my 20s my mother would walk in when I was in the shower (clear shower screen) to wash her hands, then comment about my weight in passing. There was a sink in the room next door. She was not happy when I, finally, put a stop to it. And, of course, I had the same problem when I tried to stop her walking into my bedroom without knocking.

And the not so physical boundaries: my first mobile had a visual text notification of an envelope flying on to the screen, which my mother liked to watch. But then, if she knew I had a message she'd want to know who it was from and what it said.

It also presents in the fact that anything I do or say that goes against her thoughts must be being done purely to get to her. For example, she lives in a large city, I live on an island many miles away. She can't accept that I choose to live here because I like it here, as far as she's concerned the only reason is to hurt her by not living in her back pocket. We had an argument once when I said that I really, really wouldn't want to live in a city again: apparently I'd "soon get used to it". That may be so, but I know fine well I wouldn't enjoy it.

Maybe try and find a counsellor. That's what helped me.

Sorry, it's me again.

DM and DF are coming up to see me tomorrow. I've also already told them that I'll visit them on Easter Monday and stay for the day.

Just received a message from DM saying 'it would be nice if you could stay a couple of days to catch up'. I'm already seeing them tomorrow and going down for a full day in just over two weeks' time. AIBU to say no?

She's asked because DP is due to be away with his brother for the first part of the Easter holidays and she doesn't think I have a life other than DP. Him being away was when I had planned to do all of my lesson planning for after Easter, when my hours on placement will go up, plus re-write a PGCE assignment which I managed to fail.

Apart from that, the thought of having to stay overnight again in my childhood bedroom crammed with things and where the door doesn't shut makes me feel all jittery.

Is it unreasonable to say no, all day Easter Monday, after which I drive home, then I'll come and see you with DP towards the end of the holidays when my work is done? I don't think it's unreasonable, but what do I know?

It's the way she says these things, she never says 'would you like to...?', she says 'it would be nice if you...'

The whole message is prefaced with 'sorry to message but -', because I'm obviously a horrible difficult daughter who she doesn't feel she can talk to. Fuck's sake.

No it’s not unreasonable. I think you just need to set firm boundaries. Nothing will ever be enough for your DM. So I think you need to just put you and your needs first. Act as you think is fair. So for example, the visiting schedule you’ve already agreed to is utterly fair already. Then don’t budge when pushed. Don’t converse or excuse or explain. Just write back “sorry. No can do” then stick to that one line. Whatever she chucks back at you just the same line “sorry. No can do”. Be a broken record. She is going to scream and shout. Broken record response from you at all times. Set your boundaries. If you and DP ever have kids this will get a lot worse so you need to nip it in the bud now. I’d recommend counselling. Not for her (although she does need it) but for you. It will help you establish boundary setting and how to communicate with her.

Thank you, ChickenMom. I've just offered her a day/evening visit with DP at the end of the holidays, so we'll see how that goes down.

Going down on the Monday as it is already only gives me two full days before I'm meant to go away with DP for a few days so I really can't give up any more of my work time. She has no concept of the fact I need time to myself to get things done and I don't spend every waking moment with DP!

I definitely need help with setting boundaries. Going to self-refer for counselling today, I've put it off for too long. Thank you

I knew she'd start again, isn't that crap? She went quiet after the big blow-up before Christmas but I fucking knew she'd start again. Walking on eggshells doesn't come close.

She really does sound so similar to mine!

I'm an introvert, and absolutely love spending time on my own. I'm actually getting quite antsy because DP, who usually spends a weekend a month with his mother hasn't been away for AGES, and I'm missing the time to unwind. If my mother hears that he's away, though, she's quite convinced that I want to ring her every two minutes because I'm lonely. She also gets very concerned when I say I have no plans for the weekend and will just be in by myself. But that's how I like it!

Definitely put your foot down and say you have plans. No need whatsoever to elaborate.

Hi OP, this is a great opportunity for you to put some boundaries in place.

It is not unreasonable to decline. You should tell your mother, 'No, I can't stay the night on Easter Monday because I have work commitments and study.'

She won't like it but so what? Too bad. Just keep your calm and repeat what you want and need. You have to not care that she is upset - just like she doesn't care that you are feeling suffocated and controlled.

Also, how does she know your DP is away? The less you tell them, the better it is for you. Keeping your parents at a healthy distance limits opportunity for conflict and their involvement.

Also, I would not placate her at this stage by promising to come and see her when your work is done. Your offers are never enough. It should just be a firm, flat no. Take control of the agenda a little more rather than trying to please your DM. She can't be pleased, so what's the point?

Just received a message from DM saying 'it would be nice if you could stay a couple of days to catch up'. I'm already seeing them tomorrow and going down for a full day in just over two weeks' time. AIBU to say no?

No you are not being unreasonable here by saying that and give a reply along the lines that user and chickenmom has suggested. Problem with people like your mother is that if you give an inch they will take a mile. Boundary setting by you will not be at all tolerated by her and also you probably find it nigh on impossible to set these anyway because you do not know how. She has enmeshed you that much.

Indeed nothing you do will ever be enough for your mother. Ultimately you will need to cut all ties and go no contact with her for your own peace of mind. Its really not possible to have a relationship with someone as disordered as your mother is. And its not your fault either that she is like this, you did not make her this way. Her own family of origin did that.