"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Bethy

There is counselling via the NHS but there’s usually a decent waiting list (I.e. 6 months). I had private counselling years ago and it was very expensive, I’m in the same position where it may help but it’s unaffordable for me nowadays.

On the NHS I've only been offered CBT, but I just don't feel like that's enough.

Also, I'm a little worried about bringing everything up to the surface for a continued period of time.

Sadly I have to have contact with my parent and I'm just completely stuck at the moment.

bethy that is my issue with counselling, it brought things to the surface and although in some ways I’m glad I had it, in many ways I’m not, because of how awful I felt week in, week out having it all swimming around my head. I’ve just started reading the book ‘Toxic Parents’ by Susan Forward, haven’t reached any ‘solutions’ yet but they’re in there apparently.

I do think counsellors take the mickey with their prices as well. I was paying £45 per hour several years ago, cost a fortune, and actually she didn’t give me much insight really, just let me ramble on. Could have done that with DH

Thanks @lemony.

I managed to access some really good free talking therapy through my local university. I took part in a scheme where they use anonymised data from your sessions to train future counsellors. The woman I saw was very experienced, and it was pretty open ended (I had weekly sessions for a long time, then gradually spaced them out over the course of nearly two years). It really helped me to change my outlook on things, gain insight, and have so much more self empathy.
Just thought it might be a route to access therapy that people wouldn’t necessarily think of (I was referred by a women’s aid support worker but you could self refer).

Hello everyone

I'm a long time poster but have only just plucked up the courage to have a look at this thread because I was afraid of what it might stir up. Also because my abusive dad passed away 10 years ago this year so I kind of thought what's the point, it's not like I can confront him. But some posts on another thread have made me realise that my dad's treatment of me is still influencing some of my own behaviours which are unhealthy or selfish to those around me and I want to try and break that cycle. It also meant I went on to marry my exH who was similarly abusive but I couldn't see it as that was my norm.

On the thread in question I posted about how I suffer from anxiety. One of the ways in which this manifests itself is me asking my DH not to do motorway journeys with me if at all possible in case we get stuck in a traffic jam and I need the loo. This means he has to do longer journeys on A roads yet I hadn't realised how selfish I'm being in requesting this of him. Having had a think I realise this stems from my dad - up until the age of 10 or so if we were out and I needed the loo, he would make me go in the street/gutter rather than walk to the nearest public toilet. I was old enough to find it humiliating but young enough for him to slap me if I complained. In the end I got round this by limiting my fluid intake if I knew I was going out with him and that anxiety has stayed with me.

I feel silly writing this in a way, it doesn't sound that serious in itself but of course it's just one element of a pattern of wider behaviour that I suffered at dad's hands. He was a nasty man who targeted my mum who was 19 yo when she met him; he was 48. My mum's not from the UK and married him against her family's wishes so she felt she had nowhere to turn when it all went wrong. She coped by working away and leaving me and my brother with dad for all but one evening a week. I left home at 18 and went no contact for 15 years until just before my dad died. I've sort of forgiven her because I realise she was overwhelmed and coped by running away from the situation but I still feel awash with anger sometimes, that she left us to it.

Recently mum told me an example to demonstrate that she did defend me against dad - I was 2yo, my brother was 3yo, and apparently one of us had knocked a picture off the mantelpiece. It was almost certainly my brother (I would have been too short to reach) but my dad wanted to smack me (his smacks left red marks) "so she doesn't get away with it just in case it was her." My mum told him she'd hit him back if he touched me - see, she did care about me! Yet she still saw fit to go back to her home country for a couple of months at a time and leave us with him because [referring to herself] "children need to see their parents don't they." And then she started working away from when I was around 6yo. She never phoned us in between visits home and I missed her terribly. My dad shouted at us every day and smacked us hard most days too, yet everywhere we went he received and revelled in compliments about how impeccably behaved we were. I guess we were the human equivalent of him kicking the cat to relieve his own frustrations. I bore the brunt more than my brother as dad was a massive misogynist who believed women should know their place (yet was happy for my mum to go out to work to fund him staying home all day).

Not sure what I want from this posting really, just needed to get it out somewhere. Thanks.

@Acatsnohelpwiththat
I can’t offer any advice, just amazement at what you survived.
I know many of us went from difficult childhoods to abusive relationships, I know that was me. Well done for breaking that cycle with your now DH.
I’m sure someone wiser will be along soon, but didn’t want to read and run.

Thank you ColdTatty, we each tend to minimise our own experiences and whilst I wouldn't wish toxic relatives on anyone I'm glad I've found people who understand the dynamics.

@acatsnohelpwiththat can I just say how cool it is to have a another Pet Shop Boys fan on the thread

I don't think it's selfish to want to drive the A roads, although I'd imagine toilets are actually easier to come by on the motorway at service stations, but I imagine the anxiety is about not being able to stop when you want? The emotions you're having are real emotions, so while I can see why you might want to train yourself out of that reaction if it's very inconvenient to use the A roads, I would wish for you that you could accept your reaction and not feel guilt about it inconveniencing your DH. Does he know why you feel like that?

I have a reaction like that - I have to get dressed pretty quickly as soon as I get up and I can't stand to wear socks or especially slippers around the house because as a child, once I was dressed I could escape out to play/to school. I always feel slightly unsafe and antsy when I have nightclothes on and I'm not in bed (where I was also safe). For this reason we are a shoes on household You can see these things as the mechanisms by which you tell your inner child that you are safe - that's a good thing to do I think.

@toomuchtooold omg you spotted the obscure Pet Shop Boys reference in my username! I'm suitably impressed PSB's were my refuge and escape when I was teen, however I had to hide it from my dad as any music that wasn't classical was completely banned in our house. I didn't get to listen to any chart music until I started going to secondary school and could listen to the radio on the coach to school.

DH knows my background/issues and is very supportive of me. I'm just scared one day I'll scare him away!

I could hear the lyric as soon as I read it! Took me a minute to place the song but it was unmistakably Neil Tennant's voice that I could hear in my ear. I love the Pet Shop Boys.

This has been an eye ppener for me.
I've recently gone NC with my dad and stepmother due to what I now know is years of emotional abuse and neglect.

As a child my dad worked all hours and after my mother died and he remarried, my sibling and I were at the mercy of my stepmother. She would mock us and tell me I was stupid, fat, dirty and smelly. She would lock us out of the house and we were not fed enough, sometimes resorting to stealing food or eating dog biscuits.
We were often told that if we misbehave they would kick us out. This was from when I was around 8 years old.

After leaving home I maintained a relationship with them but after the birth of my own child I realised that I did not want them anywhere near us so I went low contact. Recently they questioned this and asked me to be honest as to why so I told them straight. Of course they denied any of it and contacted my DH telling him I am a liar and crazy and that I had the best childhood imaginable. Their ability to lie and rewrite history is astounding.
They are also poisoning other family members against me.

Luckily I live a long way from them so I don't have to deal with anything in person.
The title of this thread is so representative of my childhood as on the outside I had a comfortable and very middle class upbringing. But under that facade I was in hell.

@meereen So sorry that happened to you. The rewriting of history is really hard to deal with. Being told point blank “that didn’t happen” to the point that you question yourself. I hope you have support from your DH. x

@coldtattywaitingforsummer
Yes fortunately he is an absolute rock and is very supportive. he can't believe how awful they are as he has an amazing family

Have lurked in these threads for a while abd so much of what has been said resonates with me. Can I ask for your input on my situation?

My mum was emotionally unavailable and has never changed. Seldom told me she loved me etc. My dad and sister say this is how she is and I need to accept it.

When I developed mental illness as a teen she grudged every appointment she had to take me to. According to her I was a “selfish little bitch who wasn’t ill. I was just spoilt.” Even when suicidal, the response was that I had nothing to be depressed about and needed to stop being a little bitch.”

I developed a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms, cutting, drinking, drug taking etc but she never saw these as an outlet for distress. It was always about me being spoilt or manipulative in some way.

My mental health hasn’t ever gotten better up to a diagnosis of bipolar a couple of years ago. I struggle with being around my parents as it seems to cause an episode every time. Each time I have an episode it turns into a rant about how “selfish” I am and how awful I am for “putting my parents through this.” I’m at the point where it’s better to say nothing about an episode until I’m really really ill. Even then I’ll be chastised for not being honest and hiding things.

I don’t know what to do. My CPN is concerned about my relationship with my parents and the damage it does to my mental health.

How can I start to unpick all of this? I’ve been told by professionals I need to start being kinder to myself but I just can’t. When I try I hear my mothers voice in my mind saying I’m spoilt and always want my own way.

Hi everstrong, I've been a lurker on this thread for years but never posted. I didn't want to leave you hanging once I got caught up.
You need to stop listening to your mother's voice in your head. It's not selfish to look after yourself, imagine if you had a broken leg rather than MH, would going to the doctor be selfish? Of course not.

It's so hard to break out of the conditioning of our childhood to think and act in certain ways especially if we have learned these patterns to survive in hostile environments.
But you can do it.
It sounds like you get grief from your family for telling them when you are unwell and grief when you don't. That's not a natural reaction for a 'caring' parent. Family members who tell you that's just the way it is are enablers and just as guilty as your mother. Treat them with the same caution.

Keep working with your CPN (I don't know what that is but assume it's a form of MH professional) and try to surround yourself with more positive people. Sometimes you need the family you choose, not the family you are given.

Hugs are here if you need them

I am new to MN and have recently been pointed to these threads after writing in AIBU about going NC with my mother but not my father. Whilst I have recently been enlightened to the emotional abuse I have suffered through my (now over) marriage, I wasn't aware until more recently that there seems to be a pattern of behaviour exhibited by my mother which makes me think that she, too, (and indeed my father and siblings as facilitators), has made me believe that this way of treating me is "normal".

I am shamelessly placemarking as I would like to get my bearings within these threads, and come back after I have learnt more about what's been going on, in order to get a little more insight as to whether or not I warrant your support and advice. I'll be back!

Hi @scooby, I’m pretty new to these threads as well. And I’m already seeing the link so many of us have between emotionally abusive parents and moving into relationships that were just the same. I’ve now been away from my ex for over four years, and nc with my parents for just under. @eversong hit the nail on the head when she talked about “my mother’s voice in my head” for so many years I mentally justified my every move to her, anticipating criticism, even when she didn’t even know about it. The good news is I hardly ever do that anymore, and when I start down that road I mentally stand up to her instead. A good therapist really helped me and I would definitely recommend it to anyone.

If you're struggling with that inner voice, you might find Pete Walker's book ,CPTSD: From Surviving To Thriving - he calls it the inner critic, and he has lots of advice about silencing it. It's a really good book generally. I think most of us on here have CPTSD to some extent.

Saw my dearest friend tonight. Her dad suffers from a degenerative brain disease and she is naturally very upset as she is close to her dad.

She has (rightly) pointed out that my nc with my parents is only likely to change if I let the matter slide. Which I am not prepared to do. I have spent many years apologising where I shouldn't have done for (in particular) my father's behaviour. Heck he has even said truly awful things about my friend. I'm not 100% sure whether she remembers how he was with her when she visited my home as a teen. My mother dismissed the rift as 'you know what your father's like'.

What can I say to get her to understand nicely that while I understand she and her father have that very close, special relationship and have done for such a long time, I don't have that with mine anymore. It changed the year I turned 13 (coincidentally the year I met my friend). I know she feels strongly I will regret it if we don't make peace and something happens to my parents. But right now being nc is the right thing and when I probe within myself how I would feel if I were told the worst had happened and I would never see them again, at the moment I feel nothing. No sadness, regret, not even anger.

Hi @minisok, I'm LC with some of my family, I don't post often but visit the thread sometimes when I'm feeling low or have flying monkeys on my back! The beauty of this thread is that the people on it understand exactly why you won't regret having gone NC even when the inevitable does happen. Most people, like your friend, have if not wonderful then at least healthy relationships with their parents, where even though there maybe ups and downs there is an underlying level of love and care.

That combined with the evolutionary and society pressures to preserve family relationships makes it hard for others to to understand exactly why NC sometimes is the only way to go.
If you think it would help, explain some of the reasons that have led you to going NC, if you've been down that road already or don't want to, I'd simply ask her as a friend to respect your decision as to what is right for you. I'm sure she wouldn't advise you to keep contact with a friend that treated you badly, why should shared DNA excuse that.
I'm no expert, but I'd say trust your own instincts, sounds like your friend is well meaning but coming from close loving parents, she can't really 'get it'. Best of luck to you.

Gulp. I'm joining you. Just went NC with my F. Hoping to stay in contact with dm, but I'm unsure if she'll feel able to do that. She already tried to coerce me out of it.

Actually trying to do it was really upsetting, but I feel peace and relief now that it's done. My only sadness is about dm.

Just wanted to say thanks to whoever started this thread and all posters. Its brought a bit of sanity and a lot of wisdom at difficult times. A lot of people are having a really hard time of it and it can and does get better - like so many people you just have to realise the FOG and change your attitude and behaviour cos they won't change theirs. I've got a delightful 73 year old mother who has used me as an emotional crutch for ever, is a bit of a victim and martyr. For at least 20 years have had the me me me, and crying about how awful everything is, whilst at the same time - just a few examples of how her life could be nicer- she has not visited her (supposedly much lvoed 3 year old) grandson as its too far/ too hot/ rainy/ dog doesnt like the car/ too busy (idiot me does the four hour round trip til recently), the perfectly pleasant and thoughtful response to my earlier miscarriage "oh I forgot to tell you x is pregnant", a charming consolense on the sudden death of a very close friend "perhaps its for the best" and another loss of a pregnancy that we dealt with and had told her we didnt want to talk about again (" Now I know you said you dont want to talk about it and it will upset you but where did the hospital scatter the ashes... I wanted to remember her?" (did you meet her then?!) , and the kind and loving thoughts on my wedding " I wont come to the reception if you dont mind". And STILL I feel guilty and its me that is the bad guy/ difficult person- thinking I should have handled that differently. What has helped me is giving less of a toss, realising she won't change, she is very self centred and I have other priorities now. I dont ring often (she never rings unless its been weeks then its "hadnt heard anything..."). She is older now so that helps - I just treat her (on a good day) like a batty old aunt and hope that she kind of goes away ...
On a bad day, the FOG can mean its hard to concentrate on the rest of life. Onwards and upwards though and thoughts to you all - and dont let them get away with it!

I recognise that feeling of being the troublesome one....usually when setting perfectly reasonable boundaries.

I find myself double checking with other people that what I'm asking for, or doing (boundaries wise) is actually reasonable because I'm so used to being treated as if I'm the problem.

I have to keep reminding myself :

Just because someone's tone sounds reasonable, doesn't mean that their words are reasonable. And just because an EA person acts as if I'm being unreasonable, doesn't mean that I am.

Wow. What a revelation this (and other similar threads) have been. Thank you to everyone that has shared your story and given advice, it's such a help to read.

Specifics of my story are probably too outing but in general terms, when I left home at 18 I had no doubt that I was useless, worthless, a waste of space (from what I now know as a narc mother, but also from her enabling partner).

Now in my 30s I am recognising all his for what it is and am waiting for an appointment with a psychologist to unpick it and how I now feel. I worry for my relationship with my own child. I feel angry at all the years wasted, trying to live up to what was expected but never having the tools to do it. I also feel angry that my mother's siblings seemingly recognised their own dysfunctional childhoods and tried not to repeat the cycle, whereas my mother didn't.

But anyway, hopefully all that will be addressed with professional help. And thank you again, I'm sorry that we are all in this boat!