"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[toomuchtooold]

It's December 2017, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016
Oct 2016 - Feb 2017
Feb 2017 - May 2017
May 2017 - August 2017
August 2017 - December 2017
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Oh also just to point out that I don't want either of PILs within a mile of my Dc's. Was only agreeing to MIL to be fair to my DH because he is their father so not just my choice.

NoPoint I think it sounds like you are doing a really good job of holding boundaries with your in laws. And with a tiny baby too. Your DH obviously has not got the insight you have on his mother. He is in the fog.

I'm more of a lurker than regular poster, but just need to brain dump if that's OK? Long story short. After a life time of having not a scrap of self esteem, no confidence and real trouble building relationships (both friends and romantic relationships), I sought counseling last year and discovered all my problems stem from growing up in a toxic family. My dad is narcissistic and mum enables him. I don't feel like I have a close bond with her (I suspect she's emotionally 'turned off' as a defence from all the verbal abuse she gets from dad). Discovered through counselling I have an avoidance attachment style...

I finally got my shit together after counselling. I left my own unhealthy relationship and am so much happier having bought my own house and living with my 2 DDs. Self esteem is for the first time in my life finally creeping up. Incidentally, at time of my divorce, my parents decided to have their own fucking great marriage crisis. Cynical me wonders if my dad couldn't stand the spotlight being on me and my problems and so created a 'diversion'.

Thing is I have no idea now what to do about my relationship with them. I am still feeling so bitter about it all and the life time of issues, their shit caused me, I can barely stand to be around them at moment. Mum is constantly tearful because dad has stepped up his verbal abuse towards her. They stayed here at weekend and I could hear her crying at night, probably as a result of him saying something dreadful. It is awful what she is putting up with but I don't want that shit in my new house, my happy place... Neither of them have ever acknowledged either how awful it was growing up. It makes me want to scream.

So much more I could write but just needed to get it out somewhere where I might be understood x

broccoli

They should never stay with you again in all honesty.

I would in all seriousness go no contact with your parents. They were not good parents to you when growing up and have caused you to be seriously harmed emotionally.

It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and people like your dad always need a willing enabler to help them; this being your mother. I would also think that their own marriage crisis was a diversion as well as you state in your second paragraph because your dad could not abide you having all the attention. They also make out for being utter crap as grandparent figures as well so do keep this codependent and dysfunctional pair away from your kids as well. You will thank your own self for doing so.

Such people as well never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

I don’t really know where to start with this, but my head is a complete mess and I need to put it down somewhere! My father has advanced dementia, and I think he is near the end of his life. He’s in hospital at the moment, is unconscious and not eating. For the last three years he’s been cared for comprehensively by his wife of 30 years, with my youngest half-sister who still lives at home. It’s been a dreadful time, he doesn’t now know who anyone is, but his wife is insisting on caring for him at home, and drawing on his four children for support. This is fair enough, but I do not want to do any more than the one evening per week that I currently do. I have a bad relationship with this side of my family, a lot of emotional abuse and on one occasion physical abuse from my dad’s wife growing up, and I have always felt resented by her. Currently on the mantelpiece there are about 20 photos of her, my Dad, and my half siblings. There are no photos of me or my brother in the house, we have effectively been airbrushed out. Once Christmas she asked me to frame a picture of the ‘whole family’, just the four of them. This hurts a lot, and every time I go to their house I feel like I am really letting myself down, as I know I am being used, nothing more. I’m not valued, and I’ve never known what it is that I’ve done, quite. I have a tendency to cringe and be pleasing, which I hate about myself; I think this is down to my Dad choosing a wife who didn’t want me around. But it’s also very complex. For example, I’ve always felt responsible for her emotions, logically I know this is nonsense. When I look in her eyes I feel anxiety, even now (I am middle aged); she’s so cold, and it hurts that she’s not that way with her own children. I feel that being in close contact with her is damaging to me, because I am at heart really, really afraid of her.

Paradoxically with my Dad’s growing ill health, she became more and more needy, sometimes phoning me in the middle of the night, because he didn’t recognise her. I understand that she’s desperate, but she hasn’t earnt my support. Five years ago my younger brother (not her son)died aged 27, which was devastating for me, but she has literally never mentioned him to me or offered any support, so I am really angry about this; I am just a resource to her. DH hates the way that I am treated, and made himself unpopular by explicitly setting the boundaries that I am too afraid to spell out. He is now banned from their house. However, up until my Dad really took a turn for the worst in the last month, things were OK with just me visiting and we were on an even keel. I went round to look after him one evening per week, keeping contact with his wife minimal. About 6 weeks ago my dad went sharply downhill, and I had a conversation with her about future care. She doesn’t appear to think that he’s dying, and wants him to be at home with 24 hour care, she casually mentioned that my older brother (not her son) has agreed to do stay overnight regularly. This brother doesn’t agree that I have been mistreated by her, he likes to pretend that everyone is happy, at any cost. He is a good man but he doesn’t support me. What he tends to do is make a kind offer, renege on it and expect me to step in. I felt the pressure to offer similar help, but didn’t rise to it. As a result I’m now being ignored by her, and my half sister and brother. There is an odd dynamic here – my sister sort of decides who is to be frozen out of the family, and her mother is too scared to say anything. She has always in control of the house, and I have at times monitored f the way she talks to our dad, as I think it borders on elder abuse. To be honest I look forward to the day when I am shot of them all, but in the immediate future I do believe that my Dad will die, and we’re heading towards this enormous event and we’re not talking about it. Or maybe they are, I don’t know. My worry is that I will be frozen out of the funeral, when in reality I once had a good relationship with my Dad. Yes, he has been an arch enabler but it saddens me that his life could add up to this.

But of course, he may pull through, in which case I have to guard against being exploited further. I know that estrangement is on the cards, and I’m proud that I’m still sticking to the boundary of weekly visits. But I still feel enormous guilt and anxiety about this, which I suppose is that point of this post. How do I break the spell of wanting the approval of my Dad’s wife and half siblings? It’s so powerful. Even though I don’t like them – I wouldn’t choose any of them as friends.

Aside from this part of my family, I have a wonderful DH and mother, and lots of friends who value me. They deserve my time and energy, but they’re not getting it. Can anyone relate?

I'm the scapegoat, aren't I?

Thank you for your reply attila. No contact seems a daunting prospect at the moment but I know its what I need to do eventually. It really does affect my mental health being around them at the moment

Poudrenez, I don't have much to offer except my own experience but I do relate and was in your position for too many years! You sound pretty aware and I think you already hold your own answers. Someone put it very well on this thread when they said that intellectually you know none of those people (excluding your DF) are worth your time, energy, or emotion, you are not going to change them and your life will be more peaceful without them in it - but it takes time to get there emotionally. I am in a similar place effectively waiting for my lovely DF to pass away so that I can put clear water between myself and several members of my family.

What changed for me was that (after therapy) I finally gave myself permission to ask what do I get out of these relationships? Would my life be better or worse with the person(s) in it? Given that you can't actually help them, and you certainly can't change the way they are towards you (you can only enable them to carry on as they are) what an awful waste of your time and energy that could be spent on people you love and who love you back. I'm wishing you well at this difficult time.

I've read pretty much this whole thread now and just wanted to say how thankful I am to have found it, all the advice has been so helpful and all the links etc - particularly Atilla and Toomuch - such compassion and sound advice every time.

Thank you dazed, it helps to know I'm not the only one with this awful dynamic! And I like the idea of there being an emotional lag, as my feelings really haven't caught up with what I know logically. All the best to you too (this thread is a god send).

Poudrenez I couldn't agree more - I've many friends with 'normal' family situations who have their ups and downs but generally have each others best interest at heart - they can't begin to understand what this is like and the damage it does. I'm glad for them whilst being ever so slightly (ok a lot) jealous! Whilst no-one would wish this on anyone it is a huge comfort to know you aren't the only one struggling with this and feeling the same things, rational thought giving way to a skewed emotional response. BTW when I said above 'an awful waste of your time and energy' I was talking about my situation, not putting that on you, didn't mean to be negative about how you decide to do things, we have enough people giving us those messages!

Hi poudrenez, I can completely relate to you. My step dad (now dead) and step siblings were awful. The thing about the photos - not one of me or my sister in the house. But so so many of his family. He treated our pets cruelly (once chucked my cat out in deep deep snow overnight - I lost my shit then). Just was completely heartless to my desperate situation. Led to a suicide attempt when I was 13. I was pretty much ignored throughout my teenage years. Like you I’m a people pleaser. I have very low self esteem and constantly think the worst. It’s exhausting.

I had so much anger towards him, I guess therapy helped me redirect some of the anger towards my mum for not protecting me.

Anyway since he died my family have nothing to do with his family. It is a blessed relief.

I’m sorry your father is so unwell. I don’t have any advice but perhaps in the future your step mum will just be out of your life and you will be happier.

@dazedandconfused18 but they are an awful waste of my time and energy! So you are quite right . Yes it's quite lonely when I see that other people don't have to deal with this sort of family dynamic, but what's even worse is that people such as DB deny that it's happening in our family. It just feels like a huge battle but for once I'm feeling resolute, because the alternative (being closer to them, physically) is so dire, I suppose. DH is being an absolute rock in all of this. Since they now hate him he has nothing to lose by being the bad guy. Obviously I have lovely daydreams about telling them all to do one myself, but baby steps!

@BerryBee It's comforting to know that you can relate - the photo thing is so hurtful. I'm sorry to hear that your stepfather drove you to a suicide attempt. What a horrible, cold man. I'm glad that you've found peace at last. And it's quite right that when my Dad does die I'll have less contact with his wife, and I'll be much happier.

I'm feeling really confused. I had an appointment with my psychologist today, and talked through my relationship with food, as I've been coping with an eating disorder. I talked about how my M made me feel about my weight and how it's led to excessive anxiety about it. I remembered how she once said she would weigh me again in a month's time and if I'd put on any weight she would smack me. It's only in recent times that I've understood how wrong that was.

And I haven't contacted her in over 3 weeks, and I'm feeling sad about it now. The last time I saw her was when she came here to eat with us and she hasn't got in touch at all. I was even wondering if there might be something wrong, but then my DH's mobile rang and it was her. So she is all right.

I was quite firm with her last time and I have a feeling she's taken offence. My DSis told me a few months ago that she didn't call her but communicated with her DH. I think she's doing that with me now.

Poudrenez, I know what you mean, with some of my family their views, memories and way of seeing things are so different to mine that I think I'm going mad. Luckily like you I have a sensible and loving DH (of 20 years) and lots of very wise friends who help keep me sane. I think I have been at times in denial myself (like your DB perhaps?). I so wanted 'the Waltons' that I convinced myself they aren't that bad and put up with behaviour I would have never accepted from a friend. Also anyone on this thread knows how exhausting it is when you push back and have to spend days and weeks suffering the fall out, at times I've had too much on to swim against the tide.

It's a tricky time for you, dealing with the crazies, preparing yourself for losing your DF when you're probably not finished grieving for your younger DB and mourning the family life you never had. I'm glad your feeling resolved to keep your boundaries though, it is liberating! Logically you know though that down the line you will have no need to have such negativity in your life, you owe them nothing.

BerryBee, It is exhausting isn't it and awful that you suffered such desperate times. It's good to hear better days have come for you.

Long backstory. TLDR: my sister is the GC, I am/was the SG in a family with an uNPDF and uAPDM. Dad died last year.
My sister is generally manipulative and specifically nasty towards me. She is completely enmeshed and sees nothing wrong with the abusive and dysfunctional childhood we had and her own neglect and abuse of her (now grown up) children.
I am currently struggling with my feelings regarding my mother’s birthday as it has brought up all the old feelings.
My mother is visiting and staying with my sister for her birthday. I am in contact with my sister and with her. I asked my mother what was happening about her birthday (the first since our Dad’s death). She told me that they are going out for a meal. I asked when and said that I had not heard anything about it. My mother then backtracked and said that maybe it wasn’t happening, she’d just remembered that she wa doing something else on that day, but later in the conversation told me that she was doing the other thing on another day.
They all have form for lying to me about many, many different things. In the past if I was invited then I was told that I had to pay - even if we ate at my sister’s home - and I found out twice that I was the only one paying!
I have been so generous to my sister: lent (given) her money, driven her around, listened to her, supported her but all I have had back is abuse and nastiness.
I am an idiot for expecting anything different aren’t I?
Previous times when my mother has visited I have phoned and gone to visit - never invited - the last time was Christmas and when I arrived they had had a buffet party - still lots of food left and I wasn’t even asked if I would like anything! Just sosick of being treated like nothing by them.
So this time I am not going to get in touch. Is that wrong? Should I make the effort as it is my mother’s birthday?

I don't know really where to post this I guess I should change my name but meh. My family are pretty much NC, we were trying to co-parent despite splitting a long time ago, but it's not working. I messaged family who I know have room including a DP who has 2 spare rooms. Their advice, try other DP or GP or if that fails Shelter. I was truly gobsmacked.

I had to leave home on finishing school as my sibling was bullying me so much. I had help maybe over a decade ago, but I paid back the help a hundred fold. I can't grasp why they'd suggest asking family to help they know don't speak to me.

To make matters more interesting I bought a slight treat for myself for the weekend. I was half asleep but ex decided that since I ate something that wasn't mine that cost £2, they were going to pour my treat down the sink.

Hoping so desperately that when I see Occ Therapy I can emphasise that I don't need anywhere magical, anywhere away from here is what I desperately need.

It just kills me inside that my family know full well what things are like, yet it's not their problem. I try and get housing sorted and they've invented all these loopholes. I know why my family don't like me, but I have helped out anyone I can when asked. Surely it's human nature to help when you can.

Joining this thread. My mum is a narc martyr and my dad is an authoritarian, a fun comfonation.

Just told my mum I’ve got an accidental BFP and am nervous and might need her help in picking up a prescription for my antiphospolipid drugs, that without I have pretty much no chance of a baby. I hate asking her for help but I don’t drive and can’t get these meds.

Only to be lectured like a schoolgirl, told how stupid I am and that considering I’ve already had several miscarriages why would I even do this and that she -might- help me if she feels like it.

She’s now rang me in tears accusing me of deliberately breaking her vacuum cleaner. I haven’t even used the bloody thing. Woman is a headcase.

Hiya! I don't have much time but I wanted to bump the thread, as I keep meaning to come on and then I can't find the thread and I forget.

Oh Christ Violette is there anyone else you can ask? You know they only see these situations as an opportunity to make shite with you. You're stealing all the limelight by having a complex medical condition, and you're asking her to make an effort to do something that any mother would do for their child - so no payoff for her in terms of being a hero, and she's going to have to make an effort.
They don't think about things in the way normal people do. It's the way it is sadly.

How's it going MrsJack, did you get anywhere with the housing? Sadly family like ours just see need as a weakness to exploit. I saw it described as a totem pole, like in terms of success, strength, attractiveness, whatever - you're either above or below them, and they fawn to the people above and shit on the people below. And that's the only relationships they have with people, nothing else.

The proposed grandparents rights law - gosh it is making me anxious.
Sounds like a nightmare waiting to become reality. I dread to think that one day my m could have rights over my children.

What are your thoughts?

Okay..just need to vent and maybe hear some opinions.
Background: Mother is a Narc. Father is an enabler. I have one GC brother. I'm the scapegoat.
Recently, GC brother got married.

In the past, I have usually been asked to do a reading at random family events...funerals christenings etc. I would never assume that I would be asked to read, but would always graciously accept the task if it was given to me.

Nmother has recently begun a trend of trying to sabotage readings I'm asked to do. I suspect this is because she'd like to be able to read publically herself but doesn't have the nerve. She's given me the wrong information in the past so I'd make a mistake etc.

So in the run up to GC brother's wedding I was not asked to read. I didn't think anything of it and actually looked forward to being able to relax and not have a job to do. Fast forward to 2mins before the ceremony .....I'm approached by the organiser and asked what reading I'm doing? I tell them I'm not doing a reading. I'm told that I am definitely doing a reading. I ask GC brother and he says "Yes you are"

Nmother and enabler father are totally silent beside me. I explain to GC brother that nobody told me anything about a reading and this was the first I've heard of it. He insists really gruffly in front of the whole gathering that I WAS told I was doing a reading and to "just do it".
I genuinely wasn't told anything. Naturally I got annoyed and repeated that this is the first time I've heard anything about reading. I was embarrassed and felt I looked bad in front of all those people because of someone else's mistake.

I did the reading, and it was fine, but was upset to be put on the spot like that and it was obvious my Nmother knew I was supposed to read all along and never bothered to tell me. I feel like I walked into the trap my nmother set by getting annoyed about it. I didn't let it ruin the rest of the day and everything was fine but I'm just frustrated now.

I'm still annoyed at what happened. Am I being ridiculous? Surely the very least you need to do if you want someone to read at your event is to ask them?
I think the best way to deal with this from now on is to just not do any readings at family events in future. There's always some miscommunication and it's not worth the stress and hassle.

So tired of the lack of respect and being painted as the bad guy.

Hi all,

Just posting to say hello and maybe get a bit of advice. I've had loads and loads of really helpful advice on a thread here, but I wonder if I can ask a question to you all - if you have an EA mum/EA parent who lies about you to the family and generally makes you doubt your sanity, how can you be sure that she is the EA/lying/narcissistic one and not you?

The grandparents contact thread has been concerning me - if I were to keep future DC away from my EA DM, she would likely say that I was lying about her and paint me as the EA or at least emotionally unstable one. And how can I be sure I'm not?

daisybelle84 you are not being ridiculous at all. It's really sad that your family set you up like that.

daisybelle I saw your other thread, I'm really sorry that your parents and your brother behave in the way that they do. YANBU