Sex on the first date...

[carriecaux]

Okay so recently went on a tinder date, it went really well. He kissed me on the way home and then we ended up going back to his on the premise that nothing more had to happen! We agreed to wait and not have sex, and we both said we'd like to go on a 2nd date so there was no rush or anything to do it, buuut things got a bit heated and it ended up just happening anyway, of course!

I feel like I've made a massive mistake now though because he seems to have gone off it :( he was genuinely really sweet and nice and it was a bit intense to say we'd only just met because the evening felt very couple-y, he was very like intimate in ways I've only been with an actual boyfriend before, if that makes sense? Like I've had a few casual things recently and they've not felt intimate at all like this did.

So we vaguely said we might do something this weekend. We texted a bit but way less than before, he still asked me how I am etc but didn't really reply much.. so I asked if he still wanted to do something this weekend or not (kinda trying to give the option of saying if he wasn't into it) and he then text saying 'I'd love to do something next week if possible, but just really busy this weekend now' etc. So I replied saying sure, when would be good for you but he didn't respond to that one.

The thing is I'm so new to dating. So I don't know what's normal, maybe he is just busy? But my friends are saying he's probably using it as an excuse bc he doesn't want to have to say no, or he's trying not to look too keen, I'm thinking surely men don't do that?! I'm 23 (he is 27) but I had a boyfriend for a long long time before now but we never dated. We split up 6 months ago and this is genuinely my first date since so I don't know what to expect. My other thought is that is this how actual adults date, casually without the need to be in constant contact? I'm so used to being in a relationship I don't know how to do this!

I'm thinking maybe I should text tomorrow if I don't hear from him today basically being like what's the deal, are you into it or not. Obviously not in those words, but something like that. I think I know exactly what people are going to say to this, but I'd appreciate thoughts anyway?!

I'm weird, I think.

I waited six months with XH, and FOUR YEARS with DP.

Granted, we weren't properly together for much of that, but still...

It just takes me forever to want to take that step. It's a trust thing I think.

MumBod there is nothing wrong with waiting until you feel the time is right. Nobody disputes that. It is wrong, however, to base their opinion on how 'classy' and generally worthy a woman is on how soon she chooses to have sex with a man. By your definition, Mini, nuns are the classiest. Can you see a problem with that?

I fundamentally do not agree with you, Mini. I do not liken women, individuals to cheap handbags. I do not see myself as a prize, a trophy, a treasured possession, a 'special gift' you condescend to 'give' a man. It is manipulation and not too different from a bloke lying through his teeth about a 'relationship' in order to get one thing.

If you want to be a feminist, then be one. Let women own their decisions and choices. This is why we invented contraception, MAP, DNA testing, concept of consent, divorce, put in place laws which endeavour to share financial and other responsibility for a child it takes two to make.

This kind of nonsense makes me sad. What happened to the mutual respect between a man and a woman? Why do people still reduce and belittle a woman's agency? We are more than biology I would hope, we are individuals with our thoughts, ambitions and free will.

I could understand if a man would engage in slut shaming, as it is a mechanism of control: "I, the man, decide who you will and won't sleep with". But women slut shaming other women? Hello, it is 2000 fucking 17.

I think so many of you are missing the point here. It's not classy for a woman OR a man to jump straight into bed with someone. To have so little consideration of safety/consequences/emotional repercussions/getting to know somebody before being intimate etc (could go on) it's not classy it's just desperate. If sex doesn't mean anything beyond the immediate physical feeling to you then I think you are disillusioned. It's actually not likely to be good sex on a first meet anyway. Male or female it's just a bit slutty regardless. If you want shallow quick thrills that's your business but I can see how that would get boring and meaningless pretty quick.

The op is hurt by a strangers lies. That's what the original thread is about. The point is that sex on a first date is risky. Waiting is less risky and she would be less upset if she hadn't slept with him and the lies would be less important.

What happened to mutual respect....indeed, but was it ever this way? No, which is why we are debating this stuff. We have double standards. This archiac way of thinking is deeply rooted.

I'm not for a minute suggesting women are comparable to handbags. In fact it worries me that we might be. I should have been clearer, I was putting forward one possible explanation for the idea that some women are "classy" women have been chattel, women have been exchanged, objectified and treated as property.

But, our new so called liberation seems to be devaluing women because we might not be property, or exchanged or chattel but we are still struggling for equality. We still have a free market economy, one that increasingly treats self and others as commodity, and conflates value creation (commodities) with human value. We should be concerned not skipping about saying "hey look how liberated I am shagging" especially when women came to be property because men wanted access to our bodies and our reproduction.

Until there is some massive changes in how women are treated, some massive overhaul of human psyche, behaviour and the material objective conditions of women's lives, I'll stick to navigating this in the way I do.

Anyone here have much to say about advertising, pornography, the way capitalism creates desires for things we never knew we needed, or the way women are, have been and possibly will continue to be subjugated as the sex, and how we overcome this....great.

I still think it's hypocrisy of the highest degree to devalue sexual intimacy and then hop up and down because it's devalued to the degree that your husband has sex with someone other than you. Plus, why are so many women getting married? I've heard all the so called rational arguments and the romantic, and none of it makes any sense unless you do believe people (women especially) are property. Monogamy and free love are not compatible bed fellows.

As for my personal opinion, I think trust is important. I know why I think that.

As I said earlier, ONS are fine. Do as you wish. Sex on a first date could be fun. Do as you wish. There is a double standard. It's still there. And you can't challenge it one day and go get hitched the next. It's illogical, irrational and short sighted, to assume men do not make sexist judgements in 2017. If anything one could argue it's far worse, we are quite deluded.

If sex with men you have just met makes you feel liberated, great, but don't think that because you "feel" something that makes it a fact.

Mamabear please don't be so patronising. We are grown women here and we are aware of risk and consequences associated with sex, including emotional consequences. Please give us some credit. We are not some silly little women who need guidance and shepherding as we lack capacity to make our own choices.

Waiting for sex does NOT guarantee anything. I have a close family member who was all about 'saving herself' to bestow this wonderful gift on her man. Shame he didn't see it that way and slept around before and during their marriage. She realised she was a fool AFTER getting married to this bastard and getting pregnant by him. But according to your logic she played all her cards right, did not sleep with him or anybody until marriage was proposed and minimised all the risks almost to nil. Sorry, it doesn't work that way...

It is not until a few years later and after rethinking being so uptight for no good reason, she did meet a man who will be with her for 37 years. They did find themselves having sex early-ish into dating. Maybe she thought not being a virgin and divorced she had little to lose and the 'special gift' wasn't quite so special anymore? Who knows, I find it incredibly sad she had to go through the heartache, abortion and divorce in finally to let go of her ridiculous ideas.

As to Mini's points about changing society's perceptions, well this will never happen if we all stick to archaic notions, will it? We are the ones to change our lives, we decide who we pick as partners and how we raise our children. It is down to US.

And I can say with certainty it is miles better to be a woman in 2017, than it was in my grandmother's or even my mother's generation.

I am married (and suspect a lot of other women are) so I can have the security and protection of law, not because I think my husband will never leave me or fall out of love with me. The ring on your finger does not insure against any of that.

Clearly, we have got some way to go as currently 'common law' partners are not allowed the same rights, although in practice for a woman it is little different to marriage.

It's unfair that women are judged for having sex on a first date, however, this doesn't make it not true.

For a man, the assumption is that she has done the same, many times before, doesn't value herself highly and has slept around.

If we look at the Op's case, she walked him home (ffs), she slept with him, and then she chased him by text. She has come across as desperate. How has that worked out for her? He's not interested.

I daresay, that had she let him walk her home, given him a lingering kiss and sent him on his way, and not texted him afterwards, and been generally unavailable for a few days, that he would still be on the scene, and chasing her.

You can call it game playing, and yes, maybe it is. But there is nothing wrong with that, imo.

It's a shame that there are a lot of experienced women on this site, that have been around the block, learned a lot about the male
psyche, but younger women will simply not listen.

I state again, Op's guy isn't interested, is he? Kind of proves what we are trying to tell you.

Husky, it only proves that the guy in OP's case was not as interested as he made out to be. If OP managed to get him to go on a few more dates, I doubt the outcome would have been different.

IME the male psyche is not that different to female. We all want broadly similar things, to be loved, respected, secure in our relationship and fulfilled as a person in our own right. IMHO male hunter instinct is overrated. Women are hunters as much as men if only it was socially acceptable to admit.

Husky, it only proves that the guy in OP's case was not as interested as he made out to be. If OP managed to get him to go on a few more dates, I doubt the outcome would have been different.

This.

I think Husky is right, and yes it's not ok to live with this double standard, but live with it we do.

Value, who gets to decide value. What does it even mean to say something has value? I think value can mean two things, value as in cost and value as in characteristics both can be equated or perhaps even reduced to desirability. At least in this case.

I remember well in primary school that all the boys liked the little blonde girl. All of them, almost without exception. I remember too in secondary school that there were maybe only three of us that all the boys wanted. Desirability is socially mediated and reinforced.

Then, you have desirability linked to unattainable things. Or things you have to work harder for because they are rare, or expensive or highly desirable but not easily obtained.

You have competition for what is not so easily obtained and highly desirable. We live in a market based competitive society. We want what others have, but we want more, or we want better and more desirable. We want what others desire and we want to have what they can't obtain. This is directly feeding the ego. And men have huge egos. (As do we)

We create or own sense of our own value and we have that view reinforced by others accepting it and validating it.

We do it with everything from cars, to houses, children and relationships. We check Facebook, we check mumsnet, we check Twitter and Instagram and we blog about ourselves. Publicly declaring our value, as measured against others.

If we place a value on our bodily autonomy, if we place a value on sex (beyond it being little more than a casual handshake) we indirectly place a value on ourselves. Men know it. They've always known it. And so for the most part so have women.

Again, the hypocrisy of marriage and monogamy.....( I rather like monogamy personally) but I don't like marriage. Marriage came about because of private property. Men wanted access to female bodies. Ownership. Monogamy was forced on women. Men continued to want access to other female bodies. Now men can have all their cake and eat it, whilst we skip about going "look how liberated I am" but I got married so I could " have greater protection under law to take some of his property" and "sex is just a way to pass the time, until my husband passed time with another woman" and in 2017 he has plenty of opportunities to do just that!

This app hates paragraphs. Apologies, sorry.

Why do people seem unable to grasp my issue is not that we are not going on any more dates; it's that he lied to me? When I left in the morning he said he couldn't wait to see me again and had enjoyed meeting me etc and before we slept together even made a big point of wanting a 2nd date.

Why the need to twist it as well; 'Op walked him home' umm no, OP and the date lived on the same road and walked home together. My house is literally 5 minutes from his and maybe I should have said earlier, but we did say we could go to mine; I declined because my house is messy 😂

And I really don't think sending a text is desperate. At all. I wouldn't find it at all desperate if I were him; in fact I've had guys text me like that after seeing each other and I've thought ah, best tell them I'm not interested anymore... it's just polite/normal, maybe it's a generational thing because it's very bizarre to me that you would purposely withhold contact or play a game of pretending you didn't arrange to meet again and waiting to see if he brings it up.

Why would anyone want to be chased by someone who would lose interest in them because they slept together?

Honestly, the only thing these posts prove is that some women have really low standards in what they expect from decent men.

It really doesn't translate as valuing yourself highly. You should really want more for yourself than small-minded, judgemental men who need to be played in order for them to want to be with you.

Carrie, I would say it is far more desperate to make up and follow a bunch of silly little rules in the hope of being chased by men.

Like I said because....(this is generalisation) men hold out the possibility of a relationship to get sex, women hold out the possibility of sex to get a relationship, lots of men use lies to get sex.

Because women do not have real equality with men, because lots of men equate sex with power, and power with sex, they prefer to lie. In fact my guess is that lots of men like to dupe women and get an extra kick out of doing so. (Always desiring the less easily obtainable)

I did online dating before I met DP. Men were absolutely incredulous when I said I wasn't looking for a relationship. It seemed to genuinely confound them. When questioned, and I was always questioned on a first date, they looked quite mortified. I didn't want sex either. I told them that. More perplexed looks. I didn't have ONS and only one guy didn't want a second date. I'm old, 44, I'm average, but I'm not naive. I insist on deciding based on knowledge, not on some spiel some man I barely know trots out on all his dates.

I hope you find what you are looking for op. Take from this recent experience the knowledge that men can lie to get what they want. It's not new, it's not unique, it's a sad fact.

carriecaux why waste time asking us why he lied to you about seeing you again? Ask him then. The direct approach.
But here's my two pence:
He lied because he didn't want your questions, tears and tantrums. The whole drama. I am not saying you would have behaved like that if he had told you the cruel truth in your face, but he assumed you would, because most women love drama and tears. He just wanted to get the fuck out of there, have a good sleep, then wake up the next day, log onto Tinder again and fish for another conquest. There you go.
Just get over it.

that's exactly how I feel weebo! If this is the kind of man to lie to get sex then I'm glad I found out now rather than later. Exactly; if someone's into games and playing hard to get then we're probably not all that compatible anyway. I really value honest/open communication in relationships and don't feel that initial playing hard to get is conduicive to that in the long run.. hopefully I'll meet someone on that wavelength at some point, until then enjoy ONS with grimy guys 😂😩

Unfortunately well aware that men lie to get what they want 😂 I guess in this instance my surprise does show naivety, but I'm new to 'dating' and tinder dating especially so it's not becesssrily an encounter I've had before. Oh well - live and learn! I'm really not torn up about it. Mainly disappointed. I want a FWB and if he'd been honest about just wanting sex it could've worked out!

Madreputa, I started the thread asking for opinions on the situation, not asking why he lied

Carrie I'm not trying to defend him but I doubt he was lying per se when he said he wanted to see you again. He probably did. When he said it. I expect he got home, went on a dating app found another tasty looking sweet to try and went off in a different direction than yours. On the dating thread it's called 'sweet trolley /sweet shop syndrome'. That's not to dismiss your feelings but it's just dating in today's world. Not always but mostly. It's all too easy to overthink the 'connection' you felt in the build up to the date and the date itself. Dating is like the lottery. Some people win the jackpot with the first ticket they buy but most don't.

Nah, I accept that, it's definitely likely!

OP, you got what you wanted too didnt you? You wanted sex and you got it. A relationship can change at any minute just and a non-relationship even faster. Have you never had morning after regret? Lots of people do. Lots of people realise they have devalued what could have been a good thing just by being impatient and you as their partner in this are entirely complicit - and that makes you unattractive. Really quickly. Regardless of gender.

It's like you would have been happier if he'd opened the front door and escorted you through it ten minutes after sex because then he wouldnt have been 'lying'. He's no doubt a decent bloke who probably regrets how that played out. Perhaps he would have preferred it in hindsight if you'd refused to come in at all, it would mean you had shown some restraint and self-control and that's always sexy. But neither of you did and it is what it is. To put a guy down for giving you sex when you want it without giving you some kind of after service is a losing thought process everytime.

For what it's worth, I had sex with my now DH on the first date within a few hours of meeting him. And we met on Tinder. And when it's right, it's just right regardless. Did I have a tinge of regret the next day? Yes most certainly. We had both been really very drunk and probably not making good decisions. But we fell for each other and it just worked out. Not every first date shag will obviously, otherwise we'd all still be the first person we ever slept with.

Mini those men were probably confounded that you were so open about just wanting a free dinner, after all most people don't use online dating to make friends ao if you didn't want a relationship or sex, what was the purpose of dating?

Mini, TBH I was just as confounded reading your message. The men in question probably could not work out why you were there! You didn't want sex, you didn't want a relationship, but you have come out on a date? For some adult conversation and a drink? This is bizarre.

We have got a good friend who ONL at the moment. From his side, he has turned down ladies, sometimes after a few months of dating and some sex. It might have taken this long to realise they weren't for him. He is definitely looking for a life partner and a long-term relationship. Never, ever though have I heard him say he appreciated dangling the carrot scenario and respected those women more for it. If anything, he was annoyed the other party could not make her mind up as to what they wanted. He expects some maturity and honesty from people in their thirties. So your winning strategy has not worked yet in his case. I so hope he finds somebody nice as he is a great guy and deserves a lovely partner.

They were confounded because I didn't say I wanted a relationship. What I did say was I would have a relationship if and only if I found the right person. And no I wasn't looking for casual sex. How was I to know from the outset for each individual date/person if I'd want sex or want a relationship with them. As it was I didn't want anything with any of them.

But it doesn't seem to work for women when they are actively looking for a relationship. I have read the dating threads on here. I feel quite sad that women put up with so much shit. I think perhaps we behave differently when we are motivated to find a relationship. Maybe, who knows. I don't think you can find it. It just happens when you meet the right person. Same with ONS if you meet someone and want that of them, do it if you want to, but it is what it is. Telling a man your looking for a relationship is counter productive IMO.

Carrie don't stress about it. These things just happen sometimes.

I once went on a date with a woman and liked her. Was all for contacting her again but then out of the blue, another woman popped into my world the day after which scuppered the first one. Sometimes there is no easy explanation.

Haven't read all the thread, only got so far as the posts from people who have this weird view that sex is a gift to be presented by a woman to a man, only when he has proved himself worthy.

So long as you only have sex when you meet someone who gives you the total fanny gallops, and you're gagging for it so much that you won't regret it even if you never see him again, then all will be well whatever happens.