I lost my closest friend to my husband (no affair involved!)

[revolution909]

Basically my closest friend and my DH have become so close that it's impossible to rant about him with her as she feels she's right in the middle. I also realised she clearly has more friends than me (she used to claim she didn't) and basically have felt like a bit of a loser the past few days. I actually have no more friends than her and that realisation makes me want to cry. I work full time from home.. so that makes things a lot more difficult. I've tried with the mums from school and we just don't click. i think my best bet is joining my local running club as I spent most of my free time running. But yes in a nutshell I'm kind of sad I've lost her to my husband! I was happier with her being primarily my friend and that she was just "friendly" with DH.

The thing about you feeling you were abusive too - do you mean because you shout?

The book I mentioned above I slightly misremembered - it is called Stalking the Soul, the erosion of identity by Marie French Hirigoyen.

She says you have two choices with emotional abuse - which controlling and manipulative behaviour is. You submit and keep the peace by keeping the abuser happy. Or you fight back and abuse looks to outsiders like a high conflict relationship. Do you shout in defence, frustration, panic - or to intimidate your partner? Not that shouting is okay, but if you think about why you are doing it, it will help unpick the dynamics of the relationship.

I think Trailingwife is insightful in what she posts.

I also wonder why, if he wanted to do right by you when you were pregnant, he spent three years moaning about the baby

As for telling you what to do about medication , would he do the same if it was for a physical condition - say you were anaemic, would he tell you not to take iron tablets? He is stigmatising your condition as well as controlling you.

The thing about you feeling you were abusive too - do you mean because you shout?

I now only shout out of frustration. I've ways raised my voice it's a cultural thing. My husband never knows if I'm having an argument or the time of my life with my family because we raise our voice regardless of the reason.

I also (and I'm not very proud of this) have been physically violent towards my husband. It has never been more than slapping him, and it all happened before I was even diagnosed.

He's just adverse any type of medication, it's so weird. I'm anemic and hypothyroid so sure he's OK with those, but when on holiday I wanted to delay my period and he was very against taking those pills too.

Ok @revolution909 -- about slapping your husband...

One way to look at any behavior is figure out what are the ABCs of it.
A = Antecedent (what happened right before)
B = Behavior (in this case slapping him)
C = Consequence (what happened afterward as a result of the behavior).

So yes, you slapped your husband, and that is not an OK thing to do. None the less, given all the other dynamics of the relationship, I think that figuring out what was happening before, and what happened as a result, might help you better understand why you did why you did, which I think might help you forgive yourself and put it in the past.

It seems that it has been quite a while since it happened, and that you've gone to a lot of effort to change your behavior by seeking out medical care and making numerous changes to your life style. In the last few months, do you feel your behavior toward him as been abusive?

Also, does he keep bringing it up even though you've apologized and worked to change?

So, he is not against all types of medication - he is against certain types of medication. That is fine. But for himself. Your body = your choice. No-one should tell you what medication you should and should not do aside from a trained medical professional.

Besides, I don't believe it is difficult to tell if your natal family are arguing or having a great time, just because you are all loud. Sorry, but surely he can read emotions? That is a way of undermining you and at the same time being negative about your family.

There is a book called Coercive Control by Evan Stark, which talks about how women snap as a result of being controlled. His cases are far more extreme than what you say, though no physical violence is good, but his argument is about the entire context of the snapping, and not just that one point.

He argues that snapping in the context of coercive control is about asserting the will to live more freely. You can snap in lots of ways.

Stark has a section on the differences between high conflict relationships and controlling, abusive ones. But the really interesting point is the way in which control happens at the micro-level of your life. It is about what you wear, who you see, where you go, when you sleep, what you eat - all of these things. And the controller uses the knowledge he has about you to fit the strategies to what works.

He fits this within the larger context of inequalities in society. It is quite an academic text, but he has been instrumental in getting coercive control on to the political agenda.

The Crown Prosecution Service has guidelines on coercive control, which list areas of evidence. I personally think it would be extremely difficult to prosecute where it is less overt and more manipulative; partly because it works by making you think you are wrong in your own beliefs and behaviours. Which is why it is important to recognise it and set very clear boundaries (and become more autonomous, regardless).

I am on my phone but I will try to link to the CPS guidelines. Not because I think you should prosecute your DH, but to look at the list of behaviours and make a judgement about how many fit.

I honestly don't know what could have the context. I'm sure I was having an episode and getting the "the red mist". Probably he was just being stubborn, he can never be (even now) a calling force whenever I'm having an episode he just let's them escalate.

I do know that from those few times when it has happened (maybe 3?) and I'm sure the last one was probably at least two years ago. He sometimes tells me "go on hit me" and will hold my wrists that it could get painful. Last time of this was that Saturday when we were coming back from the holiday.

Most of the time though, the violence hasn't been towards him its usually against me (I pull my hair) or at inanimated objects. Sometimes followed by suicidal thoughts (which are very common in someone with my condition). Thank goodness I haven't have much of any of that in the past 2 years.

Yes, he keeps bringing up. And actually I hadn't thought about it for a very long time. The book made me think about it (why does he do what he does), so that was one of the reasons I just simply stopped reading it, it was kind of painful.

@SummerflowerXx thank you so much for taking the time to look into all of this.

He's honestly terrible at reading emotions, he's even worse at handling others. I've seen this in action with his family.

He's so terrible that we have a rule that we're very open about how/when we want things there's usually no subtlety. Example, Monday we went out for drinks with his friends, I was CLEARLY bored to death, he then asks me if I wanted to leave and yes maybe I should have said "yes" but instead said "as you wish". I think most people would have got that.

When we were on holiday I actually saw what a "calming force" feels like, my friend's husband is just like that. I was amazed of his skill to calm things down by just talking normally!! I always thought the "emotional intelligence" was a but of BS but no it does exist!

Sorry that went into a tangent - my point was that TrailingWife is right to suggest contextualising the fact that you slapped your husband. I also think you are 'owning' your behaviour - it was poor behaviour at times - but you have owned and addressed it. That is part of growing up. Abusers 'own' none of their behaviour. They are teflon.

CPS guidance

I suspect you might look at this and think - this does not apply to me. But think about it cumulatively and at the micro-level of how your life is and/or has been shaped by the dynamics of your marriage. And then what has happened when you have sought to change things.

I am open to being wrong here. I don't know you beyond what you have posted on here. But I think there is a point upthread about the need to disaggregate what YOU think from the explanations and beliefs of your husband. People have many identities in life - wife is only one. It is telling that when you became friend, your DH put you back in the 'wife' box with it becoming a couple friendship. Very glad you are having one to one counselling, but keep it private - whatever you tell him will just give him more weaknesses to exploit. Sorry, I know you don't want to believe that.

Keep a journal and keep it very private. After your counselling sessions, write all your thoughts down there. Keep your discussion about it with DH minimal - stock phrases like it is interesting or helpful, how was your day? I think you are probably a naturally open person and you may need to curb this here.

X-post. I need to get ready for work. Look up Women's Aid. I will post some resources later, but I would say you need a plan here.

Can he access the device you are posting from and are you sure your posting and web history is safe?

What happened last Saturday when you were coming back from holiday? Where were you when he was holding your wrists?

He went crazy because I lost him while trying to find our room. He called me thoughtless, inconsiderate and I can't remember what else. He was upstairs I went looking for him everywhere but upstairs. He wouldn't stop shouting, I snapped and grabbed the backpack for heat I can't remember (possibly throwing it on the floor so I could get "release"), he then grabbed my wrists. At this point I think I was crying already and don't quite remember what happened next. All I wanted was to leave that room and go for a walk. I got out and went to cry to the car. I finally calmed down and went upstairs. Sadly that's probably the freshest memory that I have from that holiday.

Wow, that reminds me of the time I waited on the wrong side of the cafe door for xH. It was a tipping point when I realised it was not normal. Wanting to get away from someone who is shouting at you for a trivial misunderstanding is a normal human reaction. Fight, flight or freeze.

Chucking the backpack at the floor = fight
Going to the car = flight.

Holding someone in a room and shouting at them for getting lost, not letting them go = abuse.

💐

Why could you not leave the room when he was shouting? Could you have got to the door?

Yeah he was on the way to the door. I was also getting ready, getting my jacket, keys, phone, earphones. He calmed down and apologized before I fell left the room but I was already in a flood of tears and needed to calm down.

I want to make sure I understand this: You guys were both looking for your room, and the two of you got accidently separated. Because of this, he screamed at you and insulted you until you snapped. You grabbed a backpack, and he grabbed your wrists. You eventually left to cry and calm down.

This is not a normal fight. He created and shaped this fight.

In a normal fight, two people disagree about something, such as how to spend money. They both say (shout) what they think. They poke holes at the other one's reasoning. They eventually try to find a compromise.

In your example, something went wrong that wasn't anyone's fault, and then he went ballistic at you until you were unable to think straight. That's not a fight, that's an attack. This is not a case that he doesn't handle conflict well; rather, he created a conflict where none existed.

Why was he upstairs waiting for you to track him down? It sounds really odd, almost like he was hiding from you. May be I don't understand the situation, but it sounds like a set up.

@SummerflowerXx - this quote is really interesting to me, "He argues that snapping in the context of coercive control is about asserting the will to live more freely. You can snap in lots of ways."

I think that happens a lot -- that a woman is pushed and pushed, and eventually can't take it any more.

Yeah exactly it was not a fight, I didn't do anything wrong :/. Definitely not a set up, simply he was following me he was being slow, I thought he heard me say the room was on a different floor (that's why I never went back upstairs) but it turns out he didn't. While I looked for him everywhere else apparently he went knocking on doors to figure out which one was our room... That stressed him and we'll the rest is what I described in the other post. I have to say that after that incident (and another where he was just generally being moody / pissy) I gave him an ultimatum. Yes only two weeks have passed, but things are in a better place.

Yes, and he is Mr Reasonable because he calmed down and apolgised, while you still had to leave the room because of the level of distress, so you feel out of control.

Of course he calmed down and apologised, he entirely knew what he was doing.

What happened before you got lost? This was after the whole 'boner' thing where he was jealous, right. So yes, he was asserting himself again. What a twat.

This is not you; you are responding normally to him destablising you and your understanding of what is normal.

Deep breaths and focus. This is not you

Another cross post.

Things are in a better place til the next time (hopefully not but Google the cycle of abuse)

revolution... Did you suffer from PMDD before you met your husband?

I would be concerned. There is no way, if she was really your best friend, that she would develop a relationship like this with your husband. Any DH of a friend of mine is off limits for any kind of intimate relationship (friendship or otherwise) because it would compromise my loyalty to my friend.

She has essentially switched 'sides'. I'm not sure how she can function as your BFF if you can't share your issues with her. There must be quite a lot of awkward, unsaid things hanging in the air when you see her. That is pretty much the death knell for any intimate friendship.

The problem is that you can't now stop what is happening from the outside without cutting off contact with her and her DH completely. Or, have it out with them both about how distressing this is for you and how inappropriate you feel it is. Be blunt. It might put the dampers on the friendship for a while but it might save your friendship in the long run. I wish I had done the same with my former BFF.

I would not be ok with this. I'd agree with his offer to back off and say you can both find new friends. To me that's the safer option anyway. I think you'll find out more where you stand once you ask him to back off anyway. Sounds like this has gone a bit too far and I think you should tell your friend you're unhappy about the situation and your husband is agreeing to cool it off for a bit while you work on your marriage. I wouldn't be happy with this from either side. I would not expect my friend to be texting etc my husband over me.
Of course you'll always get people's saying oh it's just friends but people do lie within marriages to cover up affairs etc and this is one of those situations where you kick yourself later for not doing anything before when the signs were all there. Saying things like he doesn't like her in that way is classic material to deter you from stopping them being friends.
Maybe just go back and laugh to friend and say it's so funny some of the awful things dh says about you and then acts all friendly to your face. Well, if you're planning on losing the friendship anyway...

What did his behavior get him? What's the payoff? I'm sure there is one. ...

Was this punishment for something else (not having sex with him?) Was it to teach you to always have your focus on him? Was it to provoke you so that he could tell you that you are out of control and emotional? Something else?

Also, he was following you. At some point he couldn't see you, and he didn't shout for you to wait up? I really don't get it. My Dh and I travel a fair bit, and half the time I don't know our room number. We've never gotten really separated, and I can't imaging knocking on doors to see if they are my room. That's weird.

Yes @SummerflowerXx this was after the all his jealousy "episodes". The only way this is different from other times is that I've told him he cannot keep blaming me and my hormones for this, he has to take ownership of his actions. I am other to blame for all of what's wrong in our marriage and he at least has acknowledged that, so that's a big big start. The cat thing is another one, in the past we would have just said no... So I'm feeling hopeful.

@Painfulpain hard to know. I reckon I must have had symptoms but I really can't remember. My episodes started after I had my daughter, so it makes sense in that way.

@NannyOggsKnickers thanks for the input! Their friendship is just the tip of the iceberg. I reckon there must be some jealousy on her end too, because yes I have changed a lot. We both started in the same place so to speak and I turned into this much more confident , sexier version of me. I would probably feel the same way if it happened to me. This is all mere speculation though.

TrailingWife I'm actually not sure? Our friends tried to communicate with us, he obviously told me to ignore them and he just kept telling they could probably hear me shout?? It was an extremely stressful day, even the evening was stressful... The likelihood of both families having to share a miniscule room was very high at some point. So I just chucked it up to general stress. It also had a bigger effect on me because I had just saved the day, so felt completely deflated for something so minor.