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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Porn - don't know how to feel

194 replies

Mum157 · 09/07/2017 12:36

So, I've just looked at the history on my husband's iPad (I know I shouldn't have!) and it shows that he was looking at a porn site last night. The only time I can think that he was doing that was when he was sorting out the BBQ and I was upstairs having a bath.

Husband has a higher sex drive then me and I know that he likes porn, but I've never really thought about him watching it much..... and certainly not when I'm just upstairs having a bath! He must of just been watching it for a bit and not 'acted on it', so to speak....

I don't have a problem with porn per se, it just looked like really cheap crap stuff. And I think that it probably creates unrealistic expectations for men to have about their partners bodies and sexual behaviour.

I don't really know how I feel about it (and I know I'm rambling); I feel a bit disappointed and yucky, but also aware that he hasn't done anything wrong and he adores me, so I probably shouldn't give it another minute's thought.

What are other people's experiences? Thoughts?

TIA x

OP posts:
RhubardGin · 12/07/2017 11:51

There are a lot of men in porn, are they being coerced and exploited too?

mommy101 · 12/07/2017 11:52

Moussemouse I'm afraid it is common knowledge that porn does most certainly play a role in violence amongst other things actually...

Girlywurly · 12/07/2017 11:59

Duchess, if you want to start a thread on ethical clothing, I'll definitely join in and see if I can learn something. As Bertrand suggested, it doesn't have to be an either/or thing.

I used to watch films in which the women were interviewed before/after. Some of them were made by kink.com, a production company which was feted for it's ethics but has since been exposed as taking part in some very exploitative practices. I think that it's not enough to take porn at face-value. Sometimes the consent presented in these films can be a fantasy too.

JAPAB, surely you understand that real-life women are depicted in the 'enticer' shorts that you describe? These films are no less porn than anything else.

I don't understand your position. You appear to have conceded that many of the women in these films are in fact being abused. But you're happy to keep cumming to them as long as you've not handed over your credit card details??

Girlywurly · 12/07/2017 12:04

RhubarbGin, yes men in porn are being abused and exploited too. See the kink.com allegations: on gruelling shoots their custom and practice was to inject an erection inducing drug into the penis. A number of the men involved have suffered permanent erectile dysfunction as a result.

DixieFlatline · 12/07/2017 12:07

I'm not even sure why anyone's narrowing this down to a coercion angle only anyway. The way women are represented and treated in most mainstream porn is damaging to all women, whether you can be 100% sure (BS) the women in the porn you are watching are meaningfully consenting, and not being exploited, or not.

Adora10 · 12/07/2017 12:09

We also need to stop pointing the finger at men. Among younger women porn use is common place both with a partner and on their own

Says you? Personally it's the male specious who drive the porn industry ultimately, always have.

Disagree also that young women are using porn regularly, on their own and with partner, not me, and none of my friends either but no doubt you will call me a liar and say as per on here that EVERYONE does it.

Also the comparison between using porn and clothes is just really pathetic.

BertrandRussell · 12/07/2017 12:12

"We also need to stop pointing the finger at men"

Grin

Yeah-course we do.

Girlywurly · 12/07/2017 12:15

Yes, Dixie, setting aside all issues of consent, it's very troubling to think why so many men (and women) find such images of female subjugation sexually satisfying.

(On a personal level, I've found that quitting porn was easy in comparison to getting this shit out of my head Sad)

Moussemoose · 12/07/2017 12:19

BertrandRussell

"We also need to stop pointing the finger just at men"

Moussemoose · 12/07/2017 12:24

In the survey, 31 per cent of the women said they watched porn every week and another 30 per cent said they did so a few times a month

Not says me says the British Sex Survey.

And the evidence about porn 'causing' abuse is not "common knowledge". The link is difficult to establish and while lots of abusers do watch porn it is unlikely to be causal rather it confirms pre existing beliefs.

DeleteOrDecay · 12/07/2017 12:40

She had to cope with the fact that, years later, it was likely that men were still masturbating over what had happened to her.

That is truly awful, I've never thought about it like that but it seems so obvious now. Not only are some women raped on camera but it's uploaded onto the Internet where men can wank to it for years afterwards. They literally can't escape it, bloody torturous.

I see Japab is here justifying his porn use yet again, so predictable.Hmm

Op it doesn't sound like you are ok with it. Despite what anyone says it's ok to not be ok with porn. But I think you and your H need to sit down and discuss it so you both know where you stand.

Girlywurly · 12/07/2017 12:45

It's not about a particular video leading to a particular rape, it's about porn being an intensified expression of a whole culture that degrades women and dismisses their rights to full autonomy.

Example, if the Black and White Minstrel Show was re-run, it wouldn't immediately start converting people, zombie-like, into racist criminals. But it would nonetheless be evidence of some deeply disturbing cultural attitudes, and it would certainly feed into a wider atmosphere of racism in which discrimination and violent crime against minorities took place.

WhatToDoAboutThis2017 · 12/07/2017 14:20

Disagree also that young women are using porn regularly, on their own and with partner, not me, and none of my friends either but no doubt you will call me a liar and say as per on here that EVERYONE does it.

As a young woman in my twenties, I use porn regularly, as do my female colleagues (as I found out through a rather random conversation a couple of weeks ago).

MavisFlumpTheFairy · 12/07/2017 14:29

I agree Mummy101
I discovered my H was watching porn even when sitting in the same room and at every possible opportunity day and night.
He's watching stuff that's incredibly disturbing to me (including incest but not child abuse thank god) in order to get the same 'thrill' because he's desensitised to the more mainstream stuff.
It's finished our marriage. Full stop.

mommy101 · 12/07/2017 15:29

moussemouse I'm sorry but your wrong....

"A few years ago, a team of researchers looked at 50 of the most popular porn films—the ones bought and rented most often. [1] Of the 304 scenes the movies contained, 88% contained physical violence and 49% contained verbal aggression. On average, only one scene in 10 didn’t contain any aggression, and the typical scene averaged 12 physical or verbal attacks. One particularly disturbing scene managed to fit in 128!
The amount of violence shown in porn is astonishing, but equally disturbing is the reaction of the victims. In the study, 95% of the victims (almost all of them women) either were neutral to the abuse or appeared to respond with pleasuree_. [2]
In other words, in porn, women are getting beaten up and they’re smiling about it.
Of course, not all porn features physical violence, but even non-violent porn has been shown to have effects on viewers. The vast majority of porn—violent or not—portrays men as powerful and in charge; while women are submissive and obedient. [3] Watching scene after scene of dehumanizing submission makes it start to seem normal.._ [4] It sets the stage for lopsided power dynamics in couple relationships and the gradual acceptance of verbal and physical aggression against women. [5] Research has confirmed that those who watch porn (even if it’s nonviolent) are more likely to support statements that promote abuse and sexual aggression toward women and girls. [6]
But porn doesn’t just change attitudes; it can also shape actions. Study after study has shown that users of violent and nonviolent porn are more likely to use verbal coercion, drugs, and alcohol to push women into sex. [7] And multiple studies have found that exposure to both violent and nonviolent porn increases aggressive behavior, including both having violent fantasies and actually committing violent assaults. [8]
In 2016, a team of leading researchers compiled all the research they could find on the subject. [9] After examining twenty-two studies they concluded that the research left, “little doubt that, on the average, individuals who consume pornography more frequently are more likely to hold attitudes conducive [favorable] to sexual aggression and engage in actual acts of sexual aggression.”
If you’re wondering how sitting in a chair watching porn can actually change what a person thinks and does, the answer goes back to how porn affects the brain (See Porn Changes the Brainn_). Our brains have what scientists call “mirror neurons”—brain cells that fire not only when we do things ourselves, but also when we watch other people do things. [10] This is why movies can make us cry or feel angry or scared. Essentially, mirror neurons let us share the emotion of other people’s experiences as we watch. So when a person is looking at porn, he or she naturally starts to respond to the emotions of the actors seen on the screen. As the person becomes aroused, his or her brain gets to work wiring together those feelings of arousal to what is seen happening on the screen, almost as if he or she were actually having the experience. [11] So if a person feels aroused watching a woman get kicked around and called names, his or her brain learns to associate that kind of violence with sexual arousal. [12]
To make matters worse, when porn shows victims of violence who seem to accept or enjoy being hurt, the viewer is fed the message that people like to be treated that way, giving porn users a sense that it’s okay to act aggressively themselves. [13]
Viewers might tell themselves that they aren’t personally affected by porn, that they won’t be fooled into believing its underlying messages, but studies suggest otherwise. There is clear evidence that porn makes many users more likely to support violence against women, to believe that women secretly enjoy being raped, [14] and to actually be sexually aggressive in real life. [15] The aggression may take many forms including verbally harassing or pressuring someone for sex, emotionally manipulating them, threatening to end the relationship unless they grant favors, deceiving them or lying to them about sex, or even physically assaulting them. [16]
And remember that porn use frequently escalates over time, so even if users don’t start out watching violent porn, that may change. (See Why Porn is an Escalating Behaviorr_.)The longer they watch, the more likely they’ll find themselves seeking out increasingly shocking, hard-core content. [17]
Not surprisingly, the more violent the porn they watch, the more likely the viewer will be to support violence and act out violently. [18] In fact, one study found that those with higher exposure to violent porn were six times more likely to have raped someone than those who had low past exposure. [19]
Of course, not every porn watcher is going to turn into a rapist. But that doesn’t change the fact that pornography is hitting us with a tidal wave of dehumanizing violence. It makes no sense for our society to accept the messages of porn, while at the same time calling for full gender equality and and end of sexual assault. A large portion of the porn viewed by millions of people every day is reinforcing the message that humiliation and violence are normal parts of what sex is supposed to be. [20] It’s wiring the minds and expectations of the upcoming generation, making it harder for many young people to prepare for loving, nurturing relationships [21] and leaving both women and men feeling like they can’t express the pain it’s causing them. [22] (See Why Porn Leaves You Lonelyy_.)
Saying no to porn is helping to build a less violent world; one that’s more loving, just, connected, humane, sexy, and safe."

Girlywurly · 12/07/2017 15:31

Very sorry you had to go through that, Mavis. Flowers

An excerpt from Gail Dines's book, Pornland:

The desire on the part of users to convince themselves that they are masturbating to images of consensual, thrilling sex explains the narrative found in another popular gonzo PCP [pseudo child porn] subgenre, incest porn. Sites that sexualise and legitimise incest run the gamut of possible incestuous pairings (mother and son, sibling and sibling, extended family, and so on) but without a doubt, the most common portrayal is of a father and daughter. While it is clear that any sexual relationship between a father and his minor daughter is rape, the sites go to great lengths to provide the user with an alternative framing of father-daughter incest.

Indeed, if these sites are to be believed, then incest is what happens when a seductive and manipulative 'daughter' finally gets her reluctant 'father' to succumb to her sexual advances. On the site Daddy's Whore, the reader is invited to watch 'sexy naughty girls seducing their own fathers' and on My Sexy Daughter, the female performers are defined as 'sweet, irresistible angels teasing and tempting their own daddies.' [...] A typical storyline reads: 'I have fancied my father for years. I thought it was a perversion and I was afraid to reveal my emotions... Once I saw him in a wet dream. This was a sign. Still half asleep I went to his room and jumped onto his bed.' Of course, it doesn't take much to get the father to acquiesce, and surrounding the text are images of the 'daughter' being penetrated orally, anally and vaginally by the 'father'.

For those of you who think this stuff isn't being normalised and crossing into reality, in the last year, I've had two older guys who I know are the father's of teen girls ask me to call them' Daddy'. And another (also a parent of a teen girl) ask to spank my bottom with a slipper.

Would you be happy for the father of your kids to be watching this stuff? I sure as hell wouldn't. But it's out there on mainstream sites and gets millions of hits.

Adora10 · 12/07/2017 15:38

As a young woman in my twenties, I use porn regularly, as do my female colleagues (as I found out through a rather random conversation a couple of weeks ago).

So what, I don't, it's not about who does and who doesn't and who is right or wrong, it's a personal choice and my choice is no thanks, ok?

Adora10 · 12/07/2017 15:39

Girly, it's horrible, I am so glad my children are all fully grown.

Moussemoose · 12/07/2017 16:01

mommy10

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201402/common-sense-about-the-effects-pornography

A link to an article that has a different view backed up by research. I can find others.

My point is that the issues are not clear cut. It is not a case of porn = violence. There are nuances linked to the type of porn watched and the life experiences of the user.

Simply saying "men use porn and it causes violence" is unhelpfully simplistic.

Girlywurly · 12/07/2017 16:03

Thanks for that post, mommy. I'll certainly follow up those links you gave.

Girlywurly · 12/07/2017 16:05

Simply saying "men use porn and it causes violence" is unhelpfully simplistic

But that's not what mommy is saying. Another straw man argument?

Girlywurly · 12/07/2017 16:25

Moussemoose, I've just read the article you posted, the argument of which seems to be 'just chill out and use your common sense'.

My common sense tells me that a man who gets off watching a naked female being dragged by a leash to a toilet bowl and having her head flushed down, probably has issues with women that go well beyond his porn use.

It also tells me that a man who gets off to a fantasy that he's having sex with an underage daughter, probably poses some kind of a threat to a real life underage daughter.

Oh, and this statement strikes me as extremely complacent:

Greater social access to pornography actually correlates with a decrease in sex crimes

There is an epidemic of sexual abuse in this country, much of which goes unreported. Through my volunteering, I talk with many, many women and girls who have suffered in this way. Having led a sheltered life, I'd have never believed it had I not heard with my own ears. It's everywhere.

In trying to stop this suffering, we need to look at the part porn plays. It's not some magical fantasy kingdom that should be excluded from scrutiny.

Moussemoose · 12/07/2017 16:29

I am in no way implying we should not scrutinise porn. Much mainstream porn is indeed vile.

However, with the increased use and normalisation of porn, particularly among younger people I think the argument needs to move towards how porn can be produced in a way that does not harm the 'performers' rather than just 'porn is always bad'.

Girlywurly · 12/07/2017 16:37

Yes, but as I implied in my last post, the ethical problems with porn are not limited to the likely harm caused to many performers.

I don't mean to say 'porn is always bad'. Believe me, if somebody could magically produce a type of pornography that caused no direct or indirect harm, I'd be elbowing my way to the front of the queue!! I just can't imagine how it would be done... Ideas?

Moussemoose · 12/07/2017 17:46

newint.org/sections/argument/2014/03/01/argument-can-porn-be-ethical/

The debate in this article suggests some porn can be ethical. You just need to source it carefully.

One of the issues with porn is that it reflects sexual fantasies. By the nature of fantasy they are often taboo, people want to fantasize about being bad. It is the extent to which people are able to keep it as a fantasy that causes problems.

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