How do Men cope when their DW or DP EARNS MORE than them???

[drosophila]

Just wondering. I know some people in this situation and I think it is having an effect.

How much of a man's self esteem is tied up in being the main or sole breadwinner?

My sister has three and it doesn't stop her getting about - she has lived in three different countries (simultaneously) for the past 5 years and her children are great at travelling around and doing things. And my cousin has 2 and carried on travelling the world until she was forced to stop in order for the children to go to school. I think that the financial aspect is much more restricting than the physical logistics.

And on the leaving your child with strangers bit - my feeling is that leaving my newborn breastfeeding baby with a paid non-family member for love and care is a bit like sending my partner off to a prostitute when I'm too busy for sex... a complete no-no. But that's just my feeling.

Difficult distinction to draw though surely between leaving your baby with its father or your mother compared with a loving nanny who may well know it more than a grand mother.

Well I could post my comments that women living off men financially and in return providing sex and company is askin to prostitution but we're probably just both defaming prostitutes here who prop up many a marriage and are less of a threat to marriages than lovers.

Aren't you rather assuming by saying that men provide money, women provide sex in exchange that women don't enjoy sex and want it for themselves...

Well it certainly cost me a huge amount of payment by me to him on divorce per sexual encounter with him over my marriage if I calculated it like that. It would have been cheaper for me to use male prostitutes. I might have bought a better quality of service too.

Well, I don't feel like that at all . Extremely happy with our sex life... if only the children could leave us in peace a bit more often...

Getting back to the OP, and thinking about my own experiences, I think that the key is communication between the partners. If you can sit down and discuss it calmly, if both partners are happy that they are making the right choice, then there should not be a problem. The problems arise when one partner feels like they are compromising more than the other, or when the situation changes (illness, redundancy, etc).

The killer for us was the lack of effective communication - DH just didn't want to hear what I was saying (and of course, I was so clear in explaining it to him because I AM perfect). We had started off on the right tracks - we both worked before the kids came, I was hugely ambitious and DH was absolutely NOT ambitious, I returned to work very quickly after both children which we were both happy with (and here I agree with you Xenia, I found it extremely tough being with small children and longed to be at work). As I got higher up the ladder, DH took his foot more and more off the pedal. We were still fine about it all - genuinely happy with the balance. It was only when the pressure of one particular job started to get to me, I needed a break and DH did not want to change our lifestyle that things went so very wrong.

So I think in answer to the OP, whether the man's self-esteem is dependant on being the bread-winner depends on the man. And in order to be able to find that out, you need to talk very openly.

Orlando - I quite agree that lots and lots of talking is crucial. But I have also found that you can get a lot of information about how a man feels about what his role in the family ought to be from non-verbal cues. Men are not always very good at verbalising their feelings, and putting words (tactfully) on his feelings by reading the non-verbal stuff can work wonders in understanding family dynamics.

It sounds like Orlando did explain how she felt though and it was just a case that they had proceeded on one basis - her career first, he enjoyed being a home and then she wanted a change. A bit like if Anna's man next week said actually I'm very fed up with work, you go back full time to work and keep the whole family. That might not go down too well.

Xenia - two years ago I had a job offer for LOADS more money than he makes (and he really makes plenty). So we discussed me taking it, him staying at home...

Don't think either of us were made that way. Biology.

I think, as with all threads with the word MEN in the title here, the answer comes down to "it depends on the man". Some people are bothered, but an awful lot are not. It's not about gender - it's about people.

Very true Anna! I come from a family who has never stopped talking, about anything and everything, all the time, and usually all at the same time! DH comes from a family where the only time they talked was to criticise or abuse someone. Add to that DH's inability to cope with emotions, means probably that he just wasn't wired for effective verbal communication. I found it very difficult to find words for him, as I felt that I was putting words into his mouth which were not necessarily the right ones.

19 years of marriage later, we are currently working hard to save our marriage as I eventually got through to him by throwing him out 4 weeks ago! Funnily enough, he's now heard me and is seeing a therapist, and is really trying hard to listen to me. The things I have to do to get through to him!

UQD - absolutely right about people not gender. Do you have experience of what the OP is asking?

I would just quibble with Anna saying it's biology as we do have men who want to stay home and women who can't bear it like me; although I accept on the whole it seems to be the other way round.

Orlando - well, I really hope it works for the two of you. It's a long haul I think to get people not brought up to talk to be able to bring all their hidden feelings up to a conscious level and be able to talk about them openly - I've definitely been kept very busy with that issue over the past five years. We have made lots of progress and things are better all the time, but it is very hard work...

Xenia - I've just seen your message and frankly I'm a bit . Now call me over-sensitive maybe but when we discussed the original game plan it was very much a case of 'this is how we'll proceed for the time being, given the current set of circumstances, and let's see what happens, let's be prepared to make changes if needs be'.

I didn't just wake up one day and say I "want to change".

I won't go into all the details but DH was well aware that by the end, I was on my knees and sinking, but he did not want to face up to the reality of the situation and the consequences for him. The circumstances were that I was becoming extremely ill and it took a breakdown and subsequent hospitalisation for him to realise that actually I might have a point.

Xenia - I'm perfectly OK with people being biologically the other way round - men wanting to stay at home with children and women wanting to be the breadwinner. Just like I'm perfectly OK with homosexuals. Biology.

Surely the important thing is to find a life partner who complements you - ie if you both want to do 50% of everything that's fine, if one wants to be the breadwinner and the other the homemaker, that's fine, if both want to share opportunities sequentially as life progresses that's fine etc.

The hardest part isn't necessarily agreeing on a strategy but executing it.

sorry haaven't read all posts, but would say for us that yes, communication is key. I was working and earning more than my dh before having a baby but have given up work for the time being - to start with i found it so weird to be spending "his" money - even though we share all bank accounts. I didn't feel so free to spend money and this made me resentful. When my dh worked out how i was feeling he was flabbergasted and said that he totally saw all our money as shared because my staying at home allowed him to work - it might sound ridiculously old-fashioned but i think i kind of needed his "permission" to think of his earnings as my money too. Gosh, i bet some of you will think i am a right little houswife.. well i guess i am

Yes I do agree with that Anna. But it is also hard to predict exactly what life will throw at you, and what choices you will both be faced with. I think if you've found someone you can 'connect' with, if you've got the comms right, then the chances are you will be able to tackle hurdles together rather than separately. But very often you don't really know until you've met the hurdle, whatever it may be.

I think the only real connection I have with DH has developed in the past few weeks! It's slightly stunning to think that way, but at last I feel we are getting to the nub of our relationship and that feels good tbh.

(And I forgot to say it was good to hear after your 5 years of hard work, things are getting better - light at the end of the tunnel etc!)

Anna - I do agree with you to a point. What happens in your model when things change?

What happens when actually one partner does feel like stepping out of the pattern of life they are currently in?

Or what happens when they never actually chose their role in the first place - it just kind of happened!

I didn;t entirely get where BK was coming from yesterday, but can see it now that the thread has developed and particularly from Orlando's and Dino's posts.

I think there would be interested in the thread that says 'How do women cope when they earn more than their DH/DP?'

I'm a great believe in not getting hitched too young. I think we need time on our own to explore the world beyond the control of family and childhood friends to learn about ourselves and what we want from life before taking a decision on who to share that life with. The better you know yourself, the greater the chances of understanding what you want from a relationship.

That said, of course life throws up unforeseen hurdles and couples need to be able to tackle those together. IMHO a fantastic sexual connection is a great help to getting over those hurdles...

at fantastic sexual connection! (But I'm hoping that things will improve in that area as our relationship improves!!)

I agree with the marrying young point. I was 24 and DH was 23. I had travelled a lot with my family, and done a lot by then. DH hadn't. But I was utterly bowled over by being with someone who was utterly bowled over by me (if you see what I mean!). We had known each other in a group of friends for a few years before we got engaged and married. Frankly our relationship was a bit flaky in the early days, lord knows how and why we stuck at it, but we did. And finally we might now be sorting it out. It's taken a while though!

There's nothing wrong with marrying young if you've found the right person. (Obviously hard for me to write that given we divorced after 19 years married but I still think that's the case).

I think accepting that over a 40 year marriage things will change, people's views, that what you are at 21 isn't how you'll be at 31 or 41 and even at 50 you get the husband or wife who decides they'd like to give up work or buy a vineyard or one gets very ill and can't work etc. I suppose couples you get on well and love each other just work out those changes between themselves. My ex husband in the last 2 years we were together gave up his main full time job. I think that actually made us get on worse as we were suddenly spending a lot more time together sadly whereas had we always had a great relationship it could have been a change for the better.

Sorry for just jumping on in here without reading many of the threads. I just wanted to add to this, that I have for a while earned more than my DP, by a reasonable amount. I have an 8mth old DD, and about to return to work next week. I am a bit of a workaholic, and my DP does not really dig working that much. Given that it is better for him to drop hours than me, He has cut two days from his week to stay at home with LO, and I will hopefully be doing 30 hours over 3 - 3.5 days. This was a compromise for him, he does not want to admit he does not like working as his pride says he should be the breadwinner, and he has always found it a kick to his confidence that my career took off where his did not (lcommitment/effort?), but he was worried that hen we had children he would not take such an active role as he would be working full time. This means he does not have to miss out.
However, what I think I am saying, is for us, the opportunities presented themselves that resolved many difficluties that were once here. It means my DP is taking an active role in parenting, he can work without feeling he has to make loads of money, but still has a job so he feels like he contributes. We save money in childcare, I get to contnue to develop my career. Maybe by baby no.2 I can stay at home and he cn work as we will have enough equity. He dopes find it hard with me earning more, but being at home with LO meets many of his own needs.