How do Men cope when their DW or DP EARNS MORE than them???

[drosophila]

Just wondering. I know some people in this situation and I think it is having an effect.

How much of a man's self esteem is tied up in being the main or sole breadwinner?

I went into my relationship with expectations of absolute equality and actually feel guilty that I do not contribute as much as my dh to the family (and at the moment a big fat nothing as my grant has run out and can't get a job due to pregnancy, plus will never earn a tenth of what he does). His work has 'given me the chance' to do a PhD while I am unlikely to ever be able to return the favour, though he did live off me for a year when we were younger and I was working in banking.

We studied at the same place, always got similar results etc and now he is the breadwinner which didn't used to be the case and which I never wanted. I think I can understand bossykate's ambivalence but something in me would like to have the chance to be in that position, as I know it now will not happen.

Also in our marriage we never argued about money and when I started to earn quite a bit more we still didn't. I think that was because everything was joint and we had the same views, same responsible attitude, same lack of extravagance and same aims to buy a nice house, good schools etc. We both worked full time however. I don't know psychologically how I would cope with being financially dependent on a man but it's unlikely I'll ever be in that position anyway now.

it is definitely quite psychologically hard Xenia, if you have grown up seeing yourself as independent & feminist & have always worked hard. We never argue about money either but I always feel that fundamentally I lack power in the relationship even though dh has never sought to use my penury against me in any way.

Thos couple know where he is a SAHD and she has a pretty well paid job well it seems to be affecting their sex life. Sexual role-playing where she is always subservient has started to happen only since he has become a SAHD.

He also seems to be a bit depressed. He always says that he is happy as a SAHD and that it is best for the kids and even aargues wth her when she says she wants him to find a job.

DW has earned more than me at several points in our marriage. At some level I find it vaguely wrong. Partly that's being a bloke who isn't a "new man" at all, but also it's a thing about being "answerable" for how I spend it, if I didn't earn the money.

I think a lot depends upon why the imbalance occurs. If it's because the man's career has gone wobbly, then the woman can easily be "blamed", since even if she's nice about it, his screw up is highlighted. In our culture, far more women are happy to take some sort of gap without loss of face than men.
When I quit my last proper job (it was either that or get a gun), DW became the breadwinner, and I basically felt guilty until I started to make money again. That guilt doesn't just make many men miserable, it can trigger a search for scapegoats.

www, I don't know how I'd cope with it but probably depends on the relationship. Before we married we discussed these things and decided if we couldn't find a nanny then my ex would give up teaching and look after the babies. He was going to bring them to parks near work for me to breastfeed at lunch time etc but we found someone and both carried on working. So we always knew which of us would earn more and got married on that basis. It wasn't a problem.

It's alos a trust issue. If you give up work to be support by a man and then he leaves you and disappears abroad and doesn't pay a penny you are at risk and so are your children. I'm not sure I'd like that reliance and the power it can give him. I know women who tolerate affairs because they don't want poverty after a divorce.

Bossykate - don't be sad for me! I've had an absolute ball too - my work took me far and wide, I had experiences that I never expected to have, I've travelled all over the world, we've got a lovely house, have had lovely holidays etc etc. And I was happy that DH was happy, that the kids were happy too.

It was when things start to unravel that I struggled with the pressure. DH, who had grown to love his freedom, kind of 'tuned out' when I tried to explain how I felt, various other things happened which also conspired against me (sick parents, DS being bullied, my own cancer blah blah blah) and boom - the whole lot just collapsed. In fact DH has only just come to terms with the fact that I cannot earn anywhere near what I used do, and that he has to up his workload accordingly.

But three, nearly four, years later, I am profoundly grateful to have gone through that experience (bizarre though it sounds). Finally I have realised that there is more to life than selling my soul to the corporate devil. It might be right for some - men or women - and it might be wrong for others - men or women. I have found something I am truly happy doing and can provide for my family in a very different way. I am also much stronger. I have told DH in no uncertain terms that this is who I am now, that I will never be that corporate wage-slave again, and if he doesn't like it, he knows where the door is. I am perfectly prepared for him to walk, I have my own 'nest' tucked away for emergencies.

And no Xenia, I do not feel like a "burden".

BK - if you want to email me, then let me know and I'll give you my email address. It's a lonely position to be in sometimes!

Orlando, as long as as many men as women have that right - to say I'm fe up with work or I want to go part time and you the wife must get out there and earn more. Sadly I don't think all women are happy for that to work both ways.

orlando, thank you, that is very kind

"dh... kind of tuned out... when i tried to explain..." yup.

although i must say, like you, it is definitely not all bad by any means!

xenia, i'm sorry, i think you make some true and reasonable points at times, but you are just not getting it here... you're berating the very people you say all women should be! the ones who go to work and, in many of the cases here, are the main earners just like you! don't get why you are telling us off! normally you are getting on the wrong side of the sahms!

i for one agree with you that it is entirely possible that men get fed up with the provider role - although i suspect for cultural reasons it is a less likely outcome than a woman getting fed up over time with a main earner role.

I think that main breadwinners, whether man or woman, sometimes get fed up with all that work and responsibility just as much as the person who does all the chores and/or all the bringing up of the children sometimes gets fed up. It's always hard in life feeling constantly burdened with a huge, unremitting responsibility and I think everyone needs to feel properly appreciated and valued for the work they do (whatever it may be) and the contribution they make to family life.

That's why it's good for couples when each has experience of and skills in the full range of life responsibilities - a SAHM is likely to be much more understanding of her partner if she herself has had a serious career, a man more understanding of an SAHM if he has also had frequent sole charge of house and children EVEN IF at certain points in life the rational division of labour means that each one doesn't always do half-and-half of everything.

I agree A.
To the post below I was just saying it should be sexually neutral and not fair on men that they will always be the one having to soldier on in work they hate whilst women opt out and sit around at home for the next 20 years just because men are male. Couples should take sexually neutral decisions and perhaps share all burdens to make things feel fairer. A lot of men do get fed up with all that falling to them all the time just as women resent sometimes having to do so much at home. I don't think enough women realise how hard it can be for men to have that financial burden and sole responsibility on them, that's all.

Of course for those of us without the luxury of a man or a housewife we have 100% responsiblity for everything but that's a different issue.

Quite agree. Far too many men imagine being a SAHM is dead easy. For me and dh - given we would have equal earning potential if he were well - the ideal balance would be both to work part-time and look after ds part-time. No self-esteem issues, we've lived in Sweden for too long!

Hmm, I am quite agreeing with Anna888, not Xenia. I do find the financial burden tiring, but don't agree that burdens have to be shared equally for a relationship to be equal.

Just to add another perspective, my DH has his own business and works from home. I earn about twice what he does. He spends loads more time with DS than I do, and has more time at home. (Though does not seem to get more chores done )
When I was having a bad time at work I was really fed up as I wished I could change job but knew I would never get such a well paid, local and flexible job (I work 4 days per week since having DS) so could not make that choice even though I was so stressed it was making me ill. I was very jealous of his ability to make his own choices whereas I had a mortgage to pay! I felt my 'responsibility' quite strongly then, and he was upset as he wished I could have handed in my notice but realistically couldn't support me in doing that. Apart from this it has never been a problem in ten years together, so I guess I am lucky?

I think the burdens should be shared equally but that they don't, in a non sexist society, have to be the same burdens. It was fine I did our tax returns for 17 years and that my husband did the dentist trips for the children. What you don't want is someone working (at home or outside of home) for 50 hour working week and then 20 hours housework whilst he or she does 50 hour working week only or whatever. Should be same kind of hours or burdens, I suppose unless you're both happy with that.

Orlando, my word what a tough time you've had . I'm really glad to hear that you've come out on the other side of it so happily now.

I have always earned significantly more than dh and for a while it was not a problem. The nature of my job means that I am away overnight a couple of times a month (used to be every week) and as I work in sales, team nights away tend to be focused on celebrating success and the drinking that goes with that. I don't do the getting wrecked thing and am usually one of the 1st to hit my bed but dh really struggles with my being away or staying out for what he sees as unneccessary jollies.

I get pissed off cox I am a client manager and that involve networking/being sociable etc. He gets pissed off coz he's left "holding the baby" so to speak. Probably biggest cause of our arguments (along with money). I try and avoid being away overnight for that reason - but that can make me resentful at times (as much as I try not to be).

I have been the only earner for three years and will be for the foreseeable future, unless dh gets the funding he's just applied for (we hear next week). If he doesn't he will be looking for a job or alternative funding, but in the current climate over here that is likely to take some time. In that time he has been an unfunded PhD student and SAHD. I have been doing a job I liked but did not love and began to find increasingly frustrating - my contract runs out at the end of the month and I will start another job I will like but not love (in a different field, but I have done it before), at a lot less money (partly because I am reducing my hours somewhat - so added to the pressure of the financial responsibility will be the pressure of knowing things are financially tight. Tbh I would have much preferred to be a SAHM, at least for the first three of four years of ds's life. The best thing about my job was the flexibility, allowing me to spend plenty of time with ds. Along with these things I have been squeezing in work towards my long-term goals wherever possible. I am tired out (am also 14wks pg), and although dh is a fantastic SAHD and has loved the experience, I know it has bothered him acutely not to have been contributing financially. It's not been his 'fault' as such - the German graduate labour market was an utter catastrophe when I took my current job three years ago, and soon enough I was pg and it made sense, given the flexibility of my job, for us to do it this way. But I really, really do see where bossykate is coming from, and it's occasionally been all I can do not to burst out with resentment at not having a 'provider'. I've been jealous of dh for being able to be a SAHD and study, and he has been jealous of me for bringing in the money and still being the one who ds wants at night... We are hoping to be able to move to sharing the earning and the childcare after my mat leave. We have a very strong relationship and currently things are good, despite all the worries, but we have both recentlx acknwledged that the situation has put a strain on things. It is a big thing for me, tbh, not to have been able to be a SAHM.

I'm quite amazed at some comments on the thread. Why should women need a provider any more than a man? Is it because they were brought up in sexist homes? I never even 20 years ago expect a man to keep me in any way shape or form.

"but don't agree that burdens have to be shared equally for a relationship to be equal. "

No they don't if that's OK for both parties. I agree with Xenia to the extent that it's always assumed that men are happy to be out there bringing home the bacon - so that woman can have the choice not to. Obviously there are plenty of women on MN who do the bacon thing but there is an undercurrent of it being by neccessity rather than choice - myself included much of the time even though I enjoy my job. Being a SAHM is hard too but if it's what you want, mother or father, it's a shame to be unable to do it.

I do think that biology plays a part. I absolutely adored being a new mother and would have been desolate had I had to leave my baby with a stranger while I went out to work (though I had no problem leaving her with my mother when I wanted some time off). My partner loves and adores his children, but his tolerance for being with them is far less great than mine and by the end of the weekend (let alone the holidays) he is chomping at the bit to getting back to a bit of bear-slaying and macho stuff.

I'm like your partner, Anna. As I've said else where 2 hours is about my limit, although with a tiny new born baby I'm breastfeeding that's slightly different for me. I think quite a lot of women work because they want to and because they find small children, like your partner, not exactly dull but they'd rather do something else or work. I find them hard work and frustrating and I suppose I just get bored with it after a few hours. If I start to feel like that, now they're bigger I'll just go into my office and read the paper but you can't do that with very little ones.

It may be more women than men however are like you. it's a personality thing too. With children you keep doing the same thing again and again and you don't really get the immediate results, rewards, pleasure and praise you get through work. Even housework can seem more rewarding - seeing it all tidy or the doing the garden yet for many parents the looking after of the children is rewarding in itself and obviously I've had 5 and enjoy having them and the long term pleasure in seeing how they turn out but I can't really cope with that on an hour by hour basis. Like a lot of fathers I'm sure my few hours a day input is good for them and I play quite a role in how they develop but I couldn't be doing it all day.

Xenia - yes, I've understood that from your previous posts.

But I think (in fact I am quite sure) that all women are not able to leave their children easily with strangers when they are very little and don't find being with their child(ren) all day dull. I certainly don't - though perhaps I am very lucky in having a hugely robust child who is almost never ill and doesn't at all mind trawling round shops, restaurants, museums, travelling around Europe and generally being out and about. I do have friends whose children constantly whine when out and want to go home and I would find that terribly trying.

Well once you have three under 5 it's a bit different and a lot of people can't afford to be taking them out on trips. I don't like this use of the word strangers. I don't think any of us leave children with strangers. It suggests a random person taken in off the street. We found and hired our first nanny whilst I was pregnant and she got to know the first baby when she was born and was left with her when the baby was 2 weeks old. The baby would know her as much as my ex husband and me.

Anyway I would not easily choose to spend a full day with a toddler but we're just different. It doesn't matter as long as parents are happy and children are well cared for. What parents need to avoid is pointless guilt. If the children are well cared for and if the alternative is mother or father at home virtually slitting their wrists from frustratino any nursery or nanny is better than that.