AIBU to expect a proposal by now?

[DarwinChrist]

DP and I have been together for coming up 6 years. We've lived together for 5 and have a DS who's 3.
I've been waiting and wondering if I'll ever get married. In the first year of our relationship he mentioned a few times that he wants to be married to me and have a big wedding etc. He talks about it now and again. But alas... I have no engagement ring.
He earns a good wage, we're very fortunate and living quite comfortably. He has said that he wants to save up a bit so that when we do get engaged we can start planning straight away.
I've repeatedly told him I don't want an expensive ring (I don't wear jewellery and have more of a simple taste anyway) and I've also said that I don't need a huge extravagant wedding.

What's bugging me lately is that he keeps saving up... and then buying something expensive for himself.
I know how ridiculous that sounds, because it's his money. But the first time he spent £4k on a car that he doesn't need, he gets a company car which he can use for personal use. He bought it so he would have 'something to tinker with on the weekends'.
Then he started saving again, and went on a lads weekend to Ireland.
Now he's saving so he can invest in his best friends nee business.

He has always given me the impression that we'll be getting married.

But when I have brought it up before his excuse is that he's saving for a ring.

I just needed a rant. Feeling a bit fed up.

Deciding to get married is something you should be equally involved in. You need to talk to him about it, not just sit there waiting and hoping. It should be an equal decision. How many years are you prepared to carry on just waiting for him to propose? What if he never does?

And if I were you I'd look into getting your name added on to the mortgage. Be proactive in doing so. You're in a vulnerable position not being on there.

Yes, being engaged is legally relevant if one person has relied on the promise of marriage to their detriment.

Darwin, this is why you need to see a solicitor.

Several people who clearly do not have knowledge of the law re cohabiting couples with children have made incorrect statements re your rights on this thread.

I have got a law degree (only graduated last year) and I studied family law so I know a bit about it but I haven't yet done the LPC so I cannot tell you how those principles, if any of them, would apply to you in practise (and I wouldn't over the internet anyway).

But please do go and see a solicitor for a free half hour of advice about the house. Even if they advise you that you DON'T have any entitlement re the house/assets in your own right you will be in a better position to decide what to do.

If I were you, op, when he comes home tell him you've woken up to just how vulnerable you are, should he die. How he wants to deal with this will tell you everything. If he's a good guy, he will make sure your future is secure. Easiest way is marriage, but otherwise visiting solicitors and getting some protections in place for you. If he's not willing, then you really do need to go back to work at the least.

Just to let you know, I would be feeling same if I were you OP! Xxx

Have you told him in the past engagement / ring / marriage is important to you?

This is not how I would live my life. Me and my husband got married because we had an adult conversation about what we wanted in life and being married was one of those things. You're adults: stop dropping hints like you're a kid hoping for a particular Christmas present and tell him what you want. He's the father of your child for heavens sake.

category I think that's what I'm going to do when he gets home tonight. Tell him how vulnerable DS and I are and that it must change asap. I'm fully prepared to guilt trip at this point.
I'm worried he'll agree with everything I'm saying but then never get round to doing anything because he's 'so busy'.
Don't really know what sort of deadline to give on this one. It's not like I need him to take something to the skip and he'll do it when he has time, I think he needs to make time. Like I said though, I am worried he won't bother.
Then I'm on my own.
offred thank you for all your great advice I will see a solicitor whatever happens. I'd hate for something to happen and DS and I are screwed.

I also have no idea how I'm going to approach the whole 'family money' thing. I don't think it'll go down well - his parents mentioned a pre nup when we got together and it's stuck. Plus they for some reason think I'm going to steal all his money and run off.
I couldn't care less about money tbh. I never have, I think it's the root of all evil. He knows this, just like he knows I dont want an expensive ring or wedding etc.

You NEED to think about money and should have before now. He could sort things out quickly: if he doesn't you can no longer bury your head in the sand.

I fear he knows full well how vulnerable you are, and cares less about this than his own assets.

A registry office wedding is extremely easy to arrange. If he says he's too busy, tell him you will do it right away.

And don't be put off by him making a will. He can make a will today leaving everything to you, just to keep you happy. And make another will privately tomorrow leaving everything to his mother. The latest will always wins.

OP, I'm sorry.
You had enough about you to find a man.
You were forward enough to breed with him.
But you're too shy to ask him to marry you?
Give over.
Ask him. Tell him. "John, I'd like us to get married on 30 January next year." If he says ok, go ahead. If not, leave him.
You need to establish some kind of security for yourself and your dc. That might be with the man, if he wants to marry you. If not, you need to go it alone.

I think a lot of his behavior is about power and control (especially as he has an overbearing bullying mum from whom he will have patterned behavior he may not even be aware how abusive he is being.).
I bet he sees his wage as "his" money, it is "his" house , being a SAHM means you are dependent on his largesse, it is easier and simpler for him if you remain unmarried. He knows you want to get married so that is another control he has over you. I think you may be frightened to approach him on the subject because you will have to face harsh choices if he says no to marriage.

What are you prepared to accept? - if he says no would you be happy for him to make you joint tenants on the mortgage? Set up life insurance with you as beneficiary? Make a will? These should be minimums to protect yourself if you want to go forward unmarried. Is it a deal breaker for you?

Read Women who love too much by Robin Norwood and if that pings any bells then move on to Lundy Bancroft's Why does he do that?
www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00PM2HWHK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&tag=mumsnetforum-21

You need to have a serious talk with him and lay out what you want and have your contingencies lined up. He will continue to treat you as his housekeeper and subordinate if you do draw a line in the sand now and the treatment will eat away at the core of your being.

You cannot let him put you in a position where you could end up with no roof over your head. As a minimum, the house needs to be 50% in your name. And you need 50% access to savings and money. Does he want you to continue being a sahm? If so, these things need to happen ASAP. It doesn't matter if it "doesn't go down well". That tells you what you need to know.
If he doesn't care whether you stay at home, then the other option is to get a FT job ASAP and protect yourself and your son.
Personally, I could not put up with this. As I said before, we're not married but we own everything 50%, have wills and life insurance. These are a minimum in my view

Ps and the life insurance needs to make clear you are the beneficiary. NOT his mother

When you talk to him, and he agrees (hopefully) to put things in place, you set up the appointment with solicitors/advisors together. Don't let him fob you off with he 'will get round to it'.

I couldn't care less about money tbh. I never have, I think it's the root of all evil.

As a parent caring about money is your responsibility now. And it's 'the love of money is the root of all evil', not money itself - for instance, dropping thousands on a new car while your girlfriend who cares for your son full-time can't get a haircut.

We did buy a house but everything is in his name.
He has said many times that he'd never get married without a prenuptial agreement.

Jesus Mary.

He told me he couldn't put my name on the mortgage, he had to apply by himself for it because of our credit ratings etc.

You do know this is utter bollocks right. If you were working, even minimum wage, two incomes is always better than one for a lender because - more income and more risk spread.

I think you need to stop focussing on the romantic "I want a Hollywood proposal and for him to want to" side of it and focus on the fact you have a child and are massively financially vulnerable.

Do you understand the position you and your child would be in if he came home tomorrow, told you he'd fallen in love with the 18 year old new receptionist and work and wanted you to move out?

I'm another vote for the talk to him directly. Tell him you want to get married and regard this as essential. I'd also set a deadline - but as you've said it isn't a deal breaker for you this puts you in a difficult position. There is no point in setting a deadline if you aren't going to follow through and leave - and if it's not a dealbreaker for you then you won't.

I could have written your post!

It's easy for people to comment "you propose to him" but in our family/friendship groups that would come accross as extremely desperate and embarrassing. Not everyone has the same opinion but my personal belief is that the man should propose (preparing to be flamed and kicked off mumsnet for being anti-feminist)

I do find it strange that he can commit to having a child with you but hasn't proposed. It's quite common though. A lot of people I know say that they are ready for children but not marriage which sounds insane to me. Children are the biggest commitment of all.

Watch out for comments like "just don't go there". That is controlling speak. He is refusing to discuss something by suggesting (not even saying) that it is an unreasonable subject of discussion. As he hasn't said it explicitly, just made you think it by rolling his eyes etc., you can't say "Remember that time you forbade me to talk about XYZ", as he didn't explicitly do that. There's no "proof" that he meant what you think he meant. At the same time, because he has given the impression that it is an unreasonable, stupid or laughable subject, you don't dare bring the subject up again for fear of looking stupid or nasty. It is a form of thought control.

I know this paints an extreme picture, but it is what he is doing, probably not consciously but just as his spontaneous way of avoiding subjects he doesn't like. The tactic is working. You don't feel able to propose. You are reduced to dropping silly hints about dresses rather than having a serious, adult conversation about you and your children's future financial security.

So when you do have that serious conversation, if he does try to avoid the subject by making out that you are reducing his manhood or some such crap, call him up on that. Say that you are not talking about his manhood, you are talking about making sure you don't end up on benefits. Ask how he plans to give you financial security.

And this is not about feminism at all. It is about both parents taking responsibility for their children's financial security. Which you can do via marriage, or by other more complicated means. But not doing either is hugely irresponsible.

as extremely desperate and embarrassing

Not as desperate or embarrassing as ending up homeless and destitute FrenchMartini. Financial security trumps social awkwardness.

You say you aren't interested in money but you can't have your hair cut or buy clothes, you have a low food shopping allowance and take your DC to the park - presumably because you don't have access to money to go anywhere which you would have to pay for.

If, despite knowing that you want to get married, he is still making excuses not to propose, why on earth would you put yourself out on a limb by asking him?? He obviously doesn't want to get married. All of his actions are screaming that, you can see that surely. I have no problem at all with women doing the proposing however surely you would want to be pretty certain of getting a positive answer before doing so. Having already made him aware of your wishes, it would absolutely make you seem desperate to go ahead and propose as things stand.

Besides which, the financial situation being what it is, why would you want to marry him? It all sounds terribly unequal, not at all what a partnership/marriage should be.

When I 1st met dp ten years ago. Yes dp not dh.
I told him from the off I wanted to be married. He said he did too.. I told him I didn't want a ring or a big wedding. Just a happy marriage. His family wasn't happy about that because they like a good doo.
Convinced him I was being selfish just because I didn't have any family that I was pushing his out too.
I did tell him however I do expect a sincere proposal. I had to know he wanted to marry me and not just going along with it to keep me sweet.
So I left the ball in his court.
He did everything you've described buying everything he could afford but kept saying he had something planned.
Anyway Valentine's past, my birthday past, Christmas past. We have always done new year. Christmas is for the kids. We don't even buy Each other presents. But new year is ours. We always do something big..
He told me his dm had offered to have the dcs new year but we haven't really any money to do anything and it was probably too late to book something anyway. So I stupidly thought new year was the night. Got myself all excited. And nothing. No plan no proposal fuck all. I was fuming. Had a massive row led me to going out on my own with some friends. He said he didn't know i was expecting him to propose. It had been 3 years since I told him I wanted to get married. It's not like I'd never mentioned it since either!
Anyway the summer after he proposed in a caravan in Wales. With a shit £50 last minute not too my taste too big ring. I would have preferred no ring than a ring he had clearly put no effort into. Still said yes though.
I booked the registery office to go and put our bands in. Sold my dad's wedding ring so we could by rings. We still have separate money so the deal was. I buy the rings he pays for the registery office. Probably both about the same amount. At the time he earned quite a bit more than me. But every time we was due to go to the registery office. He conveniently had a cash flow problem . So we had to re book. And again and again.
Anyway 10 years later. I'm gutted we never got married. I poured my heart and some out explaining why it was so important to me. I won't marry him now because I know too much about his flaws now. But If I was married I would have excepted them flaws.
I don't think we will last forever. I think once the kids are older we will drift apart. And I really don't care. If we was married I would have worked dam hard to make sure we worked. Would have sacrificed anything. But not now. Just feel like we're raising the kids together and that's it.
He also says he really regrets not getting married. I know he adores me and would love to grow old with me. But for me I feel like I've been let down too much to try and make it work sometimes.