What kind of men use prostitutes?

[Snugglepalace]

Dh has an outside job which involves spending time on various roads within towns and villages.
A couple of weeks ago he was working on a street in our local town. An everyday street with semi detached homes.
After a day or so Dh and his work colleagues noticed one particular house had a lot of 'visitors'. All the visitors were well dressed men arriving in nice cars. It averaged around 4 men per hour!
At lunchtime a car pulled up (the driver had pizzas) and the door was opened,there was an older woman in the hallway and several younger looking women loitering in the hallway also.

Dh and workmates are convinced it was a brothel. Over the weeks that they were working there they would glare at the men going in and said some of them looked very embarrassed once they realised they had been noticed, one even parked in a nearby supermarket and tried to get in the back way.
I know these things go on but what got me was the thought that surely, several, if not most of these men must have (oblivious?!) partners etc.

I’m not really sure if they actually respect the women involved, on the surface maybe, but subconsciously…

Take a step back and think about what you are writing. You are claiming to know the thoughts and perspectives of people who pay for sex. This is literally claiming to have mind-reading capabilities; it's irrational.

What also annoys me is the hypocrisy. Say e.g. in the Netherlands, ask a woman what she thinks about prostitutes, you’re probably going to hear something along the lines of that’s their choice etc… Still most would probably not be amused if their (prospective) partner admitted to have visited prostitutes (before her). Or another one; why is one of the more popular football chants “your mother is a whore” –directed at the referee or someone else. If that’s the worst thing you can think of then surely, you don’t respect them. Or why is nobody proudly posting on facebook that their daughter decided to become a whore?

I agree. So let's fight the stigma and decriminalise sex work, so people can stop being bigots towards sex workers.

I think I'd mind my own business. It's not pleasant but people have to earn money however they can. I've known some young women who have done that for a while, it fitted in with their studies and they could also work while child at school. Nobody knew unless they confided (as they did in me). They kept themselves clean and safe and earned quite a lot, even able to save a deposit for a house. So we shouldn't sit in judgement.

The sort of men who visit prostitutes are usually lonely people. They may be single or in an unloving marriage. It's a form of escapism, there's so much more to it than sex. For an hour or so they feel cared for.

Ok I only got to page 4- but I’d like to say that NottheFord is a regular poster who has always impressed me with her elegant, considered replies and genuine concern for other people on this forum on a whole host of issues. I doubt she’ll see this post, as this thread is so voluminous, but if you do NottheFord I want to thank you for the way you handle occasional vitriol on here and seek to educate kindly and without judgement despite getting very mixed responses in return. The thing about sexwork to non-sex workers (as you clearly are so compassionate towards) is that it is frightening to a lot of women who rely on society mores as personal promises to to them. And so much about what the possibility of sexwork represents about how society, and people they know, really jars with some women’s idea of safety of the marital construct, what honesty is, commitment means, what desire is, how those conflict- what realism is, what a womans body is- and propriety over their body and selfesteem and freedom. And they project all of that real injustice and incongruousness and respond with fury. I think you sound like a really gracious and interesting woman with more autonomy and consideration than most, and thank you for bringing your perspective. Xxx

www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-01-29/mega-brothel-inside-a-german-sex-palace/

What can we learn from this then? legalisation causes a vile industry to grow? liberal arguments are pathetic. 'we cant be arsed to try and change society and attitudes for the better, or for people to take any personal responsibility- so lets just use some half arsed legal compromise that soothes my guilt.'

And stop with this crap that people are being 'bigoted towards sex workers' for fucks sake. We're grown ups here.The people we despise are the men who use these women as fuck holes.

Brel, when I went to Belgium a few years ago I was on a train into Antwerp and saw what you described, big windows and women in very little dress displaying themselves. Never seen anything like that before or since. Obviously it isn't a big deal in some countries.

There are brothels here but far more discreet. I watched a TV documentary about one a while back, run by a woman and her daughter. The women who used it paid a bit of commission to the owner, they were safe and there were a lot of regulars. The men could choose who they wanted from photographs, each girl had a website. They'd book for half an hour, an hour or whatever. Tea and coffee provided.

There was great camaraderie between the women and they made lots of money.

Interesting.

The men could choose who they wanted from photographs, each girl had a website.

Women (or should that be 'girls') as merchandise, selected from photos in the same way that you'd buy a computer or a pair of shoes online.

Nice.

Did the website also specify their measurements and 'specialities'? One must know what one is paying for after all. Great that they got free tea and coffee though.

*There was great camaraderie between the women and they made lots of money.

Interesting.*

Not really, unless you're naive to think that a puff piece on TV shows the actual reality of prostitution as it is lived for most 'girls'.

www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-01-29/mega-brothel-inside-a-german-sex-palace/

What can we learn from this then? legalisation causes a vile industry to grow? liberal arguments are pathetic. 'we cant be arsed to try and change society and attitudes for the better, or for people to take any personal responsibility- so lets just use some half arsed legal compromise that soothes my guilt.'

What we learn from that is like any industry, be it offices, factories, coal mines, there are good and bad ones. Legalisation allows this to be addressed.

We have laws in this country governing health and safety, wages, fire exits etc. Do all employers stick to them, of course not. But we wouldn't dream of banning travel agents if we found one that we badly run. We'd look to shut it down.

When industries are illegal, the workforce universally get a bad deal.

liberal arguments are pathetic. 'we cant be arsed to try and change society and attitudes for the better

A better society according to who? Christians? Conservatives? But what if I don't agree it's a better society, and sex workers don't agree it's a better society? The beauty of liberalism is that it takes account of the fact that all people are different, and have different attitudes and beliefs.

And stop with this crap that people are being 'bigoted towards sex workers' for fucks sake. We're grown ups here.The people we despise are the men who use these women as fuck holes.

I have seen a lot of bigotry towards sex workers from both men and women. Saying you haven't seen this is disingenuous.

Zero point in trying to normalise this to me or any normal thinking person.
The men that use women and pay them to fuck them yes I'll tell it for what it is
Are nothing more than entitled creeps who make my skin crawl.

Women who happily let a man use them for money are doing nothing for the equality of other women. They are saying it's okay to use me for sex and it's okay if you are married because I have zero morals. Yes that is my opinion. If you think opening yourself up to the risk of STD's, danger and sleeping with a married man is okay. You need help.
I only feel sorry for the women who have this forced upon them. Those that choose this kind of life don't have my sympathy.
Take this comment as you will.

IcedPurple, I don't remember every detail but the women did design their own websites and described themselves. They also met some clients in a sort of reception area before taking them upstairs. What surprised me the most was how ordinary it seemed to them, the women were genuinely nice and friendly and if a chap was a bit nervous, they were able to put them at their ease.

Thousands of years of oppression of women and conservative social and sexual values enforced sometimes with violence have failed to wipe out prostitution.

And stop with this crap that people are being 'bigoted towards sex workers' for fucks sake.

Followed closely by

Women who happily let a man use them for money are doing nothing for the equality of other women. They are saying it's okay to use me for sex and it's okay if you are married because I have zero morals.

and

Those that choose this kind of life don't have my sympathy.

To answer the question ones that like to have STDs as protection won’t protect from the 2 most prevalent ones.

I was going to point out the same thing Craft. The cognitive dissonance is real... they will insist they don't have a problem with women who sell sex, but their comments clearly show sex workers are hated because they won't hesitate to have sex with men who are in relationships. I'm starting to question if they care about sex workers at all... it seems that they're just worried about men cheating, which, somewhat bizarrely, reinforces an old stereotype about women which I thought had been dismantled a long time ago.

You see what you want to see. The issue is with men who have no compunction about buying women for sex. The women involved are not the people I have a problem with. I hold the men involved wholly responsible for any infidelity or risk to their unknowing spouses.

FamousPJ

I accept that it was an over-generalization. It was a quote from a rapport that I recently read, from the Dutch national rapporteur on trafficking in human beings and sexual violence against children. It contained research from the GGD Amsterdam (health institute), that clearly stated that a very large part of the customers (so not all) are only interested in sexual satisfaction and view the prostitute as an object to be used for pleasure. Regardless of her interests. No worries though; as a result of this the GGD Amsterdam has decided to develop a set of guidelines on how to respectfully interact with prostitutes… .

I don’t think we’re going to find common ground. The issue here is I have more or less an abolitionist vision on prostitution; you have a laborious vision on the subject. It’s very difficult (if not impossible) to reconcile both visions.

That’s also what I meant with moral gymnastics. People, who are intent on visiting a prostitute, will usually find a reason that makes it okay in their minds. I prefer women who like me for me, and that don’t require payment.

Bluerussian

Oh you have plenty of places like that in both Belgium and the Netherlands (in clear daylight). In some places they’ve literally driven the local prostitutes out of business; extremely cheap and they perform additional (un)safe sex-acts. The issue is, practically nobody cares, as long as the nuisance is limited. There were problems a few years back; when the French tightened their prostitution laws leading to a massive influx of French punters (led to stationing of French police officers- lots of fighting etc…). I’m not saying they are doing nothing, recently there was an arrest of an Albanian kingpin, who ruled the entire prostitution quarter behind the Brussels-North station. Upstanding fellow; he was convicted for human trafficking (Albanians and Serbians), beating up prostitutes (and marking them with tattoos), rape, and probably a few things that I’ve forgotten. Not enough though

I hold the men involved wholly responsible for any infidelity or risk to their unknowing spouses.

I'm glad we could agree on something.

People, who are intent on visiting a prostitute, will usually find a reason that makes it okay in their minds.

I've never had to find a reason to make it okay in my mind, because I've never seen a problem with it. So long as both people are consenting, then there's nothing wrong with it, which makes it okay.

I’m not saying they are doing nothing, recently there was an arrest of an Albanian kingpin, who ruled the entire prostitution quarter behind the Brussels-North station. Upstanding fellow; he was convicted for human trafficking (Albanians and Serbians), beating up prostitutes (and marking them with tattoos), rape, and probably a few things that I’ve forgotten. Not enough though

Discussions around pimps and sex traffickers are a red herring. Pimping and sex trafficking are still illegal in countries where prostitution is fully decriminalised. Criminalising the purchase of sex won't stop sex trafficking, because it's illegal anyway; if someone is already breaking the law, adding another law on top of that isn't going to discourage them!

I care about the sex workers whom are forced into that industry.
Those who choose it happily while sleeping with married men, is a whole other story.

However I also have zero respect for any man that chooses to buy sex. That would include you apparently @FamousPJ. Butter it up with what ever fancy terminology you like. The fact remains the same. You see women as an object that can be purchased, for use of their hole. Therefore you see them as below yourself.
Using the if I was gay card has no place, because you are not. Even if you were you would then also see men as objects you are entitled to. You are not!
Instead of playing the violin about not knowing how to connect with people. Go get help! And learn! The more you speak the more you sound entitled.
You and the women who choose this lifestyle are the absolute problem with why things don't change.
Like I say I quite literally ONLY feel sorry for the women who don't choose to bring this upon themselves.

The fact remains the same. You see women as an object that can be purchased, for use of their hole.

This is a depressing view of sexuality. I would still be paying for sex if there was no penetration involved. If you try speaking to men, you will quickly discover that male sexuality isn't as it's depicted in the media.

Therefore you see them as below yourself.

Rubbish.

Using the if I was gay card has no place, because you are not. Even if you were you would then also see men as objects you are entitled to. You are not!

The point I was making was that the "men purchase women because they are sexist" argument doesn't hold any water. Logically, if it was due to sexism, gay men would not be buying sex from male sex workers.

Instead of playing the violin about not knowing how to connect with people. Go get help! And learn!

Been to counselling four times. Doesn't do much. People in clubs and bars (both male and female) depress me. Meeting people and dating is far too ruthless; the most depressing behaviour I have observed in dating is ghosting, and I still can't fathom how and why people do it.

You and the women who choose this lifestyle are the absolute problem with why things don't change.

We aren't doing any harm to you.

I'll ignore the rest of the rubbish you came out with because you will look for any excuse where one can be found.

You are doing the world of prostitution harm because you are saying it is okay to purchase sex. It isn't. Consent isn't something that can be purchased.

If you want sex with strangers that bad, join a swingers group. There everyone who chooses to have sexual relations with you would be consenting without the flow of cash. That I have no problem with. Ergo women and men can have free sexuality without being objects.

Again find another therapist and get help with the issues you have.

But you won't listen because you see it as an entitlement.
That is why I am done arguing with you.

I'll ignore the rest of the rubbish you came out with because you will look for any excuse where one can be found.

If you can't think of any rational reason as to why there's a problem with what I'm saying, then you need to reevaluate your positions.

You are doing the world of prostitution harm because you are saying it is okay to purchase sex. It isn't. Consent isn't something that can be purchased.

This was addressed previously. Consent can be on condition of payment. For example, if you're paid to have a novel drug put into your body for a clinical trial, then you've still consented.

If you want sex with strangers that bad, join a swingers group. There everyone who chooses to have sexual relations with you would be consenting without the flow of cash. That I have no problem with. Ergo women and men can have free sexuality without being objects.

It doesn't have to be with strangers. I enjoy sex with strangers, but I would also enjoy sex with someone I knew or a friend. The fact that (the majority of) sex workers I visit are strangers is coincidental, and it's not a requirement for my sexual partner to be a stranger.

You might see swingers groups on TV, but they're very rare and difficult to find. On top of that, they may decline your application to join, and it's very likely the women wouldn't want to have sex with me. But if you know how to find swingers groups easily, then by all means, please send me a PM. I would love to save money and have sex for free.

Again find another therapist and get help with the issues you have.

Four didn't do much good. Why would a fifth help?

But you won't listen because you see it as an entitlement.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

If you can't think of any rational reason as to why there's a problem with what I'm saying, then you need to reevaluate your positions.

Since you carefully pin pointed all my evaluations. No I don't think I do need to re-evaluate. I've stated plenty of rational opinions. In my posts.

This was addressed previously. Consent can be on condition of payment. For example, if you're paid to have a novel drug put into your body for a clinical trial, then you've still consented.

Comparing a drug to the use of somebody else's body isn't a equal comparison. I read that. I thought bollocks.

It doesn't have to be with strangers. I enjoy sex with strangers, but I would also enjoy sex with someone I knew or a friend. The fact that (the majority of) sex workers I visit are strangers is coincidental, and it's not a requirement for my sexual partner to be a stranger.

But technically you only have sex with strangers because, again you are entitled. You don't put in any effort to have sex with anyone other than. I know of plenty of single people who go to swingers clubs. All different looks and personalities. Which makes your statement bullshit. Again.

A fifth might well help. But you see the problem is you have already given up. You have a "what's the point attitude. I can pay for sex..."
Because you are entitled. Yes it does mean what I think it does. Trying to change that meaning to suit your needs won't work.

Again paying for the use of a woman's body isn't consent and never will be.

Again saying it's okay, is saying prostitution is okay. It's not.