What kind of men use prostitutes?

[Snugglepalace]

Dh has an outside job which involves spending time on various roads within towns and villages.
A couple of weeks ago he was working on a street in our local town. An everyday street with semi detached homes.
After a day or so Dh and his work colleagues noticed one particular house had a lot of 'visitors'. All the visitors were well dressed men arriving in nice cars. It averaged around 4 men per hour!
At lunchtime a car pulled up (the driver had pizzas) and the door was opened,there was an older woman in the hallway and several younger looking women loitering in the hallway also.

Dh and workmates are convinced it was a brothel. Over the weeks that they were working there they would glare at the men going in and said some of them looked very embarrassed once they realised they had been noticed, one even parked in a nearby supermarket and tried to get in the back way.
I know these things go on but what got me was the thought that surely, several, if not most of these men must have (oblivious?!) partners etc.

Hello IcedPurple.

"Since you keep bringing up your 'ugliness' as an excuse for using prostitutes, can I ask: Just how ugly are you? I've known some pretty unattractive men who manage to find women to have sex with. Of course, usually these women will not be very conventionally attractive either, but beggers can't be choosers I guess. Unless you're John Merrick, and unless you demand to have sex only with attractive women, then I can't imagine your physical appearance is really so frightful as to scare away all potential partners. Sounds more of an excuse to me."

Appearance wise, I am certainly very unattractive, and overweight too, although I hope to lose it. I am not being choosy (as you appeared to suggest), as I have shagged a number of people who weren't attractive either.

I understand that women don't care that much about physical appearance, but "attractive" can be a very broad term, which can encompass all of a man's traits. For example, a man may look well physically, but if he has poor mental health, doesn't like to talk much, doesn't like to socialise or go on holiday, shares his home with other people or lives with parents, then this man will be considered "unattractive" despite his appearance. Disregarding my appearance completely, I socialise only rarely and I keep to myself, which means that people as a whole (both men and women) don't appreciate my company very much. I'm fairly certain that even if I had £20,000 of cosmetic surgery and looked better physically, I would still seriously struggle with relationships. Being "attractive" is so much more than looking well physically, and for a lot of people, it's not easy.

"An 'ugly' man, however, demands women make themselves available to him for purchase."

Not at all. The sex worker chooses to put the advert on a website. Whether or not she provides the service is completely her choice. I can't force anyone to provide a service.

"I simply do not believe that is the case for 'many' men. The vast majority of men manage to find partners at least some of the time."

The vast majority, but not all. I haven't.

"But the real point is that sex is not a human right."

Consenting adults have the right to not have their sexual activity obstructed by other people. You don't have a right to change that.

I have shagged a number of people who weren't attractive either

Right. So you are not in fact so ugly that no woman will ever have sex with you

I understand that women don't care that much about physical appearance

You don't understand anything about women (now isn't that a shocker!) Women do care about physical appearance, despite men's wishful thinking, but not looking like Jason Momoa isn't a deal breaker for a man, just as not looking like Gal Gadot isn't a deal breaker for a woman. Most people partner up with others of roughly similar physical attractiveness. So 'ugly' men do find partners, just not usually with 'hot' women, and vice versa. If the only people who managed to have sex were hotties, the human race would have died out long ago.

Disregarding my appearance completely, I socialise only rarely and I keep to myself, which means that people as a whole (both men and women) don't appreciate my company very much

From what you're saying here, it seems as though you've got serious issues with self esteen and social interaction, particularly with women. That's not at all the same thing as being so 'unattractive' that nobody will shag you. I would say a psychiatrist would be more useful to you than a prostitute.

The vast majority, but not all. I haven't

But like you've said, you rarely meet any actual women - by choice. How do you expect to find a partner if you don't socialise with women?

Consenting adults have the right to not have their sexual activity obstructed by other people. You don't have a right to change that.

She isn't 'consenting' though. You purchased her body. You have repeatedly said that you feel you are too unattractive for any woman to consent to have sex with you. Does she suddenly become 'consenting' because you paid her?

Right. So you are not in fact so ugly that no woman will ever have sex with you

Incorrect, because they were women I paid for. The only women I've had sex with have all been sex workers.

You don't understand anything about women (now isn't that a shocker!) Women do care about physical appearance, despite men's wishful thinking

In your previous comment, you said that physically unattractive men can still find women to have sex with, so I agreed with you that being physically unattractive wasn't the barrier that was preventing me from having sex. Are you flip-flopping your opinions just to disagree with me?

From what you're saying here, it seems as though you've got serious issues with self esteen and social interaction, particularly with women. That's not at all the same thing as being so 'unattractive' that nobody will shag you.

How many women do you know that shag men that keep to themselves, have low self-esteem, and don't socialise well with other people?

I would say a psychiatrist would be more useful to you than a prostitute.

Sex workers are actually really good for that. You can talk to them about anything.

But like you've said, you rarely meet any actual women - by choice. How do you expect to find a partner if you don't socialise with women?

I wouldn't say it's by choice. Mental health issues are complex, people's behaviours and circumstances are complex. I don't socialise well because it's just the way I am; saying something like "it's your fault for not socialising" (in effect, telling me it's my fault for not socialising well and having mental health issues) isn't going to change the problem.

On the occasions I do socialise, it's either with (a) old friends or (b) people from work. I have known women in my old social circles for long enough to be absolutely sure that they are definitely not attracted to me. I don't want to have a relationship with work colleagues either, because that can get messy. But those issues are irrelevant, because the most glaring problem is that almost all women I know are either married, or in long term relationships.

She isn't 'consenting' though. You purchased her body.

1. Consent can be on condition of payment.
2. I haven't purchased her body. That term implies ownership, which isn't the case.

Does she suddenly become 'consenting' because you paid her?

Yes.

Aside from the fact that I think I know you, @FamousPJ I understand where you are coming from.

Sex is much more than just a mechanical act, so a wank, as suggested, is by far not equivalent. Sex workers are a better option than the alternative.

It's far less of a feminist issue here than it would be elsewhere, but I wish it was legalised fully. There is still far too much shame associated with prostitution in this country.

Aside from the fact that I think I know you, @FamousPJ I understand where you are coming from.

Yeah, they didn't really appreciate me on that site unfortunately.

Yeah, they didn't really appreciate me on that site unfortunately

I didn't suggest I know you from a website.

Oh OK. You probably don't know me then.

I’m going to get some popcorn. I can see an interesting twist coming.

Just because it is ostensibly safer in a German mega brothel, doesn't make it ok.

It makes it better, surely. Prostitution has been around for ever, and always will be. Like abortion, it isn't a choice between having it or not having it, it's a choice between illegal and dangerous and legal and far less dangerous.

How any woman, who thru feminist dogma, can side with illegal and dangerous, and claim to be on the side of women, mystifies me.

Equally mystified by women who are on the side of punters. And your equivalence is false, prostitution should not be illegal, but the purchasing of sex should be. Men who pay for sex are the issue not the women who sell it.

Men who pay for sex are the issue not the women who sell it.

Nope, the unsafe conditions in which it is bought and sold is the real issue. Because bought and sold it always has been, and always will be.

Oh OK. You probably don't know me then.
I have PMed you. We will find out :-)

Men who pay for sex are the issue not the women who sell it.
There either is an issue with prostitution or there isn't. You cannot simply demonise one side of the (mutual) arrangement.

And your equivalence is false

The term you were looking for was "false dichotomy," but what Craft said was correct; when aspects of prostitution are criminalised (including laws which criminalise clients and not sex workers), conditions always become worse for sex workers; see examples from Nordic countries, where the police invade sex worker's apartments without consent, and landlords are forced to evict sex workers if they don't want to be charged under pimping laws.
Laws which reduce demand for sex workers also necessarily create more poverty for sex workers, which forces them to take more risks and put themselves in danger.

Well it certainly won't be addressed by capitulating to the demands of men who want to buy sex, and simply trying to make the lives of women who sell sex very slightly less dangerous, for some of them anyway.

and simply trying to make the lives of women who sell sex very slightly less dangerous, for some of them anyway.

Actually, massively less dangerous for the vast majority of them. This isn't my best guess, or an opinion, but stone cold hard facts. The experience of our European neighbours is observable and real.

Well it certainly won't be addressed by capitulating to the demands of men who want to buy sex

But those demands are the same as the demands of sex workers. Why not put their voices at the centre of this?

and simply trying to make the lives of women who sell sex very slightly less dangerous,

... Isn't that the most important thing? Making their jobs safe?

How about this for a crazy idea; fully decriminalise sex work so sex workers can benefit from the safest conditions. With the taxes raised from sex work, use a substantial amount of that to fund "exit" programs for sex workers, so that anyone who doesn't want to be a sex worker will be able to find something else to do.

No. It's not a job.

I don't agree at all that there is evidence that legalizing all aspects of prostitution makes women safer, or that there is hard evidence for it.

Isn't that the most important thing? Making their jobs safe?

Apparently not. Sticking to dogma and chasing the impossible dream of no prostitution seems to be what counts.

I don't agree at all that there is evidence that legalizing all aspects of prostitution makes women safer, or that there is hard evidence for it.

The overwhelming majority of sex workers call for full decriminalisation. They do not agree with clients being put in prison; it does absolutely nothing to help them.

I don't agree at all that there is evidence that legalizing all aspects of prostitution makes women safer, or that there is hard evidence for it.

There is hard evidence for it. If you don't like the evidence because it undermines your beliefs, then there's really nowhere else to go with the discussion.

You are perfectly entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

No, I don't agree that what you propose would actually make it safer for women, or that there is any evidence that it does.

And how about making it a priority for existing tax to be spent on providing exit routes for women? No need to make it conditional on enough of them paying enough tax to fund it themselves.

And how about making it a priority for existing tax to be spent on providing exit routes for women? No need to make it conditional on enough of them paying enough tax to fund it themselves.

You're incorrectly assuming that every sex worker wants to exit. It would be a pot of money that exists for the minority of sex workers who have found themselves in a place where they don't want to be. But hey, doesn't matter where the money comes from, and arguing about that is missing the point; if you want to help sex workers, it makes more sense to financially help them out of the industry if they don't want to be there. Criminalising clients does absolutely nothing to help them.

Incorrect, because they were women I paid for. The only women I've had sex with have all been sex workers.

Then you've obviously got very severe problems with women, which have nothing to do with your physical attractiveness or lack thereof.

In your previous comment, you said that physically unattractive men can still find women to have sex with, so I agreed with you that being physically unattractive wasn't the barrier that was preventing me from having sex. Are you flip-flopping your opinions just to disagree with me?

No - I'm saying that very very few people are so ugly that they can't find a sex partner on that basis alone. That's not the same as saying that women don't appreciate physical attractiveness, just that, realistically, most people find partners who are at about the same level of attractiveness, or lack thereof, and much else, besides.

How many women do you know that shag men that keep to themselves, have low self-esteem, and don't socialise well with other people?

Like I say, if you hide yourself away feeling sorry for how ugly you are, women are hardly going to come knocking on your door, are they?

Sex workers are actually really good for that. You can talk to them about anything.

And they'll also likely tell you anything you want to hear too, being as you have purchased their orifices.

Seriously, if you think talking to a prostitute is the same as talking to a trained psychiatrist, you're never going to deal with your obvious issues.

Consent can be on condition of payment.

No it can't.

Then you've obviously got very severe problems with women, which have nothing to do with your physical attractiveness or lack thereof.

I already said that. I said that even if I had £20,000 to spend on cosmetic surgery and became good looking after that, it wouldn't make much difference.

No - I'm saying that very very few people are so ugly that they can't find a sex partner on that basis alone.

I know.

Thanks.

Like I say, if you hide yourself away feeling sorry for how ugly you are, women are hardly going to come knocking on your door, are they?

So you've agreed with me that men with poor self-esteem, psychological issues, mental-health issues, don't socialise well, or don't talk a lot etc. etc. will be unable to find sexual partners. So yes, there are indeed plenty of men who aren't in a position to have sex without paying for it.

And they'll also likely tell you anything you want to hear too, being as you have purchased their orifices.

Orifices? That's a very distorted perspective of male sexuality.

Seriously, if you think talking to a prostitute is the same as talking to a trained psychiatrist, you're never going to deal with your obvious issues.

I've seen maybe four counselors in my life. It doesn't do a huge amount.

No it can't.

So if I take part in a clinical trial which I'm paid to do, have I not consented? Would I still have allowed a novel drug to be put in my body if I had not been paid for it?

Can’t say I’ve bothered to read this gigantic thread.

I’d say they have to be quite good at moral gymnastics. From all walks of life. For me, it’s essentially glorified masturbation (or worse depending on how you look at it).

I’m not really sure if they actually respect the women involved, on the surface maybe, but subconsciously… I suppose you have two sorts; lowbrow and highbrow (for lack of a better word the ones you have to pay a relatively high sum of money and are quite ‘exclusive’). The first kind is extremely sad. I have spent the majority of my life outside the U.K., but inside Europe (mainly the Netherlands, Belgium, France and Luxembourg), quite a few places where brothels (and similar) are (somewhat) legal. If you walk through the districts it’s basically a sad affair whatever way you look at it. Especially those with windows. It’s mostly a recollection of the Balkans and some parts of Central and Eastern-Europe (oh and African women). You can’t tell me they’ve come here voluntarily, to spend their days behind a window, ‘working’ at a ferocious pace. Dreadful state of affairs.

What also annoys me is the hypocrisy. Say e.g. in the Netherlands, ask a woman what she thinks about prostitutes, you’re probably going to hear something along the lines of that’s their choice etc… Still most would probably not be amused if their (prospective) partner admitted to have visited prostitutes (before her). Or another one; why is one of the more popular football chants “your mother is a whore” –directed at the referee or someone else. If that’s the worst thing you can think of then surely, you don’t respect them. Or why is nobody proudly posting on facebook that their daughter decided to become a whore?

Doesn’t seem like a job that works wonders for your mental health either; something tells me you start detaching after a certain amount of time, even if you started doing it to enhance your lifestyle (you want to fund your …) or whatever reason.