Another "he won't marry me thread" - apologies in advance!

[mooncuppy]

Been with P for 6 years. We are now 26/29 years old. Generally happy, lots of common interests, enjoy each other's company. We don't live together.

He has always been very very adverse to discussing things like feelings and emotions, or basically anything relationship related.

If one were to observe us closely, we'd seem like a caring but rather casual couple. We spend a lot of time together and stick up for each other, but we have never had a conversation which is not directly about food, work, books, movies, museums, science, youtube videos, general gossip, current affairs, planning the day etc.

It's never bothered me much in the past, I was wrapped up in finishing my degree, focussing on early career and things. But in the past year or so, it has suddenly started to hit me that we have never discussed things like commitment to one another or the possibility of any kind of future together. I have tried to gauge his thoughts on this, but any mention of things like meeting family, moving in together, maybe getting engaged (in the future one day) gets his back right up and he becomes really defensive and dismissive, and it always escalates into an argument.

His general response to anything I bring up is generally of the ilk: "it's too too soon", "we haven't been together long enough", "we're too young", "I'm not ready", "I'm not sure", "I've never thought about it", "I will think about it (and never bring it up again)", "I don't want to think about it", "I like things the way they are, why can't you do the same" "you're too old fashioned" and "you're too demanding".

He can be quite convincing in making out that I'm the one living in some kind of fairytale world full of patriarchy, wanting a happy ever after with prince charming.

I've enjoyed his company for the past few years, but is it really that unusual to expect more? Is normal for him to want to just carry on the way we are forever, never offering any kind of commitment? Or have I got it all wrong, and this is what a committed relationship is meant to look like?

He always INSISTS till blue in the face that I WAS invited at the time, was busy and must have forgotten

NEVER MARRY ANYONE WHO GASLIGHTS YOU!

Leave. Definitely.

He's said he needs at least another 3 years to think about it. And then brings up the fact that it hasn't been 3 years every time I raise it again.

This is bonkers, isn't it.

YES!!! At least you can see it. "At least another 3 years" means you will (assuming he doesn't run off and marry Miss Right when he meets her before then) you will have been together 9 years!!

Ask yourself this - how many couples do you know who were together nearly a decade BEFORE they decided to get married? Answer: very few.

What normally happens is the commitmentphobic party (usually the man in a hetero couple but not always!) drags his feet so much that eventually the tearful woman leaves him. And the commitmentphobic man suddenly finds a woman who really does it for him and has no trouble getting married at full speed.

Look - even if you are super young (which you aren't), after 6 years you know whether this is what you want. Another 3 years isn't going to make a difference. Why would it?

For example, people often say you shouldn't marry someone without having seen them through 4 seasons. It's fair enough to say you need to know someone long enough and know them well enough to know how they are when they are ill, cold, tired, depressed, on holiday, happy, and so on. But 6 years is more than enough.

What more information is he going to get in 3 years that he doesn't have now? I wouldn't engage with this debate with him. You need to learn wannabe's line well, we've been together for six years, if you still need to think about it then it's clear this isn't what you want." Repeat it to yourself over and over until it becomes automatic. Put yourself on auto pilot with him and repeat it.

You need to get out of this.

Has he ever even told you he loves you?

Not once.

When I brought that up he said - "yeah I totally did. Just last week. Don't you remember. When you were in the shower. With headphones on."*

"yeah I totally did. Just last week. Don't you remember. When you were in the shower. With headphones on."*

More gaslighting by the sound of it.

Ultimately you don't want to be in a relationship where you've had to force things do you? You want the person you love to want to commit to you freely. You deserve much better than what you currently are settling for and I hope you find it.

If you genuinely don't think he'll contact you again if you don't call him, then just don't. If he can't be bothered with you, I'm not sure I'd make the effort for the big emotional ending.

Tell your friends that it's ended, come to its natural ending as you want different things. Start a new single life. See if he notices in the next month or so...

You'll have to force him to talk to you. You want something different than him st the moment and you need to tell him and find out what he wants.

I had to give my dh an ultimatum to ask me to marry him within 6 months or I was leaving. He did do. He loved me, he was just scared of the responsibility of marriage and providing for kids. Been married 10 years and 3 kids now.

You need to know if he definitely doesn't want marriage and kids and you do. So you can go and find someone who wants the same things.

Why did you stay with him when he didn't verbally express love?!

And gaslights you.

You mention a previous abusive relationship. Your current bf might not be abusive but sounds unpleasant and not a good bf. Yet you wanted commitment from him. Perhaps something is up with your "bar" for relationships?

I thought my bar had gone up massively after the last wanker. But I only discovered this new side of him in the past year, when I started wanting to talk about the future.

It was hunky dory before that (with a few suspicious hints. I can now see...)

N.b he was 31 when I gave him ultimatum.
All our friends got married about same age.

You need to know if he definitely doesn't want marriage and kids and you do. So you can go and find someone who wants the same things

Have you RTFT? Because I really don't think this is the same situation. OP's "boyfriend" has been 100% clear that he doesn't want any escalation of the relationship, and is also a gaslighting abusive fuckwit that OP should under no circumstances marry even if he goes down on his knees and begs.

mooncuppy,

re your comment:-

"I was only 20 when I met him and had just come out of a uni relationship that was all kinds of abusive".

That explains how this individual got his claws into you. You were emotionally vulnerable and he sensed that a mile off. He targeted you and deliberately so. Yes, targeted.

Unfortunately no-one seemingly recommended that you do the Freedom Programme run by Womens Aid at that time.

You need to do that now. You were targeted by this individual who has exploited you to his own ends; he is not all that dissimilar to your ex. Perhaps a different type of abuser to what you experienced but still an abuser all the same. Your relationship bar is still too low and I would urge you to do the Freedom Programme. This will also help you raise your still too low relationship bar and boundaries in relationships in future.

Why did you stay with him when he didn't verbally express love?!

Well the abusive ex told me he loved me all the time, and he ended up being arrested for assaulting me on a tube platform.

The phrase didn't really hold much meaning for me by that point. So I didn't worry that he wasn't saying it.

He hasn't told you he loves you? After 6 years? And then lies about it?

Argh. You are so, so young - you will find someone else who will want the things you want, there really are quite a few lovely, kind, considerate men out there who will treat you the way you deserve to be treated.

It sounds like the same situation, word for word. I'm glad that things worked out so well for you.

It really did. And I'm sure if you move on you will find someone who deserves you, who is thrilled to be with you and doesn't gaslight you.

Honestly though. You were in the shower with headphones on? He's not even GOOD at gaslighting is he? :/

Good luck OP.

I'm really surprised that the word gas lighting has come up so much in this thread.

I've certainly suspected he was gas lighting me on more than one occasion, although he found it laughable.

I'm going to be blunt here but hopefully it'll make you realise you are wasting your time. I was in a relationship for 15 years from the age of 22, I never wanted to get married. I've been in my current relationship 2 years and we're getting married this year. Turns out all those years I did actually want to get married, just not to him.

Gaslighting is another form of psychological abuse often employed by narcissists.

The intention is to, in a systematic way, target the victim’s mental equilibrium, self confidence, and self esteem so that they are no longer able to function in an independent way. Gaslighting involves the abuser to frequently and systematically withhold factual information from the victim, and replacing it with false information. Because of its subtly, this cunning Machiavellian behaviour is a deeply insidious set of manipulations that is difficult for anybody to work out, and with time it finally undermines the mental stability of the victim. That is why it is such a dangerous form of abuse. The emotional damage of gaslighting is huge on the narcissistic victim. When they are exposed to it for long enough, they begin to lose their sense of their own self. Unable to trust their own judgments, they start to question the reality of everything in their life. They begin to find themselves second-guessing themselves, and this makes them become very insecure around their decision making, even around the smallest of choices. The victim becomes depressed and withdrawn, they become totally dependent on the abuser for their sense of reality. In effect the gaslighting turns the victim’s reality on its head.

Please enrol on the Freedom Programme moon and love your own self for a change.

He thinks he can do better. I'm pretty sure that you can.

I really hope that you do end this now, and make it clear to him that it is not because you desperately want to get married, but because you want to be part of a committed relationship that includes your partners family and be with somebody who is worth your time and energy.

A close friend was with her boyfriend for over 12 years from around 17-29. He wouldn't marry her as his parents were divorced and it "might not work out". She bought herself a house, he wouldn't move in as his mum didn't approve. She stayed over at his house, in the spare room. One night out on her 28th birthday, she broke down because yet another birthday had passed and he hadn't proposed. She hoped for it every Christmas, Valentines, Birthday etc. We sat her down and told her that he was never going to and that it was time she got out.

In the end she only got away from him by meeting somebody else. He had broken her confidence and self esteem, he had made her feel worthless and that nobody else would ever want her. But they did. She met somebody else in the dying days of her relationship with her bf (she had finally told him it was over but he was swearing he would change, marry her etc, but give him time and she found it hard to get away from him). She moved in with her new bloke within a few months and they subsequently got engaged and married.

Sadly she never had children because she wasted so many years with Mr Wrong that it was too late by the time she met Mr Right. But she has been far happier in her 30's than her 20's.

and yes, within 12-18 months of the breakup, the boyfriend met somebody else, got her pregnant and moved in with her . So all total bullshit.

On Gaslighting and it's effects - OP read this:

narcissisticbehavior.net/the-effects-of-gaslighting-in-narcissistic-victim-syndrome/

Second-guessing yourself because your confidence is destroyed (note you are doing this here - asking posters here "this is bonkers isn't it?" because you aren't quite sure)

• Asking “Am I too sensitive?”

• Apologizing

• Loss of joy and happiness in life

• Withholding information from others (hiding true facts from friends and family due to shame)

• Knowing something is terribly wrong, but can’t figure out what

• Trouble making simple decisions

• You have the sense that you used to be a very different person – more confident, more fun-loving, and more relaxed:

• You feel hopeless and joyless and extremely anxious.

When I brought that up he said - "yeah I totally did. Just last week. Don't you remember. When you were in the shower. With headphones on"

Oh, how convenient that that was the only time...

Out out out. Pleez OP, we know the score and we're not blinded by love. Well, unrequited love. Like you.

You can do so much better - most men are kind, considerate and honest, you know.

My friend had this for 8 years. She bust a gut to please the gentleman concerned, too. The light dawned after she swept oh-so DP off to Paris for bday lunch on top of his favourite museum and he came back, dumped his bag on her aged sleeping cat on the sofa and said grudgingly 'I suppose it was ok'.

DP didn't have anywhere to live and she felt she couldn't boot him out before starting again. He said he didn't have any money (surprise, surprise). At that stage her respect for him had left the building and she was starting to wonder whether his suitcases should too. He panicked and popped the question. Too late.

The best bit was that all DP's commitment-phobe pub mates were horrified and called her a bitch for not being 'honest with him' or 'committed to the long haul'. :) :)