Can anyone help me work out what happened last night with DH - TW rape

[WoIsMe]

I had too much to drink last night and I'm not sure exactly what happened, I was hoping someone could give me some perspective as I'm on the verge of packing a bag for DH and telling him not to come home tonight.

We were in bed and I asked DH to put some emollient cream on my back because I have eczema there but I can't reach it easily. He couldn't find the cream so he grabbed some Nivea For Men moisturiser. I immediately asked him to stop as it has perfume in but despite my protests he put it all over my back (I was lying on my tummy and he was astride me so I couldn't move out of the way). It burned my eczema so he went to get a Lush massage bar to use instead - I assume for the cocoa butter. I was upset that he hadn't stopped when I asked him because he thought he knew what he was doing so he overruled my objection.

We started to get intimate and he kept trying to give me oral sex. I said I didn't want to but he kept pulling my legs down the bed and trying to get them apart. I said I didn't want to because it was too intimate and I didn't feel comfortable with that after he didn't listen to me about the moisturiser. It was hurting my ankles when he kept pulling my legs down so I suggested we have sex doggy style instead since that is his favourite position.

So we started doing that but he pulled my legs down again which meant that the position wasn't right and he slipped out. He spent a bit of time dry-humping me but then must have realised he had slipped out. He started trying to turn me over and pull my legs apart again even though I was saying I didn't want him to go down on me. I was really worried that he was going to force himself on me and this is the part where I get confused. I bolted to the kitchen to get a knife to defend myself with. I can't believe I was so worried about my safety that I was looking for a weapon. On the way I passed the bathroom door so I locked myself in there instead of going to the kitchen.

DH knocked on the door and was calm. He had put his pyjamas on and asked me to put my pyjamas on so we could talk about it. He said he thought I wanted to have oral sex and he didn't understand what was going on. I said I didn't want to and we both went to sleep. We have both got up and gone to work this morning with nothing more said. I have been with DH for 20 years and I don't understand why my reaction was so strong. If I said to him that I was running to the kitchen to get a knife so he couldn't rape me he would be incredibly offended.

If you've got this far then thanks for reading. I don't quite understand what happened last night or what the big picture is.

"We started to get intimate and he kept trying to give me oral sex. I said I didn't want to but he kept pulling my legs down the bed and trying to get them apart. "

This was before the doggy style. This was an assault.

". I immediately asked him to stop as it has perfume in but despite my protests he put it all over my back (I was lying on my tummy and he was astride me so I couldn't move out of the way). "

This was also an assault, before the doggy style.

And you say first time in a long marriage; sadly, I suspect that's not the case, and that if op posts more about her history, this won't be a one off, just the incident that has triggered the intense reaction

That's a big assumption to make, but like I said some people always think they know best. If OP also believes he INTENDED to try and sexually assault her then she should make sure she is now in a safe place. It's just not how I read the initial post.

Good luck Op, I hope things work out ok for you.

Clearly you also think you know best

Many sad years of experience of MN are that posts like this are, far more often than not, about the tip of the iceberg. And I would rather err on the side of getting a woman out of an abusive situation.

I don't understand twogunslingers, do you reckon he did it accidentally?

As far as I can gather, being drunk is no excuse for sexual assault:

"The offences in the Sexual Offences Act 2003 are crimes of basic intent - R v Lee Heard (CA) (2006)"

drunkenness is no defence.

www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/soa_2003_and_soa_1956/#intent
www.jsbni.com/resources/training-events/Documents/Recent%20Developments%20in%20Criminal%20Law/Developments%20Criminal%20Law%20May08.pdf

TwoGunslingers: "..unless we are saying a man married to a woman for 20 years suddenly decides he wants to rape her.."

Well, OP has already said it wasn't rape, but sexual assault. But yes, that can happen. Being married for 20 years doesn't make someone immune. However, if someone does this after 20 years of marriage it's highly unlikely that nothing whatsoever similar has happened before. OP has already mentioned the coercive control type bath running behaviour and other behaviour where his wishes take precedence and family is expected to be happy about it.

That doesn't mean someone will automatically assault their spouse, but it certainly moves them into a territory where it wouldn't be entirely unexpected either.

I have spoken to DH about it and he is pretty shocked with himself. He doesn't have the clearest memory of last night. I described what had happened and stated that "you sexually assaulted me". He asked what he should do next and I have asked him to cut down on the amount of alcohol he drinks. He is a pretty heavy drinker, at least twice the recommended 14 units per week. Unfortunately we couldn't have a long discussion since the DCs were needing attention but at least it's been started. I hope to be able to continue the discussion about the controlling behaviour. I don't know whether it's worth going to Relate for some couples counselling or whether it's something we can work on just between the two of us. I do feel better for having initiated the conversation though. He was calm and receptive and immediately started seeking solutions rather than trying to apportion or deflect blame.

Glad he was receptive and that you used the words.

Did he apologise? Was he devastated with himself?

Definitely continue the conversation if you feel safe to do so. Have a long think about other examples so he realises that the bath thing, which I imagine he did sober, is part of the same behaviour that regards your opinion about what you want as less important than his opinion about what you should have.

I think the reason why you reacted the way you did is because he constantly tried to force things on you and the kids that you don't want. But because it's 'nice' stuff , you may feel ungrateful declining. As you were drunk the other day, your real feelings of this controlling behaviour came out.

As someone asked - when you initiated the doggy style sex was it to appease him or because you wanted to?

What solutions did he propose?

Don't drink so much.

We started to get intimate and he kept trying to give me oral sex. I said I didn't want to but he kept pulling my legs down the bed and trying to get them apart. I said I didn't want to because it was too intimate and I didn't feel comfortable with that after he didn't listen to me about the moisturiser. It was hurting my ankles when he kept pulling my legs down

I can't believe how many posters have minimised you. What you described was clearly sexual assault. You said no, and he carried on, hurting you in the process.

I don't blame you for running away - it's a rational response to being assaulted. Please don't feel like you're the one who was out of line here.

^ minimised what happened to you

Terraviva OP... Drunk logic is a law unto itself. I agree your DH was insensitive and over-stepped the mark. Running to get a knife is bonkers alcohol logic and over-reaction. I'd say to chalk it up to a really bad drunken night all round.

+1

My initial response is that you both were very drunk, lines got crossed and you really need to sit down when you are sober, calm and talk it through. Even thinking about grabbing a knife is a very extreme reaction, you must have been very panicked to have done so, and so you shouldn't just brush this under the carpet. Perhaps you need to both be careful with your drinking over Christmas, when it's all too easy to have one too many. I also think you need to tell him what your reaction was, so he understands why you want to talk about it. What a horrid situation for you.

"Running to get a knife is bonkers alcohol logic and over-reaction. "

Nope. Fight or flight.

He. Actually. Hurt. Her.

She thought, fleetingly, as a weaker person who had already been pinned down by him, about improving her chances of self defence, before her instincts took the safer option of flight to a lockable room.

If he had punched her in the kitchen and her hand closed on the drawer where the knives were kept before instead she fled out of the back door, would that still be "bonkers alcohol logic"?

I also think you need to tell him what your reaction was

I strongly disagree.

He has the potential to do the OP harm and knowing that she could think of going for a knife could make it more dangerous for her in future.

Yy Lweji

He should be horrified at himself that his behaviour drove her to lock herself in safety.

From the update, he doesn't sound it.

A sexual assault like all crimes requires intent. Unless we are saying a man married to a woman for 20 years suddenly decides he wants to rape her then I'm just saying there could be alternative reasons what happened, one of which is clearly that they were both drunk.

There are plenty of men who are able to rationalise sexually abusing or raping women as 'getting their end away' and something they are entitled to do. And plenty of women who put up with this behaviour due to being socialised to believe that sex is something proffered or permitted or performed by women for men's enjoyment. Huge numbers of these people have such a warped view of men's entitlement to sex that the matter of true consent never really enters the picture, and so framing rape as needing a man to 'intend to rape', as if that's what he'll be telling himself it is, can be problematic.

OP, you said that after he caused burning with the cream, you started to become intimate. My advice would be 1.try not to drink so much. 2. Lay downthe law very strongly at that "started to get intimate" stage..You gave him mixed messages in my opinion. He behaved badly, tell him. Don't start to get intimate, then say no, then reluctantly agree to doggie, etc. Unless you're afraid of him you should be able to say to dh "you're drunk, you've ignored what i said and burned my back. So for tonight f...off !! How did it get to intimate and doggie? If you are afraid, then of course that's a different matter. Seek professional help.

Haystack

You are wrong. There was no mixed messages. There was no consent to the painful cream or the attempted oral sex. OP said no and he continued.

These two acts were before any doggy style.

Stop victim blaming.

Even, he burned her back with the cream. Should not have gone any further than that. At that point op should have said " bugger off to the spare room/ lounge. You've just totally ignored me, forced the wrong cream on me, burnt my back and you're drunk. We'll discuss tomorrow". But op and dh started to get intimate, then no, then reluctantly doggie style, etc. If my dh ignored my request and burnt my back, he'd be out of the bed and on the settee. We haven't got their strength but we have our voices and reactions. But of course, if op is afraid, then that's a whole different matter. I'm not blaming the victim, what I'm saying is that after that first assault it should have ended there and discussed the following day, with clear heads.