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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Support thread for those of us having to 'co-parent' with a narc or very difficult exh thread 3

993 replies

Lilacpink40 · 09/11/2016 18:57

Thred 3! Grin

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Lilacpink40 · 03/12/2016 22:45

A guest post on abuse has some really interesting observations. This stood out for me and I think may well be true for many..."I realised that the guilt I was carrying wasn't mine to bear. This was HIS fault. All of it, every single little bit. The tears I cried were created by him, his actions and his desire to completely control me until there was no ME left".

If I could make one definite change in me post-separation it would be to get rid of the guilt he put in me. I think it's the thing that is still making me vulnerable and doubt any happiness when it comes along. When I feel down it jumps up at me as though I deserve to be down, that I'm a bad person. This time last year was so horrible. Part of me wants to stop dating, not put decorations up and hide in a box.

He's now been with GF for 18 mths and they're excited to be looking at houses together. I struggle to progress with new relationships as I have DCs lots and left with baggage of being made to feel crap.

Sorry, I'm having good evening.

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Lilacpink40 · 03/12/2016 22:46

Meant not having good evening.

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Lilacpink40 · 03/12/2016 22:49

Here is the link. The stories after are harrowing I want to put these men in a box and shove their crap back in with them.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/2794713-Guest-post-When-you-have-an-abusive-partner-Christmas-is-a-nightmare

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Namechanger2015 · 03/12/2016 22:53

Hello all, it sounds like everybody is having a busy time of it st the moment!

Donners that sounds great that your ex is moving abroad, it does sound daunting but I bet it will bring about a whole host of emotional security for you and your children in other ways by not having a narc co-parent around.

I saw my solicitor and barrister this week as we are due to go to court in January. I mentioned about ex taking the children and not returning them for school - sol and barrister both said courts take a very very dim view on that.
They said it would be v reasonable for me to offer one day per weekend but no overnight stays in light of what has happened (him refusing to return them or drop them to school resulting in them missing a day of school). They urged me to get a court order for formalised access patterns but I really don't want to as I think it will give him more access than he currently has and he will continue to be a horrible parent to them.

Today my 4 year old was holding / stroking / pinching my ear lobe as we were having a cuddle. I don't like that and it's an unusual thing for her to do. She said when she is with daddy she sucked his ear - wtf?!! I told her not to but she said it's funny and daddy likes it. I find that really quite creepy??

I was hoping ex would disappear for a few weeks as he usually sees them approx once a month, but very very unusually he asked to see them in two weeks time. Since he refused to drop them to me last Sunday I am not going to let him have them for the weekend.

But this whole episode has blown my confidence apart. We had a lovely birthday dinner with my family today and I just felt sad and withdrawn throughout. It feels like he is calling the shots as he refused to bring them home but he can still demand to see them and then do the same again. Feels like a no-win situation for me.

greencarbluecar · 04/12/2016 00:42

Thanks all. I'm trying not to feel too heartbroken. For the family we never had, well as that guest post says, I didn't cause that. We'll make our own family without him, sure for me I'd like to have someone to share things with, to hug me, but although I miss that even with him sometimes, he never did it without a catch and as for the last person I tried that with...it's going to be difficult being located closer and not being physically or emotionally with him but that's in part because I'm still grieving. It is like salt in a wound but I will find a positive, see it as a way of being closer to and remembering the DC I should have been carrying right now.
Even though the constant reminders of that and how I've been treated, especially after WN, hurt.

lilac I really get what you're saying, both these men have let me down and I blame myself and think maybe I deserve it, can't shake that feeling that maybe what WN said is true. Maybe I'm just not worth being treated well. Also not progressing with new relationships due to circs. It's crap. Sorry you're having a bad evening Flowers

dusters WN will hate the move for many reasons. Because it's out of his control, because it's me trying to repair some of the huge damage he did to my prospects, because it will mean that his usual tactic of dictating at very short notice simply won't work any longer, and yes because he'll have to make more effort. The best part is it's highly likely he'll claim I did it on purpose to get at him (because of course he is still centre of my universe, right?) yet in reality I've agonised and nearly pulled out through fear of his reaction and subsequent impact on DC.

HJM turning up unannounced does sound a bit red flag. Maybe we have WN induced paranoia but I'd find that a bit difficult. Having said that, your say yes approach is really positive and you're going into it with a sensible attitude, so it's better to try and never know. Sorry about your friend, for her being trapped and you having to watch. I would find that very hard too, god I worry about WN's new victim and I've never met her! It must be so difficult when it's a friend.

name that no win feeling...it all seems their way. But, the court won't like what he did. That's a sliver of hope, they can call him out for what he is, he's showing his true colours, you gave him enough rope and it does sound like he's doing the rest! It's completely understandable that you're affected by what he did, it was awful. Be kind to yourself.

nicenewdusters · 04/12/2016 02:56

Thanks for the link to that post Lilac. Harrowing reading, just in awe at what people have survived and escaped from. I feel like I'm seeing it around so much now. Do you find this? Perhaps because I'm more tuned in to it so people talk about it, or maybe I'm asking certain questions when I get the vibe from people that all is not well.

The above link included posters who witnessed/suffered dv as children. Could I ask you all for your advice on something? I mentioned my friend earlier who appears to be staying with her abusive partner. Earlier this year I was looking after her 8 year old ds. I was making him a drink and he said "Dusters, I don't really like my dad". At this point I knew his dad was a lazy arse, but not about the abuse. He then said that his dad had chased them around the house with a knife, because they were being naughty and he was cross. I was totally thrown, and asked him to describe what had happened. He said his dad was cooking, they were messing about, and he got cross and chased them with the knife in his hand. I asked him if he had felt scared, he said a bit. I then said d'you think daddy was joking. He was unsure. He wasn't tearful or distressed. I said have you told mummy, he said no. I ran it past a couple of people I could trust. Once said maybe phone NSPCC helpline for advice, the other said about kids having vivid imaginations and maybe it was just that.

In light of what I now know, and I have seen him physically recoil from his dad, I don't know what to do. Should I tell my friend? She's already mentioned that her solicitor had warned her that some of the things her dc have seen (him being drunk, sick, urinating, arguing etc) could call into question her ability to safeguard her dc. This may make her turn away from me completely. But I feel I've let her ds down. He trusted me to tell me but I've done nothing. If I'd felt he was in immediate danger I would have told her straight away. I think I should have told her then.

Just wanted to say about your feelings of guilt Lilac and Greencar. It's so unfair that you feel that way. I'm sure you know intellectually that you aren't guilty of anything, even if you don't feel that way. Trying to love somebody and create a happy family with them can never be something to feel guilty about. Even the putting up, ignoring red flags etc shouldn't be about guilt. We were all just trying our best but the cards were stacked against us.

Greencar please don't feel that you're not worth being treated well. If somebody treats you badly the fault lies with them. Most normal, healthy adults don't want to cause emotional pain to others. I tend to think now that I'm ok at being in a relationship, I just choose the wrong person to be in a relationship with! I bet you're the same - committed, faithful, positive etc. But like me you made a choice that didn't work out. Doesn't make you unworthy, in fact quite the opposite, they weren't worthy of your love and attention.

Name I think you're totally justified to not allow a whole weekend with your dc. So you're the one in control, not him. You're going to tell him how it's going to be, and why. Play these men at their own game. My ex thinks he's got one over on me at the moment in a certain matter. What he doesn't know is that I'm out manoeuvering him behind the scenes. He'll find out in a few weeks and there's not a thing he can do about it. I shall sit back and gloat, like I know he's doing now Wink

Lilacpink40 · 04/12/2016 09:34

Dusters and green thank you you have summarised a lot of my feelings about situations and great advice for others too.

The guilt for me is very much that I was led to believe that if I'd been a different, better person then we wouldn't have had the problems that we did.My DF has mental health problems and the insinuation was that I did, therefore was being 'corrected'. Punishment wasn't abuse it was what I was due by making him angry by letting him down. Hardest parts was when he wanted me to show that I would choose him in some way over DCs and when he'd scream loudly in their faces when they hadn't done much wrong - it was to make me make them easier in front of him. My counsellor helped me to know the truth, but there are moments (like last night) where I just feel I'm very wrong. I've woken up level-headed and having good morning with DCs. My WN only parents with GF and GP around now so he has option to walk away regularly and sees them for shirt bursts. So can be disney dad and I'd rather thry knew him that way.

The incident with a knife should, I think, be reported. The DC shared the information as it was on his mind, i.e. doesn't sound like a game. NSPCC could have advice on what to do. It's a horrible situation to be in, but not of your making. Your friend will likely need you in the future when she's ready to leave him.

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2012PP · 04/12/2016 10:19

Oh god - i need a bit of hand holding.
Ds has something today that X is coming to then taking Ds to a Xmas party. We will be in a public place it but I'm dreading it.
I've not replied to the email yet either & don't know what today apart from I'm not surprised and I hope you continue to pay child maintenance !and good riddance 😀 . I hope X doesn't try to discuss it here - that would surprise me either.
Can't believe what a gibbering wreck I am having to Deal with X.
It goes to show that we really will be better off without X anywhere near us

Namechanger2015 · 04/12/2016 10:20

I am so sorry for what you have been through Lilac, your post sounds full of sadness. It is very difficult not to blame yourself, I agree.

I feel the same, like I have totally messed up parenting because of my inability to choose a decent partner and to make the marriage work. My poor children will suffer for my shortfalls.

Dusters thank you for the advice re out manoeuvring my ex, I am terrified of him winning more access and rights in court than he currently makes use of, I think he would start to deny me school choices, block us going on holidays etc if we had a formal child access arrangement.

I really don't know how to put manoeuvre him. After two years of fighting we finally go to court for our final finance hearings early next year, this should enable us to get a house to live in and I really hope his parenting games will fizzle out after that. I don't have the strength or the finances for further court battles regarding the girls. He just doesn't love or care for them and I want to minimise the effects of his perpetuating emotional abuse on them.

Regarding the knife incident I would most definitely let your friend know. See if her son might open up to a school teacher or doctor, someone who can validate this if she needs it in writing etc. That poor poor boy.

Namechanger2015 · 04/12/2016 10:23

2012 can you take someone with you when you take DS to his thing? Will there be other parents there who you could possibly latch on to to stop him discussing it in person?

I hope you are ok!

nicenewdusters · 04/12/2016 12:28

The more you say about your ex the easier it is to understand why you feel as you do Lilac. My emotionally abusive ex was the one before twat. We didn't have dc, but by the time I left I'd resigned my job, hardly drove, could barely answer the phone, was having panic attacks, didn't see my friends etc. He made me think it was all me. I know 100% it was all him - his lies, his insecurities, his failings, his fear.

You know in your head it was 100% your ex. With time you will feel that too. It takes time because these creeps are so good at what they do. Reeling us in, then it starts, and before you know it you're stuck. Eventually we leave, but you can't quickly undo years of someone trying to rewire you to fulfill their own needs.

I'm glad your dc are only having the Disney Dad side of him. If that's the best he can do then that's what they should get - the best.

Just to clarify Name my behind the scenes stuff isn't about anything important like access to the dc. It's a practical matter where he's just trying to assert his control, so easier to deal with. I can see your dilemma with your dds. At the moment he's not seeing them much, so his influence is less. But of course you can't ignore the missing school incident. If you raise it and question him the controlling part of him will just want to fight back. I'm guessing he's the type who'd fight for more access but then not have it anyway - too much like hard work.

2012 good luck for today. I have nothing to do with twat. I was at an event this morning where he dropped dd off. Outside, a few people. I completely ignored his existence ! When he came to collect her he parked behind where I was standing chatting with some other mums. Ignored him again. My ds jumped out for a cuddle, then they both drove off. I would normally have chosen to be gone when he was around, but I wanted to stay so did. I just wear my f**k him head when he's around. He would never try to speak to me which makes things a lot easier. Can you just ignore ex? If he starts a conversation just put your hand up and say no, not discussing anything with you and walk away. I don't apply any of my usual manners or behaviour to ex - he doesn't deserve them.

Thanks for advice re my friend's son. I'm going to ask her to pop down this week - without her dc - and tell her what he told me. I think she'll minimise it, but maybe it'll make her start to believe that she can leave him for the dc's sake, even if not for her own. It may cloud our friendship, but I can accept that.

Natsku · 04/12/2016 12:39

Glad you're going to tell your friend about the knife instance dusters I'd also encourage him to talk to his teacher or someone else he can trust - sounds like he really wants to disclose to someone outside the family.

2012PP · 04/12/2016 14:29

Oooooh thanks for hand holding.
I kept my head up high and smiled lots for ds. Practically ignored X just a oh hi and ds needs to eat and that was it. X tried to engage in conversation about email & I just turned away. I'm very happy with myself .
Thanks everyone Flowers

nicenewdusters · 04/12/2016 15:12

I think you're right Nats about him wanting to disclose to somebody else. I don't know if it's ethical but I'm wondering if I should speak to the headteacher. They wouldn't necessarily have to discuss the issue with him (or would they?) but they could have a general chat. They know there are problems at home. I'll see how my friend reacts first.

Well done 2012. It's bloody hard isn't it, because you're fighting your natural instincts? But it's an unnatural situation so special forces/under cover tactics must be employed !! That's a little bit of your armour added to for the future.

Lilacpink40 · 04/12/2016 18:46

Dusters it's interesting that you pick up on fear with WN. Mine is scared of new situations, changes, being alone, travel, talking in public (if doesnt know people), and health matters. He puts up a salesman front, but with me expected me to sort out anything he didn't like. New GF gets the 'privilege' now.

I think I know why I'm getting stressed now. It's because it's first Christmas since break, will lose DCs for some of time, and I could really like the man I'm seeing so feel vulnerable. He's been honest about things that have caused him stress and have gone very wrong, but I haven't said much at all. I don't want to say it and have him agree I'm wrong. It gets worse as I'm as NC with my dad as I can be and know he'll pop by with cards for Christmas at some point. Can I please skip Christmas?

Re. Your friend's son. Does the school have an independent family support advisor?
Sometimes they're easier to see and mine was helpful at arranging counselling for my DCs. If not, they may have a teacher who helps with the role and will be tactful. Hopefully your friend will listen and think about the experience her DCs are having.

2012 I love that you turned away from him and kept control Grin

Name at the moment it sounds like your WN has 1 day and night a fortnight, but may want a day and night every weekend?
Given he didn't give them back, could you ask court for a day (no night) every fortnight?
Worth trying for, and get school involved - school report of issues?

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nicenewdusters · 04/12/2016 19:30

Lilac there is someone at the school, she has a title but I forget what it is. I hadn't thought about approaching her, she would be less of a nuclear option (so to speak). I wouldn't even have to name names, could just talk about it theoretically. Will look in to that tomorrow.

As for the fear. Twat only has some narc traits. But like your ex he also likes to stay in his comfort zone, doesn't like change or new situations, and hates public speaking. How interesting Shock . I think both my ex's were/are very fearful people. I suspect this makes you very vulnerable, over sensitive, quick to lash out and try and protect yourself.

Like you I too would like to skip Christmas this year. My dc will be with twat, and therefore at some point with the twat clan. But they're excited, it's different, so I'm jollying along with them (but sad inside).

For reasons partly connected with twat and his clan, my xmas day will be spent just with my parents. We're eating out, to avoid the tumbleweeds blowing through the virtually empty house on xmas day. But it will be really weird. I think I'm going to have Bailey's inserted intravenously from about 9 am, start eating Quality Street at breakfast and hope to be slightly unconscious under the xmas tree by about 8pm Grin

Lilacpink40 · 04/12/2016 20:24

Dusters getting general advice could be a good start and you can say things with confidentiality. Sorry to hear that he has them through the day. Mine will start with me then go. After popping in to see grandparents at 4ish that day I will be on Baileys too.

I like some of my WN family and not seeing the cousins together is going to really hurt. I'm glad not to have the weird conversations with exMIL though. Like the ones where she said, in front of DCs and ex, she dreamt I was pregnant with multiple babies when she knew I can't have anymore and we were in tough patch Hmm

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greencarbluecar · 04/12/2016 21:19

lilac what a vile thing for exMIL to say. So glad you don't have to put up with that any more. (By the way, WN also tried/tries to make me believe that I have MH issues that make me crazy/incompetent/an awful person, and he never 'parents' without someone around to do the hard work either. So original aren't they).

dusters I agree with you and everyone else that you need to say something, and the person at school seems like a good start. I know it will be hard to do and may alter your friendship, but from what you've described it sounds like something you can't just leave.

2012 I am so proud of you for today, well done. I know that heart pounding, stomach churning feeling and I've missed out on events because I can't face being in that situation.

Thank you for all the kind words. The injustice around WN will always bite I think, as it affects DC too e.g. I think he's had seven or eight holidays so far this year now. We haven't had any for years, and he went on them without us when we were together (and, it turns out, lied about paying for them, but it's not like he directed any money our way anyway, hence the financial damage as he also made it difficult for me to work much). But I will hold onto the thought that people who treat me badly are at fault, not me. It'd just be nice to attract people who behave well!

Hopefully starting Freedom soon, will report back. Feel free to remind me if I forget!

nicenewdusters · 04/12/2016 22:09

Bloody hell Lilac your ex MIL is spectacularly awful. Does she arrive on a broomstick ?!! No doubt WN said nothing in response to her appalling comment ?

Will be interested to hear about the Freedom Programme Greencar .

greencarbluecar · 05/12/2016 06:30

lilac did he say nothing, or go one further and deny she'd said it/defend her? I had truly hurtful and at times damaging things said to me regarding babies and other sensitive topics, and those were the responses I got from WN which is why I ask. I really hope it wasn't that bad for you but if it was, this really is a prime example of there being something wrong with them, not you.

Lilacpink40 · 05/12/2016 08:21

WN sat there and said nothing. No one allowed to stand in his dragons DMs way.DCs sat looking confused at me, me trying to change subject. Biggest smile on her face beating me down. So glad I don't have that anymore.

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nicenewdusters · 05/12/2016 09:59

I can really sympathise with you both, greencar and lilac. Twat sitting there whilst his father tried to put me right etc. I can see his stupid face now. I remember looking across the table and thinking did we really have kids together, are you actually going to throw this all away?

I'm proud to say I stood up to his father, told him some home truths, exposed him as a liar and an idiot. I knew then I'd never see him again, my only regret is that I didn't really go to town on him. But then I'm not a spiteful narcissist who destroys his children's lives, so I didn't lower myself to his level. Still like to punch his lights out though Grin

Natsku · 05/12/2016 11:29

Wow your ex-MIL was a first class bitch lilac!

Ohb0llocks · 05/12/2016 18:07

Just checking in. Been a mega busy weekend but quiet on the WN front. Not heard from him for almost 2 weeks now.

Flowers to all still dealing with idiots.

Lilacpink40 · 05/12/2016 18:46

Dusters and Nat I have quietly changed a few things for her and my DCs that she's now probably aware was down to my feedback. I've never had it fully out with her. The way my DD talks (gets fed up with the nastiness, lies and manipulation) think it will the next generation that do that for me. I say very little about it directly to DCs, just act as a sounding board for them. I already use school system to help me work, but sadly do need her help once or twice a week. I don't need to see her, but DCs say it's better than going to morning and evening clubs and I can't change hours. Eventually they'll be old enough to get themselves home and have a key to get in. Up to them if they see her then. I would love to have it out with her one day, but she can switch on weepy old woman in seconds so has a protective 'act'.

Dusters I'm living vicariously for the moment hearing your moment of standing up to exFIL.

Ohb excellent news, maybe he's gone again

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