support thread for those of us having to 'co-parent' with a narc or very difficult exh 2

[Lilacpink40]

Hope this works...

If only we could just get rid of them with a deterrent spray. We could have one you use regularly to keep them away and another emergency use one for if they do turn up.

Squirt, spray, make the narc go away...

I think mine is a sociopath. He has no sense of altruism or empathy. Lilac "why shouldn't they have their way as no one else matters" this is him, exactly.

dusters it terrifies me, I can't think about it too much. I shared a bed with him. Dangerous and even more so because it's so hidden under the layers of fake.

weird reverse antenatal thread - I love that description !

And the image of you digging your moat Lilac, to fill with the narc repellent. Another product/service to add to the sterilisation and filtering - "Narc Away." We'll have to go on Dragon's Den. Only the women might be "in". Can't see the Alpha Males opening their wallets for 50% of our business.

I think I meant psychopath earlier when I said sociopath. Or probably I should just use the medical term for him, "One crazy fucked up weirdo who'll be on Crimewatch one day".

can't feel guilt yep that's it...which is why you end up feeling shit, it's toxic to be around cos your brain isn't wired to deal with darth maul or whatever he's called, vader's boss...
I think there is a slight difference between the one's that can't because there is a dark whole where empathy neurones should be and those that can't because it's too dangerous for them psychologically, so their defence mechanism swhen they were little were built to protect from scary/twisted parents and became cemented into their personality.
Just from reading around it, but I'm no neuroscientist just trainee pest controller

Sorry for absence. Confusing and stressful time and I feel really down about it all.

On last 3 contact visits eldest DS has phoned me/texted me etc (once I was in yoga class and missed all) saying he feels uncomfortable, unhappy, left out as XH spoiling younger siblings and letting them get away with bad behaviour etc. And wants me to pick him up. Every time I have talked him round calmly and tried to reassure him and encouraged him to talk to XH about how he feels etc. He is adamant he tried and just got shouted at or not heard. (Well that was my relationship with XH so I can empathise with that).

He doesn't want to go anymore. I am extremely concerned about the impact of that decision, he is isolating himself and seems confused/depressed. I know spending time with XH isn't helping at the moment, but I think he will feel so much more left out, isolated, resentful of siblings that will have full on Disney Dad sessions without him. Christmas on the horizon etc. I also really, really selfishly need a break myself sometimes. Even if it's just to clean the house/do paperwork in peace. I just can't do it all 7 days a week. I don't have family to help and I can't afford babysitters. I am at an absolute loss what to do. Court in 3 weeks where he is trying to enforce ridiculous new access arrangements that will have zero benefit on the children at all and has told a pack of lies about me to try and make me look terrible. I don't want to live with this struggle/bad feeling/head fuck/negatively all around my children anymore.

By the way, while DS was texting me/ calling me I would ask him to wait and text XH to ask what was going on (I can't even begin to hear his voice on the phone) every single time XH said 'everything is fine' 'no problem here' etc etc. Utter denial.

Do love our little club, even though its sad to know others go through this shit its so so relieving to know we're not alone and that others understand what's happening to us.

Bibliomania - you're not a fraud at all! I left exh over 6yrs ago and he's still causing as much pain & distress as possible to me & DC. As already mentioned by others, we 'must pay' for being brave enough to leave the narc and their dark world. Sickening

greencar' I get the terror, in relation to my previous ex. The end of our relationship was like a film. My life getting smaller and smaller, him being promoted, socialising etc. I too don't like to think about it too much. I think he got a kick out of seeing me fade away.

I spoke to a nurse at the local mental health trust one day, just briefly when I dropped something in there. She asked about me having anxiety etc, and asked if I was single. I said no, I have a partner. She said what does he think about it all. I replied I don't know, we never speak about it.
She looked at me long and hard, "what d'you think that's all about then?" she asked. At that moment I knew it was him. He was destroying me.

It took me a few more months to get out. At the very end I couldn't bear to even look at him. But I got out, and so did you. And we're here, and we have our kids, and a future, and we know so much.

They're just a list of traits, an identifiable personality disorder. They're a script, a cliche, their future is set in stone. They won't grow - we will. They won't reflect and change - we will. We are strong, they're weak. If they were truly strong they wouldn't have felt the need to try and control/destroy another person. So they should really be the ones feeling scared. But I still understand why you do.

Oh purple that's horrible, for you both, and the court thing on top of that, I'm so sorry.

I know what you mean about feeling left out but I also think to myself "left out of what?" If he's anything like my son he probably wants more than disney. I don't know how old he is but if big enough for sleep overs could a compromise be that he has a couple of nights at a friend's house? To give you a break and to show him you took him seriously? Just a suggestion, really depends on age/the child.
Voodoo doll of your ex being trashed in my head

I second the idea of sleepovers at a friend's instead for your oldest purple as it seems he's really not getting anything positive out of the visits

dusters interesting about what the nurse picked up on..I had similar with a marriage counsellor, who got it in one session and told me to look up emotional vampires. Then when I finally saw a therapist she told me off for trying to help exh.."he can't change, he's hardwired that way"
No-one should terrorise you.

He actually has never had a sleepover at a friends. He is an anxious child. He just wants to have his feelings validated and listened to-my XH is totally incapable of that and it seems the 2 of them are going around in the same circles I was in with XH. Denial, blame, passive aggression, leading to his anger and my DS's fear. He just doesn't feel comfortable around XH and XH can't/won't see it. A 5 year old is much more at his mercy and able to be manipulated than this troubled 12yo. All I can see is a lose/lose situation for DS.

Oh poor thing and he's pre-teen as well, no wonder. Yes it probably is lose-lose for him to be around your ex. If I were you I'd keep him with me for as long as it takes for him to feel stronger and less anxious. So sorry though it must be sickening to know he's unhappy when he's over there.
If it's any consolation, my ex had a DS from a previous relationship who started refusing to see his Dad around the bery same age as your DS. I was separated by then but still in touch with the son. He went through a phase of hating xh then started seeing him again on the odd weekend and has now reached a stage where he's resigned but visits anyway, but only when it suits him. He's gone from very upset to calm and philosophical...If you respect his need to get away then there's more chance of him becoming strong enough to cope I think. for you

I was wondering how you were Purple, that's a real dilemma with your ds.

I see what sinking means when she says left out of what? Is he quite a bit older than his siblings? Just wondering if the fact he's older so now can express his own views, disagree, be more assertive, your ex doesn't like the change in the balance of power? Presumably he finds the younger ones easier to deal with because they are less questioning and more susceptible to Disney Dad.

What is the lesser of two evils here? Not seeing his dad which means he's spared all the current angst and stress. Or, not seeing him which means he'll be isolated from his siblings in this respect? Bear in mind if he stays away he'll know what his siblings are doing with his dad. But, he also knows if he was there he wouldn't be getting the same treatment. So he's not missing out, it's not like that for him at his dads. In fact he's just a witness to what he should be having.

My instinct is that as things stand, it may be better if he doesn't go with his siblings. Can he see him separately, or is that impracticable or just a non-starter?

Cross posted with you purple. As he's 12 I think that's certainly old enough to say what he wants. My ds is 9 and is very vocal about going/not going to ex's as it suits him! I pretty much go with his feelings, unless it's totally impracticable or he's being unreasonable/silly/a child !!

We've acknowledged that we can't win with these men. Somebody earlier on asked what it was like to be the child of a narc. Maybe, very sadly, your son has already reached the stage where the idea of a normal relationship with his dad has to be redefined. Perhaps you have to let him know that you understand his position because that was your position. Hopefully his sadness will be tempered by knowing it's not his fault, he can't change things and that you totally understand.

Will the court take his views in to account given his age?

I just don't know. XH isn't his 'real' dad. He has been around from when he was about 2 and DS sees him as 'Dad'. His 'real' dad had an affair when he was 1 and basically buggered off eventually after making my life hell. He has rarely bothered with him and really hurt him over the years with let downs and barely any contact. He met someone who already had a child and DS slipped way down on his list of priorities. DS has now refused to see him altogether and is happier with that decision. Fine, but I am worrying he is leaning towards that decision with XH as the easiest way to remove any anxiety in the short term. Long term he is going to feel very left out of any male contact.

Sorry, it sounds complicated doesn't it?

I am on the edge here, divorce taken forever to go through as XH being as difficult as possible. All the court shit which is just about control again - like the divorce. I had the nerve to end the relationship. Finances are v stretched, I have 3 jobs, legal fees are high, pressure is immense, selfishly, one or two night off a week gives me the breathing space to cope with the rest of the week. I worry if DS is here all the time he will get more and more unhappy/angry and I will be stretched to the end of my tether trying to cope with it all.

I feel like I am failing him as a mother. My gut instinct is to wrap him up, keep him here and keep him emotionally safe and sound. But I am not sure it is the right decision for him and the bigger gap he has between XH the harder it will be to recover while much younger DCs will continue a relationship with him.

Hold on Purple, all things pass. The court date will come and go. Your divorce will be finalised. And no, it doesn't sound complicated, just life, that didn't go the way you planned. Just like the rest of us.

Go with your instinct. You know your son best, he trusts you the most. Let the worry about male role models come another day. He has you, you'll be enough - you've got 3 jobs ffs - that's 2 more than me !!

I understand about the time to yourself, not at all selfish, and I can see you need it. Would he be able to do a specific thing on the nights he usually goes to his dads, subject to finances, giving lifts etc? Even just always having a friend over for tea that night. I know that's more work for you, but it might soften the blow.

There isn't going to be a right answer, just the best compromise. What are the immediate needs? You said your ds needs to have his feelings validated and listened to. Only you can do that, your ex can't/won't. Then he needs to be allowed to exercise his choice, even if it's to temporarily alleviate his anxiety. The long term will have to wait. You have too much to deal with now to worry about 2, 5, 10 years hence.

I think as you say keep him safe. He's been terribly let down by his dads, that certainly doesn't make you a failure as a mother. It makes you a very let down wife and partner also!

And yes, it's all about control. But you took the biggest part of the control, you kicked his sorry arse out. No court or tissue of lies can change that - and he knows it. Try and take strength from that.

Thank you so much dusters.

Hi Purple
It's just more guilt though. Like I said to good girl. You have been trained to feel guilt. So please stop!

MY DD is refusing to go to ex. She's 9. Last year I made her go and she ended up falling apart. I've built her back up with counselling and love and now I have promised her that I will listen to her when she expresses feelings (child of a narc....) and she gets to choose. I see this as far more important as she grows and how she and I trust each other. My mother gut instinct is screaming and I am firmly listening to it.

It makes me ill when I ignore it.

She's not been for about 6 weeks. DS went alone last time. She said she will go this time but only overnight and home in the morning.
Now if he doesn't bring her home, more fool him. I will go and get her if necessary.

And he will say things to make me feel guilty..... water off a ducks back (and could you all be around Sunday morning for when I feel shit for the interaction with him?) !

dusters thank you thank you thank you, for getting it and for your wise (as ever) words. This bit My life getting smaller and smaller, him being promoted, socialising etc. was just how it went for me too. Your last paragraph is going on the fridge with all the other stuff.

Purple you're not failing your DS as a mother. You know how I know that? You're the one he wants to stay with, the one he feels comfortable with, the one he trusts. The one with three jobs holding it all together and worrying about what to do for the best for him.

I understand you need the break, and your wellbeing is important too. There's no easy solution especially if he's anxious but hang in there, someone here with more experience might be along to suggest something. And as the wise dusters said, this will pass. My gut feeling is the same as everyone else's, if he doesn't want to go then feeling that he's being listened to will be of more benefit than having to go and see what he should be getting. At 12 from what I've been told by several sources a court should take his wishes into account so there should be no comeback on you there.

It's so difficult, I felt much stronger when I first got rid of ex than I do now. But, I got rid of him, that was the most difficult thing, so if I can do that I can do the rest. So can you

Thank you all for sharing your experiences with your children. I have found it really helpful - I'm ashamed to say I've been dealing with my own damage and haven't been as aware as I should have been of what they need to do. I can see that now, thank you x

Its a constant struggle, our heads telling us to 'do the right thing' and encourage the relationship with their dads, but conflicting with our heads AND hearts knowing that the adult in their relationship is fundamentally incapable of a loving relationship on anyone elses terms. And we are expected, and expect ourselves, to put them into that situation. How are we ever going to resolve this one? (We aren't, again, its another one we can't win).

My DCs are a mixed bag. The older ones, I think, accept the 'bare minimum' relationship. They have only ever known that anyway as XH was away working so much, and never engaged when he was here. He was always of the 'expect nothing and you wont be disappointed' school of thought. He has actually said this to my face. Youngest DC doesn't spend any time with him. She's 9. She is constantly by my side, won't sleep on her own, and I am criticised (by him, sometimes by her siblings, and I imagine his family have something to say about it) for this. for encouraging it. Am I expected to abandon her as well?

Wrap them up in cotton wool. Add a layer of bubble wrap. If that's what you want to do. It will always be infinitely better than walking away.

And dusters, getting his kicks at watching you fade away YES, YES, YES!

I would never say this out loud, but I am getting a slight kick, maybe a little tap, at watching XH bloat out, cling on to his long-gone youth, and clutch at the memory of who he once. He once said he was 'just wired differently'. He got that right.

DD's social worker came round today, they had received a child protection report from the police after ex's threat, so they're going to make sure nursery know that he can't pick her up and told me to go to a neighbour's and call the police if I see him come here. Little worried now that he will try something stupid, scared to let DD play in the garden even :(

That's a tough level of anxiety to live with, Natsku. Good that the social worker is onto it. Probably no harm to let your dd enjoy the great indoors for a bit.

Purple I don't have the answers, I'm afraid. These men can't be the men our children need them to be - they don't have it in them. They can sometimes give a few crumbs, and I genuinely don't know if these crumbs are better than nothing.