"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

LazyFemme

I bet if I met your mother I would not like her; the veneer that toxic people have and show to others is only skin deep.

First off you are not a lazy femme at all, I would keep the Femme bit and change the lazy word to something else more affirming because you are really worth it. Do not do yourself down like this, it sounds like your family have done that to you your whole life and you do not need to continue their damaging legacy.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; yours seems to be one of scapegoat, they have made you responsible for all their inherent ills. Your siblings and step dad all have roles as well that they continue to play out.

It is not your fault they are like this, you did not make them this way. What if anything do you know about your mother's background; that often provides clues. Pound to a penny her own childhood was itself abusive.

Where is your biological father; are you in any contact with him nowadays?

Toxic people like your mother are averse to therapy and it will never happen; your only mistake in that regard was to actually ask her to go with you in the first place. These people really do think they have done nothing wrong here and even years of therapy won't change that. Generally speaking joint counselling is never ever advised where there is or has been abuse of any type within the relationship. No decent counsellor worth their salt would have seen the two of you in the same room anyway due to the abuse meted out to you in childhood.

I would contact BACP and see if they can help you; they do not charge the earth and they will do more than six sessions.

I would also refer you to the point made at the start of this thread as well:-

"One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth"

Reading the resources at the start of this thread could also help you as well.

iam convention hasn't helped so far. Convention dictates that children are loved and cared for and helped to grow into rounded adults by having healthy role models to show them the way.
To those that judge and make vacuous comments such as you mentioned, I say, 'Walk a mile in my shoes'. People who make these comments have NO idea. I would suggest not sending a card. It gives validation to someone who does not warrant validation. I stopped sending my father cards before I went NC with him. It was the only tangible thing left that could give a message. By sending a card you are giving a message that his behaviour is OK. You are sending a message to the world that he is OK. He can use it as a symbol to others to show that he is a 'good' father. And he's not.

Hello StatelyHomes - can I drop back in for some hand holding? I went NC with my dad last year but I find I get very judged for it. People tell me that I only have one father, that I'll regret it when he's gone - I really don't think I will - and now we are coming up to his birthday and Christmas and I wonder if I should bow to convention and send cards. The reasons are sound enough to me but sound pathetically trivial when I state them to other people.

Spartacus

Do not send cards to people like your dad who have treated you badly; why should such bad behaviour be rewarded?. Sod societal convention as well.

Ignore those well meaning useless people who project their own experiences of their emotionally nice family onto you. They are not acting in your best interests here and have no interest either in what you have to say. I would just give them bland answers, the barest of bare minimums if they keep asking. They will soon give up.

This link may also help you and I have pasted part of it also here:-

emergingfrombroken.com/what-if-my-mother-or-father-dies-before-we-resolve-our-relationship/

"Most of the time people don’t even care to hear the reasons adult children have for not seeing their parents; they just tell these adult children they are wrong. They automatically defend the parents without even hearing or caring about the reason behind the broken relationship. That is offensive.

It is dismissive and discounting. It is even more offensive when the reasons for not seeing parents ARE revealed and people still judge the adult child to be the one in the wrong. That is what this “what if your parents die” question is about. It is about parental rights and entitlement ~ something that YOU as their child don’t have in a dysfunctional family system. People are so afraid that if they ‘hear you’ and validate your reasons for not having relationship with your parents, or for going no contact, that they might have to think about the dysfunctional relationships they have with their parents or even worse, with their grown kids. So often parents equate regarding their children as equally valuable with giving up their power and control over them. (and If giving up their power and control in favor of embracing equal value is something that they are not willing to consider doing, they insist on going down rabbit holes and changing the subject, always turning it back on the child, rather than giving their child a chance to be heard)."

I second that Attila.

Thank you for replying, Attila. People do like my mum, my friends do, even I do if I only take her at face value in a very limited social interaction! My friends do accept that the woman they see is not the one I know and the one who brought me up though. It's difficult for me to read you calling her toxic, which is interesting. It was always an weird unspoken but very important rule that we never bad mouth our parents. I think for me forgiveness is not an option right now at all, because it would mean feeling sympathy for her which places me in the role of the big bad bitch! I think I probably need to work on seeing her as a person who does bad things first of all.

I have no idea where my biological father is, he was abusive and had no interest in me after my mother left him. My stepdad was a horrendous bully, not to mother but to me and to my brothers. They dont seem to remember/care though. My mother was brought up in a family where it was all stiff upper lip, never reveal emotions etc. So she was never told she was loved, I think she thinks she's done much better than her parents because she did tell us she loved us. And it's things like that that I struggle with, like abusive parents don't tell their children they love them or take them to dance classes, do they?! But then good, loving parents don't laugh as the other hits the child, or force a 14 year old to shower with the door open as a punishment.

I do think you're right about therapy, she has such strong defences up that she can't even consider the possibility that she's done anything wrong. I'm finally realising that she will never give me what I want and need, never. So I have to stop asking and waiting and wishing and just learn how to provide it for myself.

I just hate that this is all happening so close to Christmas. I feel like whatever happens at Christmas will send a message and I'm not sure I'm able to make a decision on anything just yet. I don't want to go to her house but if I don't it seems very final. I kind of want to cut contact but without anyone actually knowing about it! Really need to work on my courage... I actually don't want to go at Christmas (although who knows if I'll actually be invited now!) so maybe that shold be my answer. But then do I send presents and cards or just nothing? I'm on tenterhooks waiting for a call from her but dreading it and not wanting to answer when/if it does come. I was bulimic for over a decade but only make myself sick now after an interaction between me and my mother, or sister. So it's not good for my physical or mental health to interact really.

Hi Femme,

(I refuse to call you lazy because you are not!)

Re your comment:-

"I don't want to go to her house but if I don't it seems very final. I kind of want to cut contact but without anyone actually knowing about it! Really need to work on my courage... I actually don't want to go at Christmas (although who knows if I'll actually be invited now!) so maybe that shold be my answer. But then do I send presents and cards or just nothing"

If you do not want to go to her house then you do not have to go to her house; you are an adult and can make your own decisions. I would not send her anything let alone buy her a present either; why should bad behaviours on her part be at all rewarded by you?. She like all toxic people has never apologised nor has accepted any responsibility for her actions.

Re this part of your comment:-

"I think she thinks she's done much better than her parents because she did tell us she loved us. And it's things like that that I struggle with, like abusive parents don't tell their children they love them or take them to dance classes, do they?! But then good, loving parents don't laugh as the other hits the child, or force a 14 year old to shower with the door open as a punishment".

Words are cheap and this is also where the "we took you to Stately Homes" reference comes into play. She chose abusive men over her children. She may have taken you to dance class but it does not in any way make up for the facts that they laughed as the other hit the child or force a 14 year old to shower with the door opened. These actions are cruel and abusive and abuse is about having power and control over the other person.

Femme you also do not have to forgive. See pp above. I really,really recommend 'Forgiving and Not Forgiving' by Jeanne Safer.
These people have caused so much stress in you that it has made you ill. They have made you frightened of keeping yourself safe and well. It's not easy to come to terms with the reality of a toxic upbringing. No one is saying it is. But it can be done. Small steps. No cards. No presents. Maybe think about the happy Christmas you want and can achieve?

Re my name, it's a pop culture reference as opposed to doing myself down but thinking about it, lazy is something my mother always called me so I might change my name!

Can I ask have many/all of you gonna no contact?

*gone

Fair dos re the pop culture reference but I would rather see you as femme fatale or Captain Sensible than a lazy femme!.

Have a think about what you personally would like to do for Christmas with your DD. You could make and start your own traditions!.

I'm no longer lazy!

Very good!!!

One of the Meerkat family traditions now re Christmas is to go on holiday for the duration.

I make sure I'm always rota' to work Christmas Eve and/or Christmas Day, then try to spend whatever time is left over with friends or, failing that, with my pets.

Well my sibling and I talked and talked about our mother last night with a friend. 3 bottles of wine didn't make it any easier and I can clearly see that NC would be best for me, it would allow me to be free of her shame and disgust and to find who I am. The only problem is friend asking how it would change my DC lives. My opinion is that she rarely sees them and when she does she tells them that they are horrible children, tells X that X is prettier than Y in front of both X and Y and is a poor influences. How have you found it for your DC?

Ah that sounds lovely! I kind of feel bad with it just being me and Dd as I know she loves being around other people, and she does enjoy being with my family. They are nice to her when they see her. We will have a lovely time just the two of us, but I feel like I've really failed at providing a family for her

Sorry, I was talking about Atilla going on holiday over Xmas when I said it sounds lovely!

Iamamazing, that sounds awful. If there's nothing positive to be had for your children interacting with your mother then I wouldn't feel bad about stopping the contact

Re Christmas (sorry to keep going on about it, but the whole idea of the thing is stressing me out so much!), what should I do if they send me gifts/cards? Send them back? Ignore? I kind of feel like if I cut my mother, stepfather and sister out then my brothers wont want anything to do with me either. Which wouldn't make much difference really as we never contact one another, they can't be bothered with me and while I do care about them it's difficult as they very much keep me at arm's length. So maybe it's just best to walk away completely, stop pretending theres anything there for me at all and just accept it's me and DD and no one else.

Tomboy

If they do send you anything I would donate it all to the charity shop. Any cards from them can and should be shredded; do not give these items any power. Sending it back will just give them an "in" to bother you even more because they know you received it so radio silence from you on this front is necessary.

Your parents were not good parents to you so I would keep them well away from your DD as well. They could well do similar harm to her as they have done to you.

Iamamazing

re your comment:-
The only problem is friend asking how it would change my DC lives. My opinion is that she rarely sees them and when she does she tells them that they are horrible children, tells X that X is prettier than Y in front of both X and Y and is a poor influences. How have you found it for your DC?

How did you respond to your friend's question?. It would change your children's lives for the better because they won't have to live with your mother's overt favouritism and scapegoating of the other sibling any more. Also she was not a good parent to you and toxic parents often become toxic grandparent figures too. I would ignore your friend because she has not seen and heard what you have from your mother, people who ask such things really do not have any idea of what a dysfunctional family can actually do.

Whoah iamamazing - no contest - time to go NC. Your mother is an appalling example and is setting the golden child/scapegoat routine up with your children. Friend may mean well, but has no idea what you are dealing with. Your children will continue to flourish in the care of a mum who genuinely has their best interests at heart and protects them from the toxic effects of their grandmother (and who is also protecting and healing herself).

TomboyFemme - give any presents received away and shred the cards. Don't give the family the satisfaction of being able to comment on an action like returning them. I agree with Attila, radio silence is very, very powerful. Remember, you are in control here. It's maybe hard to see that at the moment, as you navigate the 'bigness' of it all. But think about the liberation from all that stress and the freedom you will gain to create a Christmas with new traditions, just for you two.