"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you both for reinforcing what I believe. I don't want my children to grow up and feel one ounce of what I feel and I will do whatever I can to protect them from toxic people and situations. Friend has also suggested talking to my mother but I know that all hell would break loose. I can hear the conversation in my head and know exactly what her responses would be. I'm well trained!! NC feels right for me and my DC and I guess others will judge and question. I just need to prepare myself for those judgements.

"Friend has also suggested talking to my mother but I know that all hell would break loose. I can hear the conversation in my head and know exactly what her responses would be. I'm well trained!!"

I can so relate to this. I know for sure that having a conversation with mother just won't work. She can't/won't hear it. Anyone who suggests this as a possible solution just doesn't know what they're like, they're assuming they are normal people who are able to listen and reflect. Hopefully your friend will at least accept that you know it wouldn't work, even if she can't understand it.

Good morning ladies and gents (if there are any on here at the moment). Just popped in as I need to chat. I was wondering whether to bother you good folk, but was full of doubt about whether to do so.

I'm struggling big time with the realisation that I may not get over what happened at the hands of my parents, when growing up. I have forgiven dad as he had genuinely felt so much remorse for not being there for me. I can see that being out of work depressed him big time, because like me he needs to be on the go/doing something, and looking back, he was very depressed.

I'm struggling with the feelings of worthlessness, of being a horrid daughter, of mum telling others what I have "lied" about, I'm struggling with so much self doubt stemming from my mum telling me I was stupid, lazy, a waste of space, useless etc. It has become pretty overwhelming, and if I didn't have my DH, DC and our beloved staffies, I probably wouldn't be here typing this. The difference between my mum and my dogs is at least my dogs know how to love unconditionally, they are not judgemental regarding what you can give/do for/use you are to them and they are willing to comfort you when you need it. All in all, the more I have to deal with my mum and her lies, the more I appreciate my dogs.

Has anyone been this low before, over the childhood treatment they had in their younger years? How did you get through it? I feel that my youngest and older brothers know about mum, but have been conditioned to stick by her at all costs. It feels like we're the dogs that have been cast out and left to die because we weren't the obedient creatures we were expected to be.

It's all so overwhelming, so depressing, when you actually realise the extent of the mental and emotional damage done by the narc(s) in your life.

Thank you Attilla and Knife - i shall read that link.

Femme, I hope it isn't presumptious to say that I feel you and I are on the same journey.

One of the things I have found very difficult as a result of my upbringing - where all the power was with my parents - is making decisions. I have had to go through a very conscious process of learning to 'trust my gut' and ask how I feel.

You are saying that you don't want to go to your mum for Christmas. Take the next step and choose not to go.

If you feel you need to have a reason, can you find a charity to support on Christmas Day? Would you be able to drive an older person to church in the morning, for example? Then you have a perfectly 'acceptable' reason not to go to your mum, but are also then liberated to have the day you want to have with your daughter.

My brother and sister have cut me off in response to my decision to opt out of the family. Maybe it's because I'm wrong and crazy, which is what they want to think. But I've done some reading about family dynamics and as I understand it, it's really threatening when one family member challenges the script by saying 'this is how it was, and it was not OK for me.'

The other important thing I learnt was that siblings don't have the same parenting experience. (sorry, that sounds very jargony) - in the years between children arriving, parents change, circumstances change, and sometimes one child is the Golden Child and the other the Scapegoat. The Golden Child will not agree with the Scapegoat about how their parents treated them.

This does not mean the Scapegoat is wrong or that their feelings are invalid.

I hope you find peace. Christmas should be about joy not about putting up with bad people.

scruffs I also had a difficult upbringing due to depressed and alcoholic parents. Like you I struggle to come to terms with it especially the feeling that maybe it wasn't all that bad, maybe ive enlarged upon it in my mind, made it out to be worse than it was - after all, we weren't like the underdressed, starving neglected children that you see on the NSPCC adverts - we had clothes, food, nice birthdays and Christmases, a clean house and our own nice bedrooms.
But what I can't get over is how I was made to feel. Is that enough to warrant calling the 'abuse' card? I used to to think it was normal - until I met my DH who had lovely, loving parents and had my own children and found myself thinking that many of the things my mother did (and my father stood by and let it happen).
We had the perfect scapegoat and golden child scenario in my family, I was indeed the scapegoat, my younger brother the golden child, my mothers 'two eyes' as he was described. Since the fall out with my father - and when my mother died my brother was just as angry at my father over his treatment of us - I'm the 'child' cast out, not spoken to and pushed aside for daring to speak my opinion yet my brother who confronted my father initially backed down and has been enveloped back into my fathers home and new family - just like it always was when we were children. My brother was always the 'forgiven' one.
Now I think fuck them. I love my brother, always will but understand he's just as weak as my father. I'll forever be NC with my father, he's crossed the ultimate line this time, I speak to my brother though.
I think I will always struggle to some degree with the feelings of worthlessness but every day I look at my DH and children and see how much they love me and try and remember it wasn't me, it was them. Same as you should keep reminding yourself if you can. ITS NOT US ITS THEM. NORMAL PEOPLE DO NOT GO AROUND BEING HORRIBLE TO OTHERS.

My brother and sister have cut me off in response to my decision to opt out of the family. Maybe it's because I'm wrong and crazy, which is what they want to think. But I've done some reading about family dynamics and as I understand it, it's really threatening when one family member challenges the script by saying 'this is how it was, and it was not OK for me

Yes to this Iamalso and also the paragraph about scapegoat / golden child parenting experience.

I've been reading this website, daughters of narcissitic mothers (www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com) a lot. I'm not sure if my mother is a narcissist or not but I recognise and relate to so much of it so it's helpful.

Spartacus, (are you the same person as IAmAmazing?!) Yes that sounds very familiar. I've always felt like I need mothers approval for every decision I made, like it wouldn't be real until she'd said it was ok. The thought if letting this go is both liberating and terrifying!

One of the things I am struggling with at the moment is the accusation that I was a horrible child/teenager. My mother has said things like "you've always hated us, you made that very clear", "you were always so bad tempered and miserable", and the thing is, I was. BUT it wasn't, of course, because I hated them. No child hates their primary care givers, it's just survival instinct not to. It was because i was deeply unhappy. And I feel like it would've been a more acceptable, both to my mother and also maybe to myself and others, way to express that if I'd become super "nice" and put on the happy face she wanted me to and never been "difficult" or "moody". But I expressed it by shutting down and because I always felt that everything I did was wrong and I was constantly the bad, difficult, moody horrible one that became a self fulfilling prophecy. I was a "difficult" baby and "rejected" my mother by going to other people for hugs and so she rejected me right back and tarred me with that brush. So I could never recover and so there was no point even trying. But does it give her a leg to stand on, so to speak, because I genuinely wasn't pleasant to be around most of the time. She used to complain that I would be so much nicer to other people, friend's parents and so on, and it was like yes because they don't treat me like a terrible person so I can just be me. That saying about the children who need to most love expressing it in the most unloving of ways was very true for me. I guess it doesn't matter in the end. She would find a way to blame me no matter what the reality was so there's almost no point thinking about it

You've been parentified, tomboy - she has as a child made you responsible for looking after her feelings. Think about your own daughter - how many times in a day does she totally lose her shit over tiny things, and internally you're going "aargh give me a break" but you try and help her sort out her trouble and at the end of the day if you feel tired or stressed it's more "can't wait till she goes to bed" rather than "oh poor me, what the hell is wrong with my daughter?" You know? Part of being a parent (and I've no doubt you do it) is bringing your calm to your kids' anger. Not only did your mother not do that for you, she expected you to do it for her either directly by making a nice happy face or indirectly by serving as the scapegoat.

Yes! That is so true, toomuch, thank you for posting that. I've always felt so responsible for her feelings, so worried about her and feeling like I need to protect her. The mother SHOULD protect the child, that's literally their function!

There's one time that I really remember where I did manage to modify my own behaviour enough that it changed hers. It was her birthday and she was in a horrendous mood and really picking on me for no apparent reason. I was maybe 10ish. I remember making a really conscious decision to be super happy and ignore how unfair and mean she was being and just reply to everything with a light and airy tone and smile, because I just knew that if I responded in kind I would be accused of ruining her birthday and would never hear the end of it. And it worked. Her mood lifted and we had a nice day. Because she was unable to regulate her own emotions sufficiently, I had to do it for her.

Bumping so my sibling can fine this thread.

.

Wow that makes so much sense to me too. I was parentified. My parents always had money worries and they used to tell us children way too much information about how we were at risk of losing the house, how there wasn't enough money for things (always money for drink and fags though) how poorly my father business was doing and how he was almost bankrupt, things that used to make us lay awake at night worrying, adding to the other worries that my little brain had. From an early age I became aware that I was often the source of my mothers happiness / sadness and I becane this people pleaser, something I'm aware im like to this day.
When my mother was alive and I had contact with my father I always felt massively obliged to buy ridiculous amounts for them on Christmases and birthdays. Not that you'd get much thanks mind, whatever you bought my mother in particular she'd find fault with some aspect of it.
Now I realise why I feel like I was a parent to my parents - always trying to make them happy.

Mine did the same with money, Eighties, to the point where I wouldn't ask for basic things. Of course my sister got everything she wanted and needed...

Same here, I knew not to ask for school trips, hated asking for clothes or things most other young girls my age would have. My mother never took me shopping, we never had girly days out and she never showed me anything like applying makeup or fashion advice. I didn't even bother thinking about university as I knew full well there would be no parental support either financially or emotionally.
I don't mean to sound ungrateful but due to their poor money managing I always had the 'knock off' version of everything. That wasn't so bad in a way because you know they tried to give us stuff but it was annoying as whatever you did get as it was given you'd have the lecture about how they struggled, that they hoped it was ok, the full guilt trip so you couldn't enjoy what you'd been given anyway.
For the xmas after my 17th birthday they did buy me my first car, a really cheap little old Austin that I was really grateful for. Trouble was I was now beholden to my parents and God was it brought up all the time about 'everything we've done for you' I paid for my own driving lessons, insured that car and paid for insurance and fuel out of the £50 a week money from my apprenticeship and my mother STILL insisted I give her £10 a week keep. When I started passed my test and started spending more and more time over my boyfriends and generally having a social life my mother decided I was 'treating the place like a hotel' and so out I had to go.
And I still bent over backwards to help them financially afterwards and bought them huge amounts at xmas and birthdays as I felt sorry for them!
It was the expected thing. Me on the other hand used to get a token gift of a £10 in a birthday card (and still did up until recently) because I was now working and earning
My brother on the other hand has been given lavish and expensive gifts (and always was over the years) because he's on his own and doesn't have a wife and family.
Yet, when I confronted my father about the obvious differences of treatment over the years he said I was imagining it and 'we bought you your first car didn't we?' Yes. 25 fecking years ago.

Was anyone else afraid to tell their mums about health related things? I've just remembered this and am horrified really. I remember being plagued by threadworms throughout my childhood but I was too scared to tell my mother as the only time I did she ranted and raved about me being 'dirty' and all my fault because I wasn't washing my hands. They got so bad I couldn't sleep and I used to put Vaseline on my bottom just to get some relief.
The same happened in the run up to my periods - she burst into my room one day brandishing my knickers screaming at me about whether I'd let someone touch me (I was getting the normal heavy discharge that came with growing up) she frightened the life out of me and I was convinced there was something wrong with me. When my periods did start she couldn't cope with explaining anything so she roped my cousin in to explain it all. My mother just shouted 'don't go near boys'. So I took that literally.
She made such a fucking big deal about everything I simply stopped telling her. I became secretive and that enraged her even more. I felt I couldn't confide in her about anything at all.

Eghities I couldn't talk to my mother at all. No period chat, just a book left in my room. I couldn't talk to her because she would explode with comments alluding to them being dirty and shameful. I spent so many years with her just buying panty liners and soaking through in school. I thought that what she had done was right and that my body was obviously abnormal. Horrendous. Talking through my childhood with my sibling is bringing some very sad realisations. My DF would always 'get his shoes' because he was leaving during yet another row. He would stop the car during a row with my mother and walk away and leave us there. Mother would just sit saying how he would come back (which he inevitably did) but bloody hell. No wonder I'm desperate to keep them happy (to the detriment of my own happiness). I know I've said it before but it sucks. I feel like a lost little girl again and it's horrible.

Yes to the health stuff. I used to hide illness because I would be told off for it.

I had to actively ask her about periods and then she told me the minimum. Once I started pads would appear in the bottom of my wardrobe once a month but there was no discussion or help whatsoever. By my mid-teens I was bleeding very heavily (soaking through a tampax super plus tampon plus a super towel in an hour) and that was horrible to try and cope with alone and led to all sorts of anxiety and paranoia about bleeding through clothes.

I also started to get very tired. Would walk up the steep hill home after school and fall onto the sofa. My whole family used to tease me for being a "lazy teenager". It was only after a couple of years of this that I started fainting in school and a teacher insisted I saw a doctor. I was very anaemic, unsurprisingly with the heavy bleeding.

Same here with health issues. I had worms and headlice loads when growing up and had to just try to deal with it myself. When it comes to the normal growing up stuff that a girl faces there was nothing other than extreme and constant shaming. It was excruciating. when I plucked up the courage to ask for deodorant they walked round the whole supermarket jeering at me, I was in tears, so embarrassed and humiliated when needing deodorant as you enter your teens is such a normal non-issue! why did they have to make it so horrible for me? I had to try to make a pack of sanitary towels last 2 months despite long and heavy periods and would use loo roll and sometimes steal pads.

My friends would talk about their mums teaching them to shave their legs or apply make up and didn't understand when I said my mother would just get angry if I asked about anything like that.

All of these posts make me so sad. I've been constantly berated for parenting in such a close and loving way and like another user further up thread said, I always felt that my mother had done well considering how dreadful her mother was. I'm realising that it still wasn't good enough though. There's so much that I want to get out and I just want to scream and scream that it wasn't me; it was them. It was HER.

I'm the same, I'd forgotten about deodorant too. I was told by my father that I smelled and should wash more. Of course I needed deodorant but didn't even think to ask for it or was given it.
You know I'm sat here thinking, if this was sexual abuse you could prosecute, even all these years later. There's no justice for survivors of emotional or physical abuse yet the scars remain, just as much many years later.

Is it your mother who berated you for parenting the way you do, iamamazing?

Mine didn't berate me but has made snide remarks and "well I never did that with you!" and I'm thinking "Yes, and look how I turned out! Totally fucked up!! So you'll forgive me for trying something different!"

What I will say now is that my two Dc's have never and will never go through what I have. If anything I overcompensate. If DD needs sanitary stuff I buy 20 different types and keep all essentials stocked up to the max. They kids only have to ask and they get, probably spoiling them a bit but I need them to know that they can talk to me about anything and they will never go without as long as I can provide for them.

Eightiesmate, yes and everyone understands sexual abuse and knows it's bad, whereas emotional stuff is so slippery and easy to explain away.

My stepdad told me I smelled too, but he was referring to my genitals

My mother used to say I 'ruined' my kids. I picked them up too much, didn't leave them cry long enough, listened to them too much and allowed them too much of a say - even when they were small. I ignored her most of the time. I was determined my children would feel like valued and loved members of my family.