"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hugs right back at you! I have to go get the kids in a minute but just wanted to say I'm reading your posts shove, and that there are loads of things that are sparking off memories and "oh, that's like me!" in your last post. I'm just trying to get my head round the authentic self stuff and I'm doing therapy with someone who was actually recommended by another Stately Homer - just starting, but I think it could be good. I feel as if I'm basically a brave but easily frightened kid, equipped with a bunch of useful rules of thumb about how adults behave so I can sort of see through the fear and behave appropriately, but the fear's still there, and I'd like to have some sort of better accomodation with it than I do right now...

Wish I could talk more but I have to go, aargh.

Don't worry toomuch - there's loads of time for us to chat!! Plus, I did just write something of the rough length of War & Peace there, which I realise is just a tad overwhelming!

Am trying to write down memories of the abuse today, under instructions from my counsellor. Urgh. I have quite literally blanked quite a lot of things out so it feels like a kind of mental archaeology. I am surprised how intact the memories are under the layers of forgetting.

Hi, coming back here after an internet-free week, so sorry for not replying to things sooner.

shove, oh, how kind of you -- It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy to realise someone even recognises my username and then to say such nice things! Yes, my mother is strangely fixating on clothes, but it's almost more of an identification issue - I think I've figured that out since I once posted about it, as it felt very much like criticism, but a lot of the time I think she just needs to get a label on what I'm wearing ("blue"/"green", "skirt"/"dress") before moving on. Although things like telling me I looked fat in a top I told her I loved I can't see as much other than criticism and perhaps it is the misplaced love thing. She's definitely very anxious.

I wouldn't think much of her MH issues are precisely due to my father, but I don't think he helps. She has schizophrenia and was actually mostly sane until she developed serious side effects from her medications, which they changed to save her life, but since then she simply hasn't lived completely in the real world. I think my father sometimes ignores her symptoms in an attempt to protect himself, as he doesn't want to admit the extent of her illness. It really bugged me when we visited this summer as he would often do things like call her 'stupid' or 'ridiculous' when she was just being anxious - and that just doesn't help. I brought up my worries about dementia with him, and he admitted tearfully that he could be purposefully ignoring the signs because he doesn't want it to be true. I'm worried that I'm going to have to do something like ask other people to look out for her - maybe at her church? She's pretty involved there - as I'm not sure he is up to the task. It's very hard as they live on another continent. Also, it is not clear to me what is normal side effects of her new medication vs worrying signs, but her memory was much poorer this summer than I remember from last year, to the extent of having no recall whatsoever of reasonably long discussions earlier the same day. But I'm also not sure how much effort I should be putting into this - dealing with them is difficult for me, and my father is a competent adult. Surely he can take some responsibility here? And the fact remains that my mother is very likely to outlive my father by several decades (he's in poor health, and nearly all her older female relatives were - or still are - centenarians...) so perhaps I will just pick up the pieces later.

magic, I think I remember that thread! I have no idea if I posted or not. Your sister sounds like she's not handling her own issues - and seriously, I know nothing about the topic, but I am fairly sure the law does not mandate access to a nephew! She's acting irrationally, and you've done the right thing to protect your son from her influence.

You seem quite reasoned regarding your parents' contact with your son, and as long as you and your partner are aware I'd say that's fine. I've done similar with my daughter - she really loves both sets of her grandparents, and I would hope that my parents can maintain that relationship with her. Although I may be different as I remember telling friends as a teen that my father would make a great grandfather (or dinner guest), but he wasn't a great father :) So I recognised that early. I worry, though, that they might push it - he teased her too much this summer, which I spoke to him about once I realised what was happening, and while he didn't seem to respond DH said that he actually checked himself a few times later in the visit (and I didn't leave her alone with him again).

toomuch - thanks, yes, she is very childlike and has definitely regressed since her medication change. It's like I've already mourned for the mother I once had - we just can't speak the way we used to; I can't share serious things with her. It's sad because she was such a competent woman - a female in a very male-dominated field, and making reasoned (if perhaps not the best) decisions regarding her relationship. She told me that she decided to stop having so many fights with my father once I came along as she didn't think that would be a good environment for a child (I was an accident, and I suspect they had planned to be childless). Apparently she used to keep him in line by threatening regularly to leave, and then actually doing so for weeks at a time until he behaved. I honestly don't know what would have been better.

Interesting point, shove, about their childhoods - I know my mother was abused as a child (one of the reasons I think she planned to be childless). Reading the Controlling Parents book gave me insight into my father, though, as I knew my mother's history, but hadn't clicked to my father's. He had fine parents as far as I know, but severe trauma: he nearly died aged 3 and his health overshadowed his childhood. He was limited in what he was allowed to do (needlessly according to current medical knowledge, but as he was one of the first children to survive this, no one knew at the time!) and his whole family actually moved to live in an environment thought to be more conductive for his health. That must have set up a strong feeling of lack of control and I can see his adult behaviour as an attempt to regain that by controlling everything and everyone else.

Oh, fascinating point about functional families - I was trying to explain to a friend the other day about how my parents interact with me as if they are going through a checklist of questions and she talked about how her father would ask her and her partner about work all the time until they told him that they didn't like thinking about it in the middle of the weekend and that it made them stresssed (they share a home! Thus why speaking on the weekend - something I can barely even contemplate). And I remember thinking how sharing that something made me stressed would have basically zero impact in my father's behaviour - an irrelevant piece of information to him. And how amazing that was all it took to change her father's behaviour!

And oh, toomuch, we have stuff in common! I've on ocassasion been mistaken as a statistician (usually by mathematicians; statisticians think I'm a computer scientist, and computer scientists think I'm a mathematician - I'm none and all, bwahahaha! anyway...) and I write fiction. I find working out relationships in fiction has been very helpful for me, and I've noticed a change in what my characters face as I've developed in my own personal explorations.

And I'm afraid I've spent far too long just writing this post so it must be super-long!

Hi Murmuration, thanks for the reply. I did think we could keep it civilised with my parents for ds' sake but my partner was invited to bring him round this morning and did so...and guess who's turned up? My lovely sister. It's so disrespectful and I've asked him to bring ds home straight away. I'm furious actually, I don't know if it was planned or what my sister has said to them but she's almost certainly given them some version of what a bitch I'm being and copied them in to that nonsense email so it's not like they're totally innocent. Or maybe it's a coincidence and they didn't plan it that way

Oh Magic is your sister the golden child? I'm furious on your behalf. My brother is the golden child (or in other words a manipulative narcissist) and we are NC. My mother once pulled that stunt - we live 5 hours away so drove for hours to see them, got through the door and there are my brother's shoes (I am sure he deliberately placed them there). My mother came rushing out, big smiles, hugs 'how wonderful' etc and I simply pointed at the shoes. The mood changed completely 'for goodness sake... he's your brother' etc - she'd even hidden his car round the corner! I left despite her insults, had her phoning me in anger at my rudeness, I was destroying the family etc. Basically for once in my life I had actually stood up to her rather than folding. It was my punishment.
I explained in an email if she wanted to see her grandchildren she had to respect my wishes in that matter. She hasn't pulled a stunt like that since, but keeps 'suggesting' similar things...

Hi Introverted. I'm not sure if she's the golden child, if anything she's been quite rebellious over the years. I actually think she sees me that way although the facts don't bear that out. I was always the quiet, well-behaved, high(ish)-achieving anxious one but it didn't stop me getting on the wrong side of my dad's temper unfortunately.

Maybe the fact that I've had enough and really put some distance in has unsettled her, or maybe she's unconsciously using the opportunity to bask in undivided attention. She's made it very clear in her behaviour for a long time that she really doesn't like me being around. I don't know if it's insecurity or what really. I've tried so hard to be her friend and it's really hurt me, we could be allies but instead she sees me as competition. Anyway, I've been here so many times before with her - she goes to these huge extremes and then it's supposed to all be ok again afterwards just like with my dad. It's like I'm just being churlish if I'm still upset after being called a c* or whatever (I know swearing is allowed but it's the 'bad' one ).

My mother has always been competitive with me; from grades to degrees; from children to careers. She just doesn't appear to like me. My brother, however can do no wrong despite running away from home, impregnating his underage girlfriend and stealing from her. I still remember her rage when I turned down my place at Oxford. She called me an 'ungrateful bitch' and threw a plate of the floor.
I hate that she treated us so differently - my brother used it to his advantage. I find myself so conscious of treating my children equally.

Oh, magic, that's terrible about your sister. Good to bring him right back! If you can manage it, you could think some mildly compassionate thoughts in her direction for being still obviously in thrall to your parents, and then turn your attention to your own well being. She's not your responsibility and if she's interferring with your recovery, you are right to put some distance. It's so hard not be upset about things, though!

That's what I'm struggling with. My own reactions. And then I get irrationally angry with everyone. Like today, my father asked "how was work this week" despite the fact that (1) I told him last week that I was off work this week and (2) I asked them two weeks ago to stop asking me about work on Saturday evenings. I attempted to say to my husband that I had to work on not being upset by the contradictory messages from my parents that they have the right to know everything about my life, and that they ignore anything they know about my life. He attempted to 'problem-solve' by suggesting I tell them to stop asking about work. Which I did two weeks ago and he actually heard me do so! Yet I am far more worked up about two small statements than I need be. I can't change my parents, but I can change my reactions. But how?? Although even recognising that I am overly upset is a step, I suppose.

Wow, introverted, sorry to hear your mother is just so nasty :( It sounds like maybe she enjoys pitting you two against each other? Like it's some kind of game

Murmur that's a good point about managing reactions to others' behaviour. It's really shit to have parents that don't really care, or at worst enjoy seeing you down as it makes them feel better.
I wish I could let go of the hurt that I am held up to standards not expected of others; that nothing I do is good enough, and the fact that in 10 years my mother has phoned twice - both to berate me on not speaking to my manipulative narcissist brother. I carry so much anger about it deep down which I know would shock everyone - I'm usually so patient and people-pleasing.
Most of all I wish I could find intrinsic self-worth. However much I try I rely on others for their view of me, like a young child. Any criticism is like a punch in the guts, even if valid and I retreat in on myself and the feelings of worthlessness all come flooding back.
All this feels ridiculous as my mother is a well respected head teacher - loved by all, would do anything for her pupils etc. Truth is it was always a stick to beat me with - telling me how lucky I was, listen to what my pupils go through...she used up all her empathy at work until there was nothing but disdain left for me.
How do I move past it? How can I stop caring that my own mother doesn't love me? How can I value myself if my own mother (and she always used to say this at her most worked up) 'know me best' and knows what a 'nasty victim' I make of myself?...

Good evening ladies. I've been off this thread for a few weeks (I think....don't quote me on that LOL) as I've been going through a depressing time with my own feelings. I feel guilty for thinking of myself, but in reality I know I have to, because I can't be a decent mum unless I look after myself.

At the end of May my dad died. I went round as soon as I got the call from my lovely older brother. I went into care mode (from my days as a HCA in many nursing homes) and tried to comfort my mum. She gave one hell of a filthy look and told me to "Go away and leave me alone". I thought it was just grief talking, but when all of my brothers offered comfort, she accepted without a problem. Then came the day of the funeral and she completely ignored me. My friends all saw this and one, who was a nursing auxiliary in the ward my dad was in a few times, said that mum had also ignored me when I was visiting dad in hospital.

Fast forward to recent events and my GC brother (younger one) text me to demand that I allow our DC to visit mum. DS has noticed that mum has not made any effort to come round and see them, or even lifted the phone to ring and ask how they are. I was living 90 miles from my home town while attending university and knew from the last visit to mum and dad's that dad was very ill and wouldn't last for another year. So I moved back to be closer to dad and get the DC to go round to see him before he passed away.

Last time I was round at mum's, she verbally laid into me about how I said the family was dysfunctional. I had never said that and I told her I could prove it. I had said that there was some dysfunctional behaviour and I said that because I took a step back from our family and could see what other people see. She has been left in debt because she sat back and didn't check that dad had paid certain bills, and had she done so, she would have know he didn't pay up and she could have sorted it. She knew he had previous form for it, so it made sense to not take his word for it and check anyway, but instead of checking, she sat back and let it happen. But mum is more concerned about blaming dad for it rather than accepting that she could have done more to minimise the amount she is expected to pay back. Not only that, but she was also aware about dad not declaring certain other incomes when applying for certain benefits.

Basically what happened is that someone came round to their place (when dad was still with us a few years ago) to help them fill in some benefits forms. I was dropping back dad's sander as I was decorating, and the person was there. I didn't stay, but returned a few days later for a natter and asked dad what the forms were (can't remember what they were) and he mentioned one form that I remember know was a means-tested form that was jointly signed with mum as a married couple. I asked him if he had declared all his private income and he said no, so I told him that they'll check up and bill him and mum with the money they owe, for receiving benefits they weren't entitled to. Mum was sat right beside me and had been from the start of the conversation. She looked at me and said, and I quote: "They'll won't find out if nobody tells them". She is now having to pay off a debt of tens of thousands.

Now, I do not quote things unless I can 110% remember what exactly the person said word for word. If I can't remember, I will not quote, but will give an accurate overview IYSWIM.

Roll on to my brother texting me to tell me all about the debt, so I told him that I hope mum get's it sorted, but to be complicit in getting benefit money they weren't entitled to is mum's fault. I quoted what mum had said to me, to which my brother text me saying that what I had quoted was a blatant lie. The thing is, if I had been talking about Joe Bloggs down the road, he would have said that Joe was an idiot and his DW was stupid for not checking up on bill payments. I asked him why it was different being mum rather than the guy Joe. He never answered that point (or any of the other points I made in a calm and measured tone), but instead became irate and started calling me a "Fucking joke and a layabout" and how mum has issues with me that I had "wrongly handled over the years".

The only issues I am aware of are those stemming from a cryptic FB post, that both me and youngest DB had discussed and sorted. Mum has given me some filthy looks over the years, and I have opened up plenty of opportunities to sort them out, but she has refused. AFAIC, she had her chance to discuss them and didn't bother opening up about them, so I'm not willing to sit down and discuss them now.

My youngest lovely DB was having an official 'moving in together' party last night and wanted all the family around, but I explained the circumstances as to why I wouldn't be there and that the night was about them and their new home. I didn't want to be there if my presence was going to cause upset to others and ruin DB and STBSIL's night. They both understood and I explained that younger brother may have a few too many and start an argument. I didn't want that, so dropped their present off, had a lovely chat and went home.

I'll have to finish the rest tomorrow as I'm knackered and need my bed. I've been very low this last while because of all the doubt that has crept into my mind, even though the only thing I've done is tell the truth, however unpalatable it may be. It's only tonight that I've felt able to come back on here and talk. BTW, if you've got this far with my 'woe is me' update LOL, then I have to thanks you for having the stamina to keep up

Anyway, thank you all for listening. You've all been a lovely, wonderful bunch of people

Before I go, I want to pass on these videos that can awaken some deep hurts from narc abuse. But they are worth watching as they are interesting.

Hi Snort,

I just wanted to say that the video was very illuminating. The secondary gaslighting is difficult because as you said in your post, the doubts creep in. Even after writing down everything that's happened over the years, even after the incident in the summer and the support I had on here, my basic assumption about myself tends to be that a) I'm in the wrong here b) I'm ungrateful c) I have 'anger issues' and can't let go of things, obviously because I love to be the victim .... and that generally I'm a person who is fundamentally not 'right', not ok.

There's a sense of shame and constant self-questioning which is really hard to shake off and to pick up on some earlier posts it also makes it difficult to be authentic with other people...because why would they want to really know someone like me? And obviously because some of the experiences that I've had have been outside of the norm, most people just don't understand or know how to respond.

It's not the same as gaslighting but recently I confided in a friend about the situation with my parents and how angry/upset I was feeling at the moment and how I'd made this (for me, enormously difficult) decision to put some distance between me and them, and one thing she said was "I think it would be good to aim to have a relationship with your parents where you take them for what they are, enjoy the positives and not let the negatives get to you."

She said some other supportive things but it kind of felt like I was having to really justify myself and that I was coming across as this drama queen. It was embarrassing in a way and comments like hers are undoubtedly well-meaning - she's a very lovely well-meaning person - but it just made me feel a bit shit really. Because on the surface it looks like good advice and who knows, I may even get to that stage with them but it's not really my priority at the moment and it's so frustrating when you do confide in someone and they just don't 'get it'. It sort of pings you back into feeling ashamed and self-doubting and all that stuff. I'm not someone who shares easily and maybe it's all in my head but sometimes I feel like if I do open up I'm committing a bit of a faux pas.

The thing is, I have no idea how to deal with this! Having no/low contact with my parents is difficult but simple in a way (apart from all the complications ), but how do I handle the fact that I've kind of made myself the black sheep of the family? I say this as someone who has always held back from doing anything to provoke disapproval. I'm stronger than I used to be but it does hurt. There are people in my family, and family friends whom I love, respect and have nothing but good childhood memories with particularly as when they were around, we my dad managed to behave like a normal people.

I haven't broached anything with them and honestly I don't want to, and I don't think it would be productive. Something about the thought of shattering their illusions feels a bit unkind and in any case I don't think my parents are evil or anything but I hate the thought that they must just think I've gone off the rails. After everything my parents have done for me, etc. Especially as I'm adopted - it's so easy to be cast in the role of the difficult child whom they tried to help and gave everything to, a private education and all the rest only to have it thrown back in their faces. It feels as if (and again this could be in my head) there is a really convincing alternative narrative here and I can't really fight it so it's just easier to back off. It makes me lonely and rather sad but I can't see any other way. These are people who go back a long way with my parents, my dad's friend from college who is my godfather etc. I don't know how to reach out so I lay low. There's just no way to make it all ok and that is just something I'm struggling with at the moment.

Sorry to hear about your Dad Snort .
That gaslighting concept is enlightening - my brother and mother both do this - my mother also gaslights her sister (who has MH problems) - she'll casually say something baiting and slightly barbed, watch her sister kick off then act all faux concerned and apologetic 'sorry everyone, I really didn't think that would upset her' when I know damn well she knew what she was doing. I was always being told 'you're too sensitive' or 'for goodness sake I didn't mean it like that' and would always question myself. I hate conflict because of it, it really stresses me out.

I would also like to add that I really empathise with what others have said about managing your own reactions. You know when you're just going along relatively happily and one of these incidents happen, whether or not it's something relatively 'small', it's just part and parcel of the whole thing and it's deeply upsetting. My stomach just feels horrible (in fact I often get an upset stomach), my brain goes crazy, adrenaline whizzing around, equilibrium completely gone! I HATE the fact that I can open my emails to pay a nursery bill, see an email like that from my sister and spend the rest of the evening in a state of impotent fury, self-doubt and general feelings of crapness. I just don't want it! Argh. I have no idea how to not let things get to me, I am too thin-skinned I suppose but it's also such a horrible thing to have your entire version of reality invalidated and your feelings deliberately trampled on by someone posing as a victim!

Magic I get those feeling regularly. For example I've blocked my brother on FB but I remember my mother saying she couldn't come and see DS1 for his seventh birthday. Later that day whilst posting photos of his party to her I see photos of her with my brother and his kids plastered everywhere! She'd driven down to see him and his kids on my son's birthday (knowing my brother the invitation date would not be a coincidence). However speaking to friends I often get 'well he wouldn't have remembered' or a vibe that I'm over-reacting in some way. Besides 'you're mother was always lovely when we were round'.

It's horrid isn't it. for you. And for Snort

Going to pop back in here. Life keeps getting way with me keeping up. It's all a bit shit at the moment with my parents. I keep doubting myself and what I've been through. My brother isn't talking to me because I'm not talking to my dad. My mother is taking every opportunity to make me feel guilty and crazy, as is her norm. I don't think she even knows what she's doing. I keep swinging between being full of rage and hysterically upset by it all.

Sorry to cut across the convo here (I'll come back and post properly tomorrow hopefully) but I just wanted to tell you guys about my day. We were at PIL's 50th anniversary lunch today. PILs are OKish - FIL's got narc tendencies and DH is a classic lost child but for short bursts it's OK. It's BiL who we have the issue with, or rather, who has the issue with us.
Last time DH spoke to him was 7 years ago. DH was trying to arrange to visit him (different country) and he was like "don't bother, coming to visit just means you're inviting yourself to stay at my house", so DH didn't see him, and that was almost the last contact. He tried phoning him once and his first question was "where did you get this phone number" so then DH didn't contact him at all any more. When DH talked about this with his mum and dad, the impression was given that it was something to do with me , and the fact that I'd been friends with BIL's ex girlfriend but hadn't treated her very well. What actually happened with me and BIL's ex is that DH and I visited her a couple of times when we lived in the same town, and then when we moved out the country we wrote to each other (she didn't do facebook or email) but she was writing to me every couple of days and I couldn't keep that up so I started stretching out the length of time between my letters until about 6 months after we left I stopped writing altogether.
I went about for years feeling guilty about this until last year when I told my mother to GTF I realised I was also not interested in taking responsibility for my BIL's lack of relationship with my DH because I might not have been that good a friend to his ex 10 years ago. I just thought, that is not something I would let get in the way of my relationship with my brother. I think I'm being scapegoated here. And I stopped feeling guilty about it. BIL had often been a pain in the arse when we saw him - he'd a habit of turning up when DH had done something cool, and then just not really saying or doing anything about it - and so my settled feelings on it were that I don't really give a shit and don't think there's much I could do about it even if I did care.
Fast forward to today. We go in and there's all the family and then someone who looks vaguely like DH but older, and a woman who I don't recognise but who recognises me. It's BIL and his ex-gf. We say hello to them but we're sat at different tables, and so we don't speak to them. Then I'm in the toilets and the ex comes in but we don't get to have the traditional ladies' toilets full and frank exchange of views because a) my two kids and my two nieces are in there too, making a palaver of washing their hands and b) she sticks to speaking to me in German which we never have before. I stumble through an apology for not recognising her and we have a tiny bot of smalltalk where she gives the impression she's trying not to give too much away, and then that's it. We're occupied with the kids, and then before we know it they're leaving - BIL says goodbye to DH but not me (and they're from a culture where it's incredibly important to say goodbye to everyone and shake them by the hand) and the ex says goodbye to neither of us, so I suppose that's us snubbed. The end, right?

It's very weird. BIL has chosen to go NC with DH and with me, and I'm like, I don't know what it is we've done, because they've never told us. Oh OK, I guess there is some of my behaviour that was less than perfect, but it seems like far too trivial a thing to break contact over. I don't have a problem with them, and I'm sorry if I upset them about anything, but I don't really see what it was that warranted going NC.
That's basically what our batshit crazy parents say though, isn't it? But it's true! In my case. You can only take my word for it but I live in my own head and I know it's true - what I've just said about BiL is exactly what my mother would say about me, but I know in my own head that on the one hand my mother was a deeply abusive and scary parent while I was a bit of a shite friend to someone I didn't know for very long. It's not the same. I suppose what I can take from this is that genuinely abusive nutters like my mother are very good at stealing the clothes of people who're really estranged for no particular reason. And the other thing that stood out for me from today was that I don't bear either BIL or his ex very much ill will. I don't think I'd really want to be friends, as there's obviously something motivating them and I don't think that a handshake and a couple of beers will affect that really, but I was genuinely sad that it's turned out this way. BiL is one of those people who's always been outside the mainstream, always looking for something, and for that reason he often gave better chat than the rest of the family, who're solidly bourgeois although nice enough. And my dad (who died a few years ago) met him and liked him. So it is sad. But for me it was mostly a relief, just to feel sad, do you know what I mean? Not bitter, not angry. These days I sometimes feel like the bitterness is just leaching out of me, that I might actually be recovering, somehow.
DH is a bit more robust in his opinions, says he doesn't care either way. I think he does care, but we're slowly starting to learn between the two of us that it doesn't matter what you think, how unfair it feels or whatever - if someone's determined not to like you, there's not a hell of a lot you can do about it. I think giving up on a relationship with my mother has freed us to stop worrying about other people's opinions generally, good and bad.

Good morning ladies and gents (I wonder where Serious Steve has got to. Would love him to come back and chat with us about what he has been through lately), time for a cuppa methinks , so go ahead folks and grab one. Oh and thanks you so much for your condolences. Much appreciated .

Magic, I can see what you mean about it not being quite gaslighting. In a nutshell, gaslighting is where the narc tells you or does something and then is adamant that they didn't do/say that. In the video, what Richard is describing is the people you trust and the professionals making you distrust your sense of reality due to them probably not believing what happened to you.

On another note, his friend Sam Vaknin is also very good and his videos are very informing. I heard that Sam is a narc, has acknowledged as such and is working very hard to be a better person to others. Just something I heard that may or may not be true. Both Sam, Richard and Sam's wife Lidija are doing a seminar in Liverpool in December on the 3rd and 4th, at Liverpool Hope University - Hope Park Campus. It's a Narcissism and CPTSD recovery seminar.

This video is interesting. It allows Lidija to tell her story of being married to a narc and how she deals wit him.

Lidija and Sam]]

Today I am writing down many incidents that have happened with my parents over the years for my counsellor.

One of the insights this is bringing is something that might help you magic, which is why I mention it. I have realised that one of the ways that my family worked when I was little was to set up very different standards for myself and for my sister. So, for example, my mother would emphasize to me how important swimming was and I would absolutely bust a gut trying to be good at it to win her approval (and I really mean this - I never even enjoyed it, but I got up at 5am three times a week to go train). Then my sister point blank refused to go swimming, aged five, because she didn't like the feel of the strange floor mats. And my mother absolutely fawned over this - because in refusing to go, my sister had proven that she was far more like my mother (who also disliked swimming) than I was and thus more "her child". I can remember suddenly realising aged about 9 how wrong I'd got it all, watching my sister being cuddled for refusing to do the thing that I'd been struggling so hard to do well to get the same attention. This is just one example of very, very many that I could give you - trivial in its own right, but making a definite pattern when considered together.

So when you say that you were the anxious, high-achieving child and your sister was more rebellious, is it possible that what was going on was two very different sets of standards, so that however hard you tried you could never win?

I have the same issue with my sibling regarding competition. She has effectively monopolised ALL of the resources of the family for 20 years - and I do mean everything. There has been no help or support whatsoever for me, not even crumbs left on that table of practical, emotional and financial help. My parents let me rot in a series of unhealthy, shitty, unheated flats when I had insufficient money for food as a PhD student, while ensuring at that same time that my sister had all of the creature comforts life could offer - and I do mean ALL. When I asked them to act as guarantors on a mortgage to help me, they refused (despite the fact that I'm definitely the one who is financially the most responsible) yet they have helped my sister to be mortgage-free in her mid 30s. When I was sleeping in my car and showering at work during my divorce and I asked to sleep at their house for a while, they wouldn't help me because 'we're already looking after your sister'.

But the most hurtful thing is the way that my sister is constantly reinforcing this dynamic of exclusion - she is responsible for airing and repeating on a nearly daily basis all of the narratives that stress how different and unacceptable I am within the family (most of which involve my failed bids to win parental approval), in order to ensure that she continues to dominate. She sneers and mocks me in public, and I just sit there and take it. And a lot of this involves telling my parents that I've said that the family is dysfunctional, that I've claimed violence that absolutely happened. Despite the fact that I have had literally no care or love from my parents for 2 whole decades, despite the fact that I have not asked for help for at least a decade since the guarantor debacle, I am still the "bad child". I've just never been able to figure out the REAL standards by which I am always being judged, but have always stupidly followed what I was told to do with the blind loyalty of a dumb dog.

toomuch - what a strange weekend for you and your family! I hope you are OK. It can be so hard when you don't know why a behaviour has happened. But it sounds very positive that you've reached a place of sadness without bitterness. I do think that sounds like healing.

introverted - I know EXACTLY what you mean about those comments about being 'oversensitive'. I get the same. It is just a way of invalidating your perspective via your emotions. In response to your question about how to stop caring, I don't know the answer. My counsellor says that it's about acknowledging the child in you that is hurting. I am not sure that her method is going to work for me, though (I don't mean it won't work, just that I am uncertain). Because I know quite well that the behaviour of my family has been outrageous, discriminatory and unreasonable. I am in no rational doubt of that. But the fact that they simply don't give a shit doesn't stop hurting just because I understand that what happened was wrong. It's how to get past that, isn't it?

murmuration - Of course I remember your posts, you write so vividly and the advice you gave me was superb!! But are you sure that you are 'overly upset' with your father? Imagine for a second that you're in your father's shoes and you forget/ignore someone's request not to mention a subject that triggers anxiety and negative thoughts for them. How would you expect them to react? Would you regard the level of upset that you are showing as unreasonable? If not, why do you expect so much more of yourself than other people?

Hi, I hope you don't mind mejumping in but would reasonably appreciate some advice. My sister and I are nc. It's her choice and she has set the terms. I tried to organize therapy but it didn't work.

Anyway we went nc 18months ago, as I say she set the terms, but has broken her terms a couple of times. I saw this as an olive branch, but it seemed not. I suspect that although we had been told do not phone, send cards, letters etc if her child wanted to contact us it's been allowed from their end. Before the nc, when contact was limited, we sent a postcard we were informed not to do it again to which we were respectful.

On my birthday, I got a lovely card from her children, nothing from her. Whilst I can't be certain I believe her children have been told that they are not seeing me or their cousin's because I don't want to, even though I have asked to see them and agreed for playdays not involving me (husband would supervise along with bil), again this has been rejected. I doubt her children are aware of the attempts I have made.

What do I do 're her b'day coming up? Do I send a card from us all? Do I send a card from the kids? Or do I get kids to write and send a card ?(this invariably will result in lots of questions 're party / cake / when they will see their cousin's) of course we won't see them and cause them upset again!!!! as the kids are still little they don't understand and frankly, I can't forgive the fact that she has gone nc between all the kids.
What do you suggest?
Thank you

Snort I'm really sorry to hear about your dad. I forget your old username but I remember you talking about this. Forgive me if this comes off as insensitive, but the one positive about his death is that the time when you had to deal with your crazy mother in order to see him is now over. You and him, that was the important thing, and you did that brilliantly.

mum has issues with me that I had "wrongly handled over the years"
Ah, the cry of the dysfunctional family member. It's another form of "you know what she's like". Some people in the family need to be lied to to keep the peace, while the rest of us are expected to take in good spirit any bullshit that comes our way.
What comes off your post in waves is your efforts to understand the situation and understand what it was you did wrong. You didn't do anything wrong. They need a scapegoat, and you're it. shove says it much more eloquently but it bears repeating.
Also that's a great video. It's so heartening to see all these people standing up in their different ways, naming this, describing this. It's so validating. And now we have a name for that thing when someone goes on AIBU to talk about the latest outrage from an abusive parent and all the well meaning people with nice parents go "I'm sure she didn't mean it that way".

Magic
"I think it would be good to aim to have a relationship with your parents where you take them for what they are, enjoy the positives and not let the negatives get to you."
There's someone who just does not get it. I did that for 20 years, and it was a total waste of time. I realised pretty young that there was something not right with her, and from then on I "managed" her - I asked her for nothing, told her nothing controversial about my life, and when she was nasty or hurtful I refused to rise to the bait. At birthdays and Christmas I'd get her well thought out presents based around the things I knew she liked. We ruined more than half of our Christmases by inviting her or by going there, we tried to foster a (very shallow) relationship between her and our kids, I supported her practically and emotionally when my dad was dying of cancer.
She hated it. It wasn't what she wanted from me. She didn't want trips out with us, nice Christmas meals, gifts, days out with the kids. She wanted back her so-called problematic little girl, sad, confused, clumsy. She was angry, god, I've never met someone so angry, and I never gave her any reason to be angry at me, so what the hell good was I?
I think some of them are just so fucked up that (outside of them suddenly deciding they need help, and trying to recover) the only way we can bring joy into their lives is if we suffer. And even with the less sick ones, there's a certain level of mental robustness we need to have, and we're not best placed to have that. Let other people take on the fun task of managing their emotions, if they want to do that. I can think of at least 50 things off the top of my head that are a better use of my time. (I didn't used to think like that. It was part of my managing, overachieving, good girl persona to think I was up to the task of managing my mother. It was only when she started going after my kids that I changed my mind, and even then I was still being a good girl and putting my kids ahead of my mother. It's taken a long while to get to the point where I'm happy not to be all that good; averagely good, I look out for myself just like other people do, and that's actually fine.)

shove I'm away back upthread but that thing about you going to watch the Brits at your friend's house was giving me the chills. It's awful. What did you think at the time - did you believe that she genuinely didn't remember giving you permission? Or did you know she was messing with your head? I don't know which is the scarier, tbh.
It sounds like with your sister you're in the double bind that if you try and contradict her narrative of you being the weird one, she then takes that as further "proof" that you're awkward and argumentative. Reading between the lines I get the impression of you as a sweet little kid, doing slightly odd stuff for attention, and I wish we could go back and give little shove a cuddle and tell her she's absolutely great as she is, and if the people who're supposed to live her can't see that, that's their fault and not hers.

Hi snort. You are right to look after yourself. I notice that tendancy in myself, to feel guilty for anything I do that is self-care. It just seems so selfish. But like you I remember that I'm not just doing it for me, I'm doing it for people around me, particularly DD. But even beyond that, remember you are important (and it's easier for me to say that to someone else than to think it for myself :) ), and you don't need that sort of justification to take care of yourself. Everyone is worthy of caring, and if you don't care for yourself, how can you expect others to?

Sorry to hear about your father . Just sounds like a complete mess with your Mum. It sounds like you're getting pulled into things, though. Can you apply some of the responses from the Toxic Parents book? Like "sorry to hear you feel that way", "that's an interesting perspective", and so on? (sorry, don't exactly remember them, but I did recently finish reading the book - there was a section about de-escalation and bunch of examples of aggressive statements and bland counter-answers). And do you think the family thinks you may have ratted them out? That could explain some of the hostility.

Interesting video! Others in the sidebar look interesting too, but I don't have an hour at the moment to watch the most interestingly titled one... But nice to know the term 'secondary gaslighting'. I think that is what goes on with friends, and with well-meaning posters on MN who just can't comprehend the irrational type of interactions that can happen in dysfunctional families.

That 'defending' yourself thing is so familiar, magic. I felt like that with my friend in that vignette I mentioned above about fathers and questions about work (and very prescient that was, given this weekend!). Although she supported me through my complete breakdown 20 years ago, and was twigged enough to reasonably quickly accede that it was sad that my father couldn't respond like a normal human. And assuming you do want to maintain a relationship with your parents, your friend might be right, in the long run - but that's an important distinction. Right now, in the heat of individuation, it's not something you can do. I know the conversation is in the past now, but if something similar occurs again might you be able to respond along the lines of "That's my eventual goal. To get to that point I need to heal and I can't do that if I'm continually drawn back into self-defeating patterns of behaviour through interactions with them. I need space to be able to find myself so I can deal with them from a strong foundation." That way you're not defending your experiences of how bad they are, but instead are agreeing yet re-stating your decision to put some distance in place, IYSWIM?

My thought would be you don't have to explain yourself to your extended family, although I say that as someone who doesn't really have much interaction with the rest of my family. Is it possible to just do your own thing, or are people actually going to ask, "Hey, why haven't you been visiting your parents as much?" I must say it has not once occurred to me to question one of my cousins during a period my mother reported they were not speaking to their mother (this changes so often I can't keep track - and like my father, I've acknowledged that while my aunt is a fun aunt, I am so glad she's not my mother - her quirkiness is fine as long as she's not in control of me!). If it's just a question of what they might think, I doubt actually talking to them would help, and would only create another set of interactions for you to worry about. If it's the fact that you miss them, I'd just interact with them like normal and don't bring it up. I guess the hard bit is if you see them at family gatherings which you now avoid because of your parents?

toomuch, that is just bizarre. And woah, ex-GF was writing you every couple of days? Like, via post? With stamps and everything? Was she an ex at that point? If she was, that's so weird I can barely comprehend it. And even if she wasn't, it is far too needy. You have the right to be friends with whom you want, and it really shouldn't have anything to do with your DH's relationship with his brother! That smacks very strongly of the 'emotional labour' being pushed onto women thing that I've recently become aware of.

Thanks, shove. I guess I mean 'overly upset' in the sense that I'm more upset than I want to be. It only drains energy from me, and it's energy I can't afford to lose. By now it's pretty clear my parents won't change, so the only way I can handle things is to manage my own behaviour. And what's causing the biggest problem for me is my own emotional reactions and the energy that goes along with them. Although I'm now thinking the thing to do is perhaps to try talking to them on another day than Saturday. Friday might work, although that means my father won't get to see DD so much, as he'll be at work (time difference means evening call is a midday to them). But that could be a bonus for me... although my mother is even more frustrating without my father in the conversation. Hmm.

And I was irrationally upset with DH, as I know he was just trying to do the 'solve' thing that is his go-to response and responded in an appropriately embarrassed manner when I reminded him I'd just recently asked my father to not ask :) It's just that it was such an echo of what had just happened with my father that he got some of the the peripheral rage.

And I'd intended to say something about the Toxic Parent book I just finished reading and ask some questions, but again I've made such a long post that I had better move on!

murmuration - I suppose what I'm questioning is your idea that the anger is 'irrational'. I don't think it is - I think it sounds very, very rational. In the sense that there is a clear reason for you feeling that way. I understand what you mean about peripheral rage/misdirected anger at your DH, but it's also understandable that you are sensitive in the areas where your DP's behaviour makes you raw. I also think that it can be really important for partners to understand that sometimes it's not solutions to problems that are needed, but simply a hug and some validation/understanding.

toomuch - I honestly don't know whether she knew it was gaslighting. I think in many ways, the truth didn't matter to her so much as establishing her control over me at any price. She would always say that the most devastating behaviour - including things that would be classified as sexual assault in a court of law - came from the heavy responsibilities she had as a martyr parent to a difficult daughter.