"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Magic

Your family of origin are all dysfunctional; your father has simply continued to abuse you all to this very day and your mother has further enabled this in him by turning a blind eye. Your sister has become a carbon copy of her own dysfunctional parents. Why would you at all want her to see your son, your most precious of resources after the ways she has treated you?

I would not worry about your sister at all; her threats are mere bluster and she does not have a leg to stand on. Grandparents also in the UK have no automatic rights of access to see their grandchildren so she (not being a grandparent) has no chance whatsoever.

Re your comment:-
"By the way my partner has taken him to see them every one to two weeks for visits, so that doesn't fly in any case"

He takes your son to see your parents?. Why on earth is he doing that?. That now needs to cease. These people were not good parents to you and remain abusive, they are thus more likely than not to be awful grandparent models to your son. Such people like your parents as well never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

You do not need them at all in either yours or yours son's life. I would further block them from any and all means of contacting you, no contact is precisely that. You do not need any of them in your lives.

murmuration - I am really glad you chose to post. I've had advice from you before, on other threads, and you speak with such great kindness and wisdom to others who are suffering, even though your own experience is so difficult.

I think I remember you saying that clothes are a major issue for your mother as well (or have I got that wrong)? It is like she is trying to care for your physical health because she doesn't really know how to show love in any other way. I am not excusing it or saying that it is healthy - I completely understand that it is a burden. (I have a mother who thinks that being anxious is a way of showing love! And that anxiety often comes out in a series of pretty undermining comments that voice every inner fear I have myself!) Sometimes what is difficult about behaviour like that is that it's an inverted form of care: the person realises that there is a care deficit, but instead of putting the other person centre stage, they put their own fears and frustrations there, and those are so deafening there is no 'room' for you to breathe.

Your father sounds difficult, to say the least - I wonder how much of your mother's MH can be ascribed to his control of her, and her desire to escape in some way - through you perhaps?

Hi Atilla,
Thank you. I have decided to keep the contact between my parents and ds for now, I do agree that my family is dysfunctional but at least up to now the relationship ds has with them is very positive and I feel limited supervised contact is ok. They know that any bad behaviour on their part would mean that stops but I don't think it's likely because they don't want to lose him and despite everything they are capable of being really lovely which is why I don't want my son to suddenly lose the relationship. I am on high alert for anything that feels wrong though and so is my partner. If anything feels wrong ds will be whisked away very quickly and that will be that.

I don't know about 'no contact means no contact', at the moment I am in very limited contact and that seems appropriate unless further incidents happen.

My sister has shot herself in the foot completely, I'm determined she won't see ds now and if that seems vindictive so be it. Threatening legal and social service involvement is a point of no return for me. Ds doesn't ask about her in any case and won't really think anything of it.

Hi Magic

re your comment:-
"Thank you. I have decided to keep the contact between my parents and ds for now, I do agree that my family is dysfunctional but at least up to now the relationship ds has with them is very positive and I feel limited supervised contact is ok. They know that any bad behaviour on their part would mean that stops but I don't think it's likely because they don't want to lose him and despite everything they are capable of being really lovely which is why I don't want my son to suddenly lose the relationship. I am on high alert for anything that feels wrong though and so is my partner".

Neither are good enough reasons really for them to keep on seeing your son and your partner. Abusive people as well can be "lovely" sometimes but that nice/nasty cycle is a continuous one. Would you have tolerated this from a friend?. No?. Family are really not binding and your parents are no different. Am certain you are aware of what is happening but you are not present for these visits and is he really aware of the abusive dynamics here?. Probably not particularly if he has come from an emotionally healthy family himself. You do not know fully what is being said; they could well go onto use your child to get further back at you. That will all happen right under your partner's nose and in front of him. How do you also explain to your son that you as his mum is never present at these visits?. They also were not good parents to you (and that is an understatement) so why expose your son to them now?. I would seriously look into cutting back the number of visits made in terms anyway of frequency if you cannot bring yourselves to stop all visits. Such people like your parents rarely if ever change. Infact they do not change.

Do you think you are still very much in a FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) state with regards to your parents?.

I do agree with you re your sister; she has truly shot herself in the foot here. She may well drag your parents into that argument with you though so tread very carefully in any future dealings with your parents re her. Your parents could well take her side.

magic - your father sounds very much like my mother, and I have experienced similar problems with a sibling who was treated very, very differently and who has problems imagining what effect both the actions and the difference. I think one important insight for me was realising that in a dysfunctional family where there is scapegoating to some extent, everybody else tends to benefit from that, including siblings. It is a mistake to think that they can step far outside of that relation, because their own ego and interests aren't aligned with acknowledging the truth of your experience. This can actually be more difficult than dealing with the parents who set up the dynamic, because it always feels like you are hovering on the edge of a more sympathetic relationship, but it will never be fulfilled.

I think it's really important for people who haven't really been loved in families to have a legitimating place outside of those dynamics. It's like you have to ground your self outside of all of the normal places from which people in healthy families draw strength. Counselling can be tremendous in helping you to do this, if you can access help that way??

Hi Attila,

Thank you. I do understand what you're saying absolutely, but I don't think anything will happen under my partner's nose. He is very aware of the whole issue and the visits are limited. As ds grows older I will have to decide what to tell him but for now it's ok I think. I don't really see them using him to get back at me either. I think their control and influence is very much diminished since what happened over the summer and they know that. I will consider what you said about cutting down the visits, I think that would be wise. Ds has been used to seeing them a lot but I think it's now a case of gradually phasing it out to the point where they may see him every couple of months - which is pretty average for a lot of grandparents anyway.

The fear obligation and guilt thing is still alive and well and of course my sister is trying her best to put pressure on me with all three, but since she has the subtlety of a sledgehammer it's (relatively) easy to see for what it is. Still very unpleasant to be on the receiving end of. I have blocked her on whatsapp and facebook and she's now transferred to texting and emailing so I will block her there as well, because even if I don't respond it's still exhausting and upsetting even getting those types of messages.

As far as the rest of it goes I just have to keep my distance I think and keep reminding myself it's not normal and it's not my fault, and I have no obligation to get sucked back into it all. I do miss them still in a way but I'm so much clearer in my own mind and just have to keep going really.

My son is the chink in my armour in a sense and I do realise that but I have thought it through and I don't want to cut that relationship off completely, even though it would make things simpler. I will definitely reconsider if there's any hint of dysfunctional crap going on regarding him and I plan to maintain extremely firm boundaries.

Hi Magic,

The visits by him and your son certainly need to become more limited; its every couple of weeks currently. That can be cut down; also in another year or so your son will start school anyway and that can be used as another reason to further lessen visiting.

I would read the website entitled "out of the fog" as that could help you as well. Although their direct influence over you is lessened because you do not see them, your son and partner see them so they do still have some power and control over you all. They also know that your son is your chink in your armour.

As for your DS always tell him age appropriate truth.

I think you also need to examine further for your own self why you do not want to cut them off even though you state it would be simpler. This may be also in part due to your own FOG.

Typical interaction today from my family:

DSis: Dad just video called me to show off his amazing new spade!
Me: (who actually bought the £70 spade as a birthday present from me and DH, but who hasn't been called) Oh, does he like it?

DSis: Yes, he loves it.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry sometimes!!

Magic your sister's being really awful - that's really crap, to have the same thing now playing out with another family member. It sounds like you've got her number but in case it's any use I offer my tool for dealing with shit like this - if I get upsetting criticism/attacks I say to myself "is this how someone on my side would approach this with me?" You know, like, is the criticism coming from a good place? It just short circuits all the justifying of my own behaviour. The buggers always attack in places where you're unsure of yourself, I find.

murmuration that sounds like a really hard situation. Your mum sounds a bit like my dad - he was the enabler to my mum's narcissist, and when he got Alzheimer's it just seemed like an extension of the sort of always slightly dissociated haze he lived in. Your mum sounds quite childlike - like she wants you to be able to make all her worries go away. The only technique I found of any use for that sort of thing is being a "grey rock" - just being really boring, never share any worries with them, no strong opinions, and keep your news to the most sort of bland and uncontroversial stuff. It makes for a superficial but at least pleasant relationship.
shove hello! I know you from the gardening boards! I think I sort of knew you were a Stately Homer too but sad to see you here anyway.
(By the way my autumn fruiting raspberries are going like the clappers - I've had a good handful off them every 1-2 days for the last 2 weeks and they're still going strong!)

toomuch - waves I am SO jealous of your rasps - mine have a virus and have been crappy. I am raspberry-deprived. I ordered some new canes that are due to arrive in November, so hopefully next year I will be in your shoes!!

I like your idea of asking how someone on your side would see things. I have something similar, which is "How would an impartial observer see this?" But I think your way is better, because it assumes that there ought to be care and love, that you have a right to it.

I find that really helpful in stabilising and justifying my viewpoint. But where I am really struggling at the moment is not so much in judging whether the situation is fair/equal/just/right or not (it clearly isn't) but in dealing with the emotional consequences of that. There seems to be a kind of assumption, often, that realising that something is unfair at a cerebral level will inevitably produce a breakthrough emotionally. I am not finding that to be the case. It actually hurts more. I'm hoping my counsellor will help me with insights about this, but I am also quite frightened that counselling may rely on this kind of model of "Oh, here's a revelation in your understanding, therefore you must be emotionally fixed".

I'm starting to realise just how angry I am about a lot of things that have happened. I don't really understand how any parent could act the way mine did, or how they could continue to be so utterly crap and emotionless towards me and so supportive and present for my sister. (I had a thread about their reaction to the news that I was infertile recently, that got picked up by the Daily Mail, and part of me was dreading them seeing it, but part of me also just didn't care. They'd probably have drawn a load of solace from the comments anyway which were all about how I was a spoiled brat for expecting emotional support of any kind).

shove I remember that one - feel bad I didn't comment now. It had all the apologists as usual going "maybe they felt really really bad for you and that's why they didn't say anything" and you think, well first of all, it didn't happen to them, it happened to the OP, so maybe if they find it hard to know what to say they should just fucking try? And then also, how hard is it to say "I'm really sorry"? Which is to say, I'm really sorry. I hope this doesn't make you feel worse but I am really sad about that because you're one of those people the kindness just shines out of you, and kids would be lucky to have you as a mum.

Oh nooo, please don't feel bad!! We can't all comment on every thread, we'd be run ragged!

I don't really blame the people who said that they meant well, because I didn't really give any context. As far as anyone knew reading it, my family were normally supportive and this was an aberration. So that reaction wasn't silly in the circumstances - I just didn't want to give away too much identifying detail regarding background (hoping that these posts are so hidden that the connection isn't obvious to most!)

You brought a lump to my throat (in a good way) with your kind words, so thank you, it means a lot. I am trying to be a kinder, better person and to get past the anger and let it go!!

I think you are spot on about the childlike nature of much of this behaviour. It doesn't excuse it in any way, but I wonder how many of these enabling/narcissistic parents were victims themselves of terrible parenting. I know my mother was - DGM had terrible judgement.

I suppose given how much we ourselves struggle to recognise the dysfunction in our families, it shouldn't be a surprise when other people outside the situation can't see it. But it does frustrate me - there's regularly posts on AIBU like yours, where the person's come on and went "I found this upsetting about my family, anybody with me" and like the first 20 responses are people with nice parents going "if that was my mother she'd not mean anything by it" and I know my response is just the same hair trigger, in the opposite direction - "my mother's bloody awful, and if she said it, it would have been calculated to hurt" but who the hell posts in AIBU about troublesome family interactions with someone who's 99% of the time OK? Do you know what I mean?

On your post above I know what you mean about therapy, about the intellectual-level breakthrough - I wonder about the sort of baby animal attachment stuff that we never got - can you ever really get over that? Can that lack of love ever be made up for? I've got no problems these days finding beauty in life, but interacting with people is hard, it remains hard, and I have to the whole time read my own responses back to myself, work out where I'm being too weird. It's exhausting. I'd like it to flow, once, you know?

toomuch - you put that point about dysfunction SO well. I honestly don't think it's possible for someone who has lacked that love from parents to understand someone who has. Don't get me wrong - people can be really empathetic and lovely in all kinds of ways. But to live with it and its consequences day in and out is something different - and it's often the fact that apparently trivial things really hurt that is the difference. And that brings me to your second, brilliant point - I think you're absolutely right that there are no 'isolated incidents' in dysfunctional families. There is a wider dynamic and there is a longer narrative and even the smallest interactions are inextricably intertwined with both. I think you hear it often in AIBU, where someone has reached the end of their tether over something small, yet is told that they are blowing it out of all proportion, because those from more functional backgrounds simply can't understand the long tail of these things.

I don't know the answer to your question about that baby animal attachment stuff. I wish I did, it preoccupies too much of my thinking time at the moment.

I think you interact with people brilliantly, though. Obviously, we're on an internet forum but you seem anything but weird to me - you are warm, kind and lovely. I would never think that you agonised over your posts unless you had told me so, but perhaps that is because (due to your self-editing) you write really well so it appears to flow from the outside. You're very nuanced and incredibly precise about what you are saying (and precision is something I really value in writing, yet it is so hard to achieve). Your style is vivid and very beautiful and real as a result. Not many people can do that on the page. Even if it results from a process of doubting yourself, the result has been that you have a skill that others don't have.

Do you self-edit in reality, when you are speaking? I do, constantly. I start saying something, then think I sound stupid and start editing it mid-sentence. I think I can come across as weird and vague and confused as a result, but it's because I feel paralysed sometimes by the pressure of 'getting it right' for the other person, and (if I am totally honest) the fear that I will get it wrong and be rejected in some way. Where I can 'flow' (as you poetically put it) is when people come to me for emotional support, and cry and feel sad, which happens a lot. I try to make them feel better and do OK at that because I am supporting them and they are centre-stage. But I am rubbish at the more 'normal' interactions or any of the stuff where you need to assume an intimacy and a friendship that goes both ways. I don't know why this is, but I think part of it is that I don't feel I can trust my reactions and I am often afraid that someone will hurt me, to the point that I'll avoid asking people whether they want to go out somewhere in case they say no.

Bloody hell, how wrong could that sentence be?! It is supposed to say 'I honestly don't think it's possible for someone who has had that love from parents to understand someone who has lacked it'. But I guess the lack of recognition probably does run the other way as well. I can't imagine what it's like to wake up and NOT feel the weight of that early rejection.

Thank you so much - I'm blushing now! So typical that in contrast to our awful families you've managed to notice and be lovely about something I really care about. I do edit myself, a lot, when I'm writing on mumsnet as well as everything else - I'm a scientist/statistician by trade and I'm used to trying to be precise. I also worked for a while writing on a government publication which I won't name because I shouldn't, and also because my boss there was the biggest narcissist I've ever met - worse than my mother! It would take me half an hour to write her a three line email sometimes...

Yeah I self edit in reality as well. I'm worse with women than with men, I think because of my past with my mother - with blokes I still people please, but I'm more sure I'm doing it right. It's exhausting, and so I sort of avoid being friends with people. I mean now I live abroad in the middle of nowhere so I never see anyone anyways, but before that. I also am more comfortable in the helping role - or when there's a group of people, and there's not that sort of one to one focus.

It's funny, I already got the feeling when I spoke to you on the gardening threads that you might be from a dysfunctional background. Something about the way you come across - really lovely, really positive about stuff, and I saw a couple of times there were arguments about to break out and you sort of smoothed it over. Your enthusiasm for what you're doing, and how you include people. It felt like you'd probably had to work, to get to that - that you appreciate it, you really like it when people get along. It's odd, isn't it?

It's an odd mixture for me, the feeling of the lack of love. I feel like I got some of that love from my dad, who was a careless bloody parent and really was more of a big brother than anything else - he should never have had kids, he wasn't up for the responsibility - but despite that did show love, he actually liked me, and I think that's why I've always preferred the company of blokes/boys since I was any age. But my mother was my primary carer and there was so much time it was just me and her, and it's the fear, the feeling of having no home, that's what I think really fucked me up. Sometimes I remember times when I was small - I think up to a certain age it wasn't that bad, it suddenly got worse when I was about 8, and also I think the damage is cumulative - so I can sort of remember being little and not having much to worry about. But imagine having a mum who you could go to, as you got older? Sometimes there'd be a teacher or someone else's mum and I'd think, that's what that must be like. Imagine going home to her every day. I think I stopped looking for that mother figure quite early though and started to fancy boys quite early (10? 11?) in a sort of "I must find somebody, love will save me and transform my life" really unhealthy way. A whole other disaster that, although I was incredibly lucky with the people I dated.

Murmuration. My dads a narcissist too. My mum the enabler.
Not sure how they started out but 50 years on he absolutely dictates her reality and her emotional intelligence is ZERO.
She takes refuge in tutoring maths and shopping... they're both fucked in the head. (She says remaining totally calm 😉).

Shove I was just thinking about that idea of wanting validation about events that on the surface seem trivial.

When someone's horrible to me my first emotion is guilt, and a feeling of being a horrible and awful person. Part of it is "I must have done something awful to warrant them being nasty back" but there's also just a feeling of being a bad, ugly person just for being annoyed at them. That's it - guilt and disgust at myself for being angry with them, for being hurt. Validation from impartial outside observers helps. It's not even that I want sympathy, I just want to know that I'm not a bad person for being hurt. Does that make sense?

toomuch - I'm running around to get out to counselling this morning, and I need time to read and re-read your post and write you a more thoughtful reply than I could do currently. Something really strange is happening that has only ever happened to me with literature before: you are describing to me with such vividness things that are very close to my own thoughts and experiences, feelings that I have had for a long time and felt incredibly isolated by, as if there were a gulf between me and other people. Not only that, but you are bringing a greater degree of clarity than I have on some of those things (the link to early relationships, for instance), so it is also revelatory. Will be back later with some thoughts that are not simply me being flabbergasted but very grateful!

I have just stumbled across this thread and it speaks to me on so many levels. My mother is a narcissist - everything has always been about her - every achievement was never good enough - she had always done better, achieved more etc. She was always passive aggressive, walking around mumbling about all she had to do - I would follow her around anxiously as a child asking if I could help and she would just snap 'it's FINE. I'll just do it. Like I do EVERYTHING'. I felt I walked on eggshells all the time. If I cried she would sneer at me. I would look for mother figures everywhere and wish in my room at night that they were my mother and how wonderful it would be. Every time I speak to her she will only continue conversation if I pay her compliments while telling her about my life; if I stop her responses reduce to 'mmm' and then she tells me she is 'really busy helping x, y and z' and hangs up. She hasn't called me in 9 years and I hate that I know.
My brother is the golden child despite running away from home, having no qualifications and getting his gf pregnant aged 26 (I am a classic anxious over-achiever). Parents recently bought him a 3 bed house outright and a new car (wrote previous 2 off) but refused to lend me £1000 so I could complete on my house before having DS2. MIL did and since my Mum found out she has been really sneering about her and trying to make me speak badly about her. We go every Christmas there as she gets upset if she doesn't have her 'family Christmas' (although spends the entire time with a martyr complex) but I'm not going this year - DH, MIL and kids will have it here. I'm dreading telling her - I will be the bitch in the scenario whatever happens

That was a ramble sorry - my brother got his gf pregnant aged 16 that should say. Nothing wrong with that obviously, but if that was me the reaction would have been completely different (and indeed it was when I got pregnant aged 20 - she cried and begged me to have an abortion).

Someone just took a job off me, so I have more time than I thought! Hooray!

Ahhh, a statistician! I am in awe - maths and stats were never, ever my strong suit. But it sounds like you have a really artistic side to you as well - the way you write isn't just dryly exact at all, it's precise in the sense of capturing something experiential that is very qualitative. (I recently read a book by Robert Macfarlane called The Old Ways, which is about the description of landscape, and something he insists on over and over again is the artistic value of similar kinds of precision in writing about place. But I think you could extend that to so many other areas of writing as well. Maybe that is what the essence of literariness actually is).

Sorry to hear about your boss. With your previous experience with your mother, it must have been an incredibly bruising experience to deal with someone that insecure again, and it must have brought up all kinds of old patterns of thinking and behaviour. I have sometimes wondered if people who are narcissistic are drawn to those who are former victims of it, as if they can sense a kind of familiarity with delivering the sort of praise and reinforcement that they require. I know I've had a succession of female bosses who have been similar types of people in need of constant reinforcement, though not as extreme as the person you are describing, who sounds off the scale.

I'm worried about what you say about your living in the middle of nowhere. I guess I'm quite isolated, but I'm in a city and it does help me to get outside (when I manage it). I think the thoughts and feelings prey on my mind more when I am alone and don't have anything to take me out of myself. However, I realise this may just be me and that other people might get that same stimulus from beautiful countryside, or whatever. I do hope you are OK where you are. Feeling lonely is part of the unfair burden of pasts like yours, but it is something that has been placed on you, not something that you in any way 'deserve'. You are clearly a lovely and VERY empathetic person.

Wrt people pleasing: I think it is a very ingrained thing. But for me, it's also something from which I occasionally try to escape because I have been rubbish at setting boundaries, get put-upon to a stupid extent, and then feel narked off. So I think I oscillate between a kind of politeness (especially with women) that is probably a shade too formal for friendly intimacy because I am terrified both of saying the wrong thing or of appearing vulnerable, and a sort of failed attempt at assertiveness that often comes over simply as bluntness (I am trying to work on this). This is not something I like about myself or that I am proud of, but I can be quite argumentative on an intellectual level in writing, too - and stubborn! One of my major life goals is to get these things more in balance.

I can really relate to what you say about your mother, and even the timeline you describe. I think one of THE most damaging things in life is feeling like you aren't liked by a parent. My mother made no bones about verbalising her dislike - 'I love you but I don't LIKE you', and variants of it 'If I were facing Sophie's Choice, I'd do what any mother would do - reach for the youngest and most vulnerable'... because I was invulnerable steel at the age of 9?!. It was as I headed towards puberty that this became more pronounced, as it became clearer that she wouldn't be able to control every aspect of my life. That did NOT, however, stop her giving it a really good go with every tool from timetabling every moment of my day, prohibiting me from ever going out, to sleep and food deprivation, to torrents of verbal abuse. She would regularly just lose it completely and hit me with palms, fists, any object she had to hand. She has never taken any responsibility for any of this - "You made me do it" is the classic line. This helps to explain why she is incredibly resistant to the idea that emotions are something you can actually control.

She had enormous problems with my nascent sexuality, and many of the worst things she said were around this: I was a 'whore' for wanting to wear short skirts as a teen like the other girls, a 'slut' for wearing lipstick, and she'd constantly make prurient comments about boyfriends - stuff that was really over the line, and not simply the usual adult teasing. Unpleasant.

One of the most hurtful things is what introvertedbunny identifies - the difference between my experience and my sister's. In my case, it wasn't that my mother couldn't be supportive, because she has been colossally so to my sister - a very similar situation to you introverted's, with both financial and practical support. And a VERY similar situation with the emotional support: if I try to create an opportunity for her to offer it, I also get that disinterested "hmmmm" (she thinks she is some kind of martyr for 'letting me vent' while saying 'hmmm' in a neutral and completely bloody unsupportive way!!). And it doesn't matter how enormous the thing is - even during my divorce she was like that. Yet my sister has the slightest crisis at work, and she is able to express suffocating levels of care and anxiety, at the opposite end of the scale.

So it was that there was something about me that meant she couldn't give me that love in the same way. That's quite a difficult stigma to carry. Every day, I feel that here must be something wrong with me, something unnatural about me, that caused this to be the case.

Like you too much, I was interested in boys young. Really young, in fact - I was attracted to boys in my class when I was 6. In high school, I was bullied to an average extent (I think all kids are), but it felt positively nice alongside the more sophisticated verbal abuse I faced at home. I still saw it - and the kind of approval I could get from men as friends and as partners - as a refuge. I ended up in a long relationship with a high school sweetheart, to whom I was completely unsuited, for about 15 years until I was in my late 20s. Even though I got out eventually (and I deeply regret all the time I wasted), I think I still look for too much of my selfhood in romantic relationships.

I think the most touching statement in your post, for me, though, was that about 'feeling at home'. I have great difficulties with this as well, and they continue into the present. I think this is partly why I am more attached to outdoor spaces than indoor ones. Home was honestly a prison growing up - I was so utterly miserable, I used to count the days until I could leave. That placelessness, combined with the rootlessness that comes with not feeling that you are secure in the love of the people who are supposed to love you unconditionally, creates a lot of anxiety and instability right at your core. I sometimes find it very difficult to know how to restabilise it - I guess that's partly why I'm going to counselling now.

God this is long! Sorry! So I will stop there. But thank you so much for sharing with me, and thank you for bothering to read this far as well. I can be over-enthusiastic sometimes, but it is so rare for me to find someone who understands.

shove typical I've been trying to reply all day and eventually had to wait till everyone else has gone to bed...

I actually in addition to the professional writing have been writing fanfiction for about 10 years. (I will take to my grave what the fandom is ) That thing about specificity in what you describe makes sense to me, because in the early days my characters had all sorts of problems with where to put their hands, and how to get across rooms, and all that sort of thing, till I realised it's as much about what you leave out as what you put in. The rhythm's as important as anything else, even in sort of fairly factual stuff like this. (The work in the government department was awesome for that actually, because it was a report that at most was about 30 paragraphs long, and within that about 80% of it was in a form of words that didn't change from month to month, so the entire expression of opinion was in like maybe 20-30 sentences, and they were scrutinised and quoted in the press. Those sentences were so tight. It was a great discpline.)

I have sometimes wondered if people who are narcissistic are drawn to those who are former victims of it

I'm pretty sure they can smell it off us a mile away. When I first started reading about NPD I identified like four people in my life other than my mother who had made things really difficult for me. And my first thought was to doubt it, like every problem looks like a nail when you have a hammer - but no, they really were. They're hierarchical animals. They know who they (think they) can bully. None of them ever got much joy out of me, but they had a good go. I think I must just give off "victim of narcissist" vibes.

Aw, thanks for worrying about me! It has been quite lonely, being abroad, and I miss work and people and just all the chat and stuff but it's OK. I have a couple of friends here and one thing that is great is that the locals show no mercy in speaking rapid German you no matter how shit your German so I at least get to practice. We used to live in Switzerland where on the surface it's more comfortable for foreigners because of the loads of foreigners but it's impossible to integrate because English is everywhere.

On the people pleasing, do you find yourself being nice with people right up to the point where you can't be bothered with them any more? That's what I do. I don't think I've had a single friendship survive its first argument. I don't bring my authentic self to my friendships, or very slowly anyway, and so when that veneer of surface niceness is scratched, there's often not much else there sadly. I'm hoping that might get better. It'll need to - I've only got two friends here, so I can't afford to just ditch them if they once do something annoying...

That sounds really tough with your mother. I don't have any brothers or sisters but what you guys say on here about sibling relationships makes me kind of glad. Your mother picked you as a scapegoat, that's clear. It scares the crap out of me. My mother, before we told her to take a hike, had her golden child and her scapegoat picked out between my girls - they were only 3, but I could see the differing treatment as plain as day. It's abhorrent. I find one of my kids easier to deal with than the other (DD2, my mother's scapegoat, probably unsurprisingly) but if anything I overcompensate with the more difficult one. That's what normal people do, you know, you feel a bit bad and try and make it up to the difficult one. Plus, the more difficult kids are the ones who need the most support. Not that you were even difficult, probably. Who knows? Trying to get an insight into the mind of a batshit crazy parent is just like staring into the abyss.

On the boy stuff, it's very very similar. I had a long distance - I guess lets call it relationship - from I was 15 till I was 21, basically till I moved out of my mum and dad's. I still quite can't believe that I stayed at my parent's for my first degree but I guess I believed my mother's line about how nasty and dangerous the real world was... we were both a bit messed up me and him, and it was this sort of desperate clinging to each other that I think was better than nothing, at that time, but it needed to end. A couple of years after we split up I basically went NC with him because he didn't seem to be moving on (he's married and stuff now, he did sort his head out eventually). I wish we'd been able to be friends. We are all so doubtful of happiness, all so prepared to make do with the tiniest amount.
My mother was desperately jealous of us. I remember thinking that actually at the time. She'd go off her nut about something every time he wrote me a letter, regular as clockwork. Then when I was sitting my exams she invited him to stay for a week in the middle of my exams and then created a big stink about something apparently cheeky he'd said and told me I had to split up with him. In the middle of my exams. Fuck, she really didn't like me did she? It's amazing when you read it back. Because I don't know about yours but mine was on the whole time about how much she loved me, and I used to think she was just a damaged person who didn't know how to love - but I think about stuff like that I think, nah, you clearly knew exactly what you were up to.

I'm also the same with being at home. I'm having to get used to it now - we're fairly out of the way here - but I still have odd things, like I wear outdoor shoes basically until I am in bed - it's a hangover from childhood when I used to go out and play in all weathers to get out of the house. The other thing I find hard is that if I'm in the house and there's another adult there and we're not in the same room I feel fearful - I expect that while I'm not looking they've gone in a mood with me. It's exhausting.

introverted I will be the bitch in the scenario whatever happens yep, so you might as well do what you like. It sounds like your MIL is a good sort, that's really good.

I'm still thinking about that thing where people with batshit parents post in AIBU. Have any of you guys read that bit in Will I ever Be Good Enough about "the collapse"? I've lost the bloody book somewhere but I remember something along the lines of there being a collapse of the ego, a real sort of catastrophic panicky response, whenever we fight with people. I wish I could find the thing. It described perfectly what I feel like when someone has a go at me.

toomuch - I had a job for a bit writing national guidance for the NHS. I had done quite a bit of editing before, but I have never had any job where every single word really mattered. If you didn't absolutely seal up the document, you were opening yourself to all kinds of quite serious problems (for patients, as well as legally). Most people wouldn't have believed how difficult, lengthy and convoluted it was. So I totally understand about your 'tight sentences'. It does give you a certain kind of training, doesn't it?! I love the fact that you write fanfic too!! (Don't worry, I won't push you to reveal any more! But I think it's lovely).

And yes, I really recognise what you say about being pushed and pushed and then having a breaking point. I became aware this was a real problem a few years ago, and I have worked quite hard to try to be firmer and more assertive with boundaries, which has really helped. A major breakthrough for me was something so simple - realising that being aggressive and being assertive are completely different, and that actually the former avoids the need for the latter. I still need loads of practice at being good at it, but I have got loads better and it has helped my relationships with other people to be more healthy and two-way.

Where I'm not doing so well is with that 'authentic self' stuff that you mention. I sometimes don't even know what my authentic self is, apart from panic and fear at the thought of social rejection.

I'm horrified to read about your Mum's undermining behaviour with your first boyfriend. The overwhelming impression I get from your description is of chaotic unpredictability: someone who is unreasonably unstable, and who deliberately creates further instability. And also someone who couldn't bear that the attention wasn't constantly on her - who literally couldn't let things wait for a couple of weeks, in recognition of your exams. That's not just a lack of empathy or compassion, it's a kind of active and disruptive series of choices.

I recognise some similarities with my mother, though for her it was less about her being centre-stage, and far more about her being in control. I can remember a huge argument when I was about 14, when I had repeatedly mentioned a social event that really mattered to me, and checked over and over again that I was allowed to go (nothing big, just going to a friend's house to watch the Brit Awards!!) Then, at the last minute, she decided to pretend I'd never raised it. She literally kept me in my room, standing against the door for 5-6 hours, yelling at me and trying to get me to admit that I hadn't ever said anything about it and that her version was correct. I absolutely refused point blank, even when she became violent, but I wasn't going to back down. I knew that if I did, it would be letting go of my whole version of reality and it would put my mental health at risk. She used to do this repeatedly - at the time, I didn't know the term 'gaslighting' but it was the worst, most coercive form of it. I honestly think that yelling at someone for those kinds of lengths of time is a bit like a kind of torture.

I really don't like conflict now - and really irrational, unreasonable, unpredictable, angry people give me the willies - but I am able to deal with it at low levels with people I know, partly because of the fact that it was part of my life for so long. (It is much harder with acquaintances, because of the whole people-pleasing/politeness thing).

An idea did occur to me. My husband had bullying parents, and he has similar anxieties around conflict to you. They were really, really quite bad for a while, to the point that when PIL were visiting and being loud and trying to get their own way all the time, he would be physically unwell (literally vomiting) and unable to get out of bed. He went to a counsellor for help about 5 years ago, and it was transformative. In about 12 sessions, he became really calm and collected. It was like there was a kind of 'block' in his life about conflict because of the past, and he just needed to grow through it and find a place where he felt comfortable asserting himself. It sounds like a magical transformation, doesn't it? i couldn't believe it myself - it felt way too good to be true. But it happened, and because he was also calmer at work, he was able to move on with his career (which meant that the counselling sessions paid for themselves many times over). I wonder if a similar approach might take the edge off it for you? It is not fair that you are having to live with the legacy of fear, and it sounds like such a burden for you. The thing about worrying what someone who is there but not immediately present is thinking sounds exhausting.

I'm still worried about your isolation. I bet it's beautiful where you are, and I bet you also deal with being in a culturally different place, with a different language, with more strength than the vast majority of people would because of what you've been through. But I can also imagine that those things could increase your sense of distance from other people, and that's tough to handle when you have experienced the kind of abuse that you have. (Sometimes I worry that I am, in some way, "marked out" as unnatural and unfit for society, which is silly and irrational, but the legacy of the past - I wonder sometimes if we seek out places and positions on the periphery, consciously or unconsciously?).

I am sending you a very warm hug virtually to say that you are NOT ALONE!