"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

That should have said: "... he didn't want our mum to be fined for my truanting". It reads as if we have seperate mums how I originally wrote it.

Welcome, stuck!

Jannerite,
All of these people can't be acting like this because they're all the same, surely!

Oh yes they can. Your siblings grew up in the same highly abusive situation as you did and the dysfunction has come out in them as bullying. And as for the friends/boyfriend - they can smell it off you, bullies. They can. When you get a bit recovered - and you will - you'll find yourself starting to attract different, nicer people into your world. They are out there. I seem to still end up friends with people from dysfunctional families, but it's the scapegoats and lost children I attract these days, not the bullies). A lot of it's the numbers game as well - to make friends you need to meet a lot of people and then stay in touch with the ones you like, not just the ones who like you, that's not enough. You've got the triple whammy of really needing friends because there's no love in your childhood, and then probably having few opportunities to meet and make friends because your parents will have either not facilitated that, or actively sabotaged it - and finally, you probably don't take red flags in people's behaviour as seriously as other people would, so you don't ditch the bullies fast enough, you end up becoming friends with them.

I'd a boyfriend at 15. I was lucky, he was a scapegoat like me. We stayed together for 6 years, utterly dependent on each other.

I don't think it's ridiculous that you couldn't cope in a job. I had agoraphobia as a teenager. I walked out of a job once because I had a colleague with NPD who was making my life a misery (I didn't know it had a name at that time). It gets easier if you're away from your abusers.

Atilla's right - you should talk to NAPAC and Shelter. I've just had a look on the Shelter website and they have a scheme where you can get temporary accomodation basically in someone's spare room. That would be a starting point. Are you under the care of a mental health professional? If your anxiety is so bad that you can't work, you should be getting help, you might be able to get disability benefits.

The world would not be better off without you. You've never done anyone any harm, despite the abuse you experienced. You're a nice person and you deserve more out of life than this.

I would urge you to contact NAPAC and I reiterate that what happened to you was and is not your fault. The fault lies entirely with the people who abused you.

Do read toomuchtooold's post of Sun 05-Feb-17 at 09:26, particularly her third paragraph.

Toomuchtooold - Thank you for your reply! Yeah I guess I do feel the same about the no contact, I do feel so much happier knowing that I don't have to listen to all her put downs and sarcastic comments all the time, dreading her phoning me in the evening. I think that may just make me feel a little guilty too but I think that is just down to the total confusion I feel seeing as I am now a mum myself. I couldn't imagine ever being that way with my children no matter how they turn out. I love them more than anything or anyone in the world and I'm so looking forward to seeing them growing up and eventually having their own lives and families and blessing me with grandchildren. I guess that's why this situation is so horrible, I just can't understand what she's thinking when she's ignoring us all like this!? Total madness but as you said I am a lot happier now so I am going to continue with my life and see if she ever wants to come back into it. Doubt it very much though!! I really feel for my little sister though, she still lives with her and she's only 13 and a right mouthy little madam!! My mum goes on at her a lot more than she ever had to with me at that age and I just worry that my mum and all her fucked up thinking will have a negative impact on my sister as she is a teenager and end up messing her up. And as I don't really see her anymore there is no way I can help her!! Maybe I should just tell my mum to fuck off and demand to see my sister and spend time with her - I know she loves being an auntie and my boys both love her lots so I know she would jump at the chance to see us. I just know that my mum will see that as an insult to her and probably make my sisters life hell for it. I will have to think and see what I can do, thank you for your comments though you've made me feel a lot better and given me some things to consider!!

Although my siblings and I grew up in the same household, with the same parents, unfortunately the dynamics in which we grew up with varied significantly. My sister was, has and still is very much my parents favoured child. My brother has always been adored by our mum (I think it's because he's her only son, and later on in life gave her her much desired grandchildren) but had the threatening aspect from our dad still, but maybe not as severe because my brother wasn't a cowering mess.
Unfortunately for me, I was conceived in the middle of my parents marriage - as opposed to my siblings, who were conceived a few years after they got married. My mum has always said that she always suspected my dad had multiple affairs. I have been convinced for about a year, or two, that I was the baby that was conceived to try to fix a failing marriage, and that's why my mum has so much ill feelings towards me because I didn't. My dad still had an affair, and still left, although 10 years after it started.

What you say makes a lot of sense, toomuchtooold. No, I'm not under the care of a mental health professional. My mum tried to get me seen by many growing up because she thought I wasn't right in the head, and I've developed a deep dislike of them ever since.

Toomuchtooold's post made a lot of sense.
I'm not sure I have it in me to phone NAPAC and talk about it all, Atilla. When I write it down it sounds horrible, but when I say it out loud it sounds trivial and like something that doesn't even matter.

I should probably stop talking about myself now though.

Don't stop talking about yourself. These issues are not at all trivial. I know from experience how hard it is to take up space after an abusive childhood but please believe me when I say that you are welcome to come to this forum and talk about whatever you want and we will try to help or at least listen.

Help ! I need some advice. DM has decided she wants to come and visit me. I know that this is because I have been emotionally removed and LC with her since my solo visit 3 weeks ago. She abused me verbally - to the extent that I had a really bad emotional flashback. I got so agitated I thought my heart was going to burst from my chest. Once she got the desired result, she wanted ‘a kiss’ - just another game. In the 40+ years since I left home she has only visited me 3 times - just to show how totally uninteresting and unimportant I am. [I’d even offered to drive hundreds of miles to pick her up and take her back home].She’s feeling vulnerable at the moment, so her controlling is constant. Her helpers will be low on the ground then, so I’m expected to look after her.
I found this out from the family Whassap this morning. I’ve been using this as a way of being LC so that I do not have to do is answer the phone to her - group contact only. I’d already decided that I would not visit in future without my DH - because when alone she can’t control the abuse. Has also been trying to give me money – but it can’t buy you love! Poison chalice.
I don't know what to do. Should I not reply at all? Make an excuse (but these get found out)? Put on the forum that following my last visit we both know that this would not be a good idea? Just say no? In the past I have tried only writing, but she ignored me. I hoped that I could maintain LC by using the Whassap to avoid family ructions, but it feels as though she is trying to push this, so I may not have that choice. She is elderly – maybe she’s trying to foster an image of us as one big happy, loving family – for others – or herself. Maybe she does have some insight? One DS says she says she was depressed when I was born – and for the whole of my life presumably. I do realise that she is a product of her own abusive parenting, and some women of her generation must have felt trapped having children. No excuse though. And I was such a ‘good’ girl. And not a bad servant either.
I can’t ask my family. That’s my ‘room 101’ fear, as Richard Grannon would say. Even as the outsider I would be unhappy to rock the boat unless/until necessary. Advice please !!

If you can't handle a visit say no! Just put yourself first. What is the decision you can manage?

By that I mean, what is the least painful solution for you with the least grief and guilt? Not see her? Excuse? Ignore? Do what you need for your own health

I hope you don't mind me saying, Make, that your thinking around your mother sounds quite unboundaried. You're trying to anticipate what she's thinking and feeling, and how she'll react to whatever you do. This is natural given your history (abuse leads to hypervigilance and lack of healthy boundaries, you have to feel whatever they feel) but stopping thinking that way will help you deal with this.

In other words - it's not your problem what she thinks. Do like Still says and take the action that makes things easiest for you, and don't worry too much about what she does as a result. She's an adult, she can choose her own responses.

I'll be honest, if I were you I would say no to the visit. Will the visit bring anyone joy? Will you reconnect? Or will the only joy of the visit be hers when she manages to wind you up and create drama? If so, that's not something that you should feel obliged to facilitate.

I agree with the above. You need to do what's best for you, Make. You need to think of your own health, and needs. If that means just saying no, then no it is. It's going to be hard. Be prepared, but stick to your guns.

Unfortunately, I've just made a mistake.. My mum, I should've known, agreed to have my nephew this weekend, and then just tried to disappear for the next 7+ hours, leaving me to look after a 6 month baby that I've spent every weekend for 5 months looking after, ever since he was 1 or 2 weeks old. I told her that this wasn't fair, and that if she wanted him here she should look after him (I don't mind helping, but I don't want to do all of the work). I don't think she was expecting that, and neither was I to be honest. She went outside, cancelled her plans, came back in and told me how I should be happy that she's now cancelled her plans, because I'm too selfish to do this one thing and that her friends are now upset. She was moody, she was abrupt and she made me feel guilty.

I didn't realise you were the taken advantage of auntie Jannerite! I saw your thread.

Good on you for establishing a boundary! Don't feel guilty, feel proud of yourself. There's a thread going just now about grey rocking - how to guard what you say and do to provide an abusive relative with as little ammo as possible. It might be useful to you. One step at a time

Thank you . I've just texted to say No. I don't mind having any advice - it is all correct and it helps just to get a reply. Also anything to look into. I was being unboundaried, toomuch. Just went into the old panicky reactive state. A couple of days on, I know that I don't want her here - it's MY safe place - and no, I'm not expecting any miraculous change of heart - from her, or me. She doesn't want me to change, that's all. I'm worried as well that one day I'll blow - and then I'll be as bad as her. Beware the worm that turns !
The worst thing at the moment is that I don't want to lose the rest of the family. We're all screwed up - I know some of them haven't been very supportive or communicative, but then we're all screwed up. It's not their fault? I thought that if I could change then ......? It feels too early/ a bad time to try to explain things. Dearie me.
Will try to find that grey rock thread soon.
Thanks again

Yep, toomuchtooold, I'm that Jannerite, unfortunately.

Make click on the blue part on toomuchtooold's post. It should take you straight to the grey rock thread.

The one thing that I hate, above all else, is being spoken about as if I'm not there - "Where's Jannerite?" "Does/Doesn't Jannerite want..?" "Is Jannerite..?" etc..- even if I'm in the room at the time. My mum and sister, who I live with, do it all of the time. The "where's Jannerite?" annoys me specifically. My mum always asks my sister even though she knows full well I'll be in the living room. I'm not allowed to go to bed until she goes to bed - or else I have her ranting for at least a day that I did it because I was sulking, being childish, and at the time "what am I suppose to do now"? - even if I was tired. It's just not worth the hassle. She's even walked into my bedroom before at 10:30pm to wake me up to go back downstairs with her as she hates sitting downstairs alone. I'm not even sure why you'd talk about somebody as if they're not there though, even when they are.

I just happened to find this thread, thought the title was interesting.

Well my story is a bit boring I guess. I am sue my parents loved me much and still do, but they were "different". We owned no TV, I was not allowed to read glossy magazines. When I was a kid I had to dress smart. I was never allowed to curse.
My parents are from "old families" and if I had grown up around other kids just as me and probably would not have caused any problems... but my parents did not have enough money to pay boarding school for all of us and so they made the decision to pay it just for the boys but not for the girls. So I went to a state school and everybody thought I was odd and I had a tough time. When I was a teen I rebelled and just behaved like the worst of ghetto girls. Later I regretted it because I had denied myself and my family.

I have no issues with my parents, because they always meant well.
I am afraid that I might end up like them. Either that or the other extreme. I want my son to be happy and not grow up different, yet I think that some of the things his friends watch on TV are trashy, some of the foods their parents give them are unhealthy and sometimes I just don't knowwhat to do.

The son I was talking about is four and in daycare, were he meets a lot of children from families different from ours and that makes it difficult for me, because I am dreadfully afraid he might end up an outsider.

My other children are younger which makes it easier, but with this son I have to make decisions. Friday he came home and used a curse word. Well, I told him it was a bad word. He told me other children at his daycare are using it.

Lavinia I was dropping my kids off at kindergarten once a few months ago and a little kid in their class went "look toomuch! Look!" and then gave me the double middle finger (is there a name for that? It feels like it needs a name.) He's a sweet kid and he'll be in the same class as my kids through school (we live in a small town). His family situation's not the most stable, and I just look at this lovely wee person and think christ I hope we're not going to spend the next 10-15 years watching it all go wrong for you.

Regarding your parents and turning into them, I think it is difficult if you've had an odd childhood of any sort because you sort of look at your parenting "instincts" or go-to responses and you sort of question them all. So it's hard to know how to strike a balance between permissiveness and strictness. FWIW I think being friends with people will be more important to your kids than always eating healthily or avoiding trash TV - and you can have your own standards in your own house and let your kids learn that other people do things differently. Expose them to other people, other environments, and let them learn to take the differences in their stride. E.g. with the swearwords I find my kids (4 and a bit) respond well to having the whole sort of context explained to them, that mummy and daddy occasionally use that word in the house in the heat of an impassioned rant but if they use that word in front of their kindergarten teacher or granny, or if they start using it for everything, they'll probably get in trouble. I know that's quite permissive, it basically gives them leave to swear - but they will swear whether I allow them or not, we both know that.

I read a book called Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids a couple of years ago, you might enjoy it. The guy's an economist who argues (using proper research) that upbringing (outside of actual abuse) has less effect on kids than we might like, and so we should all try less hard (and have more kids, if we want). It might put your mind at rest a bit, as it sounds like you're worried about getting everything right?

Jannerite that is odd as anything. Your mother is so dependent on you. Remember that, though! You may think of yourself as being not that strong right now but actually you're the strong one, you withstand the abuse, you're trying to get your head straight - while your mother can't really bear to be alone in a room with herself.

@Toomuchtooold: Thank you very much for your kind answer. I am feeling silly for having written here. I had a fever and was on cough syrup and feeling a bit like drunk. The title of the thread caught my eye. I did I bit of reading and someone one here somewhere wrote about attending a state school after she was first public school educated. So I wrote here... but I was not abused by my parents. So probably not the right thread for me.

However I like your answer a lot. Thanks for sharing your approach and I will be reading the book.

Hi ladies, I'm a lurker but this thread caught my eye. Can I join in?
I'm in my late 20s with 4 DC and am finding past issues from my childhood and teenaged years are resurfacing and I'm struggling to cope with it.

I'll be honest in that I don't remember a lot of my childhood, my dad had MH problems and self medicated with drugs. He was prone to flip out and start trashing up the house, screaming and headbutting walls.
He left my mum for OW when I was 12 and my mum spent the next 7yrs likely depressed and struggling to bring up 3 kids on her own. He was NC for 10yrs, no maintenance or anything.
I was always the brunt of 'family jokes' ridiculed for my weight, my uncles wife nicknamed me the ballerining hippo at about 7yrs old.

I spent my early teenaged years doing drugs, drinking and having inappropriate relationships with adults. My mum was aware of this and allowed it to continue, ignoring it or telling me I was making stupid choices but at no point did she try to intervene. I put myself in some really dangerous situations, I remember being held down by my 19yr old boyfriend at 14 so he could have sex with me.

I've tried to talk to my mum about it, she just shifts the blame to my dad or me. Yesterday I tried to broach it with her by saying I'm looking at getting some therapy, I'm on antidepressants but that doesn't stop the memories, her reply was 'well I always told you that everything you do will come back to haunt you one day' I feel so let down by her, I was a child who needed love and support to cope with my childhood and my parents marriage breaking up and instead she just wallowed in self pity and ignored me.

My dad has apologised and we're trying to rebuild our relationship but he still struggles with his MH, however he's been clean for 3yrs.

I just feel lost, I don't know where to go or what to do. I can't have sex with my OH of 10yrs at the moment as all I remember are the rapes and abuse from my teens, I'm terrified I will turn into my dad and make my young DCs lives a misery

That's very long sorry for the essay! And now I'm worried I've hugely over shared

marmitemadness. You haven't overshared at all. Who else can you tell it to ? In theory it should be your family, but as we know this isn't always the case. Who knows why your DM won't share properly ? People don't like saying that they haven't behaved as well as they could [or couldn't ?] have done. All you can do is work on yourself and to try to turn your own life around.
I've found that coming on here has been a major help for me. Just knowing that other people have been through similar stuff - plus being able to offload when needed is a huge first step ! And it makes you start thinking in a different way. To start questioning things that you'd always [ been expected to] take on board . Put up and shut up was the message.
Carry on with this - you're already behaving in a different way than your parents did because you're aware - so you'll do your best - and that's all any of us can do, don't you think ?

@makealist1
True, I can't talk about it to my mum, she just shifts blame or tells me she tried as hard as she could.
I think a lot of this has come forward in my mind because we recently decided to deregister our eldest 2 from school for many various reasons, but one of these included persistent bullying of DS1 and the schools inability to acknowledge or stop it.
I was very badly bullied throughout my whole school life and my parents just let it continue.
I can't understand why you would allow it to continue and that seemed to start my mind wondering to all the others things they put me through.

I'm considering looking for a therapist but it's not something we can really afford at the moment.

Hello marmite! Welcome .
Christ on a bike you've been through a lot. Your mother must have had a lot on her plate OK but it doesn't excuse the unkindness or the lack of care. At 14 you were looking for the love that was missing from home, you were a child. You were failed twice over.

It sounds like maybe your father's been able to apologise because of the progress he's made in his own recovery but your mother's clinging to the idea that she, being wronged, can't have done anything wrong.

In your post you went from "not sleeping with your OH" to "turning into your dad". That sounds like catastrophic thinking, pretty much par for the course, but if you can spot it for what it is you can acknowledge that you're not your dad.
How is your OH with everything? With 4 kids you guys would have a demanding life even without the effects of your childhood abuse and neglect to cope with.

Have you seen the NAPAC website? They have a helpline, they sound quite good.

@toomuchtooold

I haven't seen the website, I'll check it out tonight when DCs are asleep, thank you.

My OHs ok, he can be a lazy bugger and we argue about why he hasn't washed up but that's it. He's the only one who's been there through thick and thin and we got together at 16 so he must be a good'un.

I try really hard to remind myself that I'm not my dad. It doesn't help that my mum has always told me that I'm just like him temper wise but I'm very quick to lose my cool and I have been a royal cunt at times to OH and the kids through my anger.

He sounds like a good one .

You probably do this already but one tip for helping your kids recover if you're prone to angry outbursts is simply to apologise. I had a therapist who said to me the most damaging thing about losing it with your kids is that they may feel like they deserved it and lose self-esteem as a result, and that if you apologise, that undoes a lot of the damage.