"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi peeps,

So, under another name, I've been outed. I guess this is where my contribution on Mumsnet has to end - there's enough going on and causing stress/illness without having to worry each time I post. It's either stop completely, or draw up a very esoteric name. I think my writing style, rather than name, has rumbled me really.

Sigh, more crap on top of loads of crap :( any thoughts?

By outed, do you mean someone IRL has found you on here? Or that someone has connected different user names together? Is this user name safe still?

It would be a shame for you to leave here, how about a conscious shift in style? Maybe make all sentences much longer, with commas instead of full stops?

Sorry if that isn't helpful, I haven't really grasped the complexities of user names and identity on MN.

Oh no steve, I worry constantly about this!

I hope they've not connected the dots to this username, it would be a shame for you to lose the support from here.

As pp said can you change your style slightly so you are harder to reconise? I tend to change little facts and write slightly differently than I would in RL although I'm not sure if it works? for you

This might be a bit of a radical suggestion but I've been thinking of it for a while and since Steve is having issues it might be the time to mention it... would any of you fancy us setting up some sort of private group? It would take away the danger of being outed. (I'm aware that I'm fairly identifiable now, as I've never name changed) It could run parallel to this thread which would always be needed for newbies anyway.

What do you all think? Would you have any interest in a private group?

What annoys, and disappoints, me most is anyone who knows me knows the issues I face with family, and with my health. That they would then out me on here frustrates and hurts.

I could say "fuck it" and continue, but I really, really shouldn't have to.

Hi, other than setting boundaries, going LC /NC, self-care, does anyone have any particular suggestions for getting over a narc childhood? Thanks

steve sorry you've been outed. It's something I worry about and have left out identifying information or just not posted sometimes as I don't want to be recognised. Just wanted to say thanks for the post on how damage done in childhood can affect your health as an adult. I found it helpful and will be getting the book you mentioned.
toomuch I would definitely be interested in a private group. Although I don't post here much, I've found it so helpful especially knowing that I'm not alone.

You're welcome Sleepy.

Things are just really tough at the moment, potential significant health issues, we have genetic tests due in March. My entire family is blanking me and my DW. Loads of passive aggressive behaviour. Am ready to just say fuck it. Wish could move miles away, Australia, New Zealand would be a good shout... so many years of this crap from them,am fucking sick if it.

As for being outed, it's a pain in the ass and I have a very good idea who it was. Think I will continue posting, shall make another nn for the other threads I post in. Why should some idiot impact on what I write here.

I have therapy on Thursday, it's been really, really tough over Xmas, especially with my birthday and mother stepping up her attack on me. Like life isn't hard enough, stuck in bed all the time in loads of pain, the slightest usage of muscles, say doctors will render me sleeping for two days...

Take care all of you, you've all been brill welcoming me here and providing fantastic support and advice. It really means so much to me. Shall continue posting :)

I'm glad you are staying!

I .think a private group in principle is a good idea, and I could supply the tech skills to set it up.

That said, these idiots tend to disappear after having yjekr five minutes of needling. It's a difficult call to make.

Hi, new to Mumsnet. Joined especially to join in here. I will post more sometime - I've been reading this thread avidly, and watching the Richard Gannon videos. Talk about an eye opener [ as he says, you can simultaneously have 'seen' - but also [ chosen ?] 'not to see' what was going on]. I'm not that young. Catch 22 - wish I'd realised years ago and gone LC - but lost contact with my family maybe by doing so - or stayed in contact, not wanting to throw the babies out with the bathwater ? PS I am the 'lost child' in our family.

I just wanted to say that I'm glad Steve is staying . To leave means that the outer has won. Stay strong.

I learned yesterday that flying monkeys [ or people who 'out' others ?] can be the unlikeliest people. When you read stuff, sometimes it sounds as though they will be the people who support the [ elderly narc DM in my case], or the disbelievers - but actually they can be just people who are afraid that altering the dysfunctional dynamics might make things worse for them. Oh, the guilt ! Gives me a headache.

I also think that you're never too old to change. The effects of abuse seem to exaggerate and embed over time if not addressed [as far as I can tell from observation]. My attempts to cope with the stuff I knew, but didn't want to know, have had had too many repercussions over time on my DS, DH and others so it's time to start being upfront. maybe a catalyst even ?[ that might be a bit hopeful]

Just had a horrible thought that my siblings might see me as a flying monkey...
I'm the 'stuck in the middle trying to keep the peace, always trying to explain the other person's point of view sibling...'

Just wanted to say that there is huge value in keeping this public. For people like me who are still struggling to put it into words (the nice/horrible/guilt switches make it pretty tricky!) this is a fab resource.

Just wanted to tell you guys about this Meditation & Mindfulness course I'm doing. Healthy sceptic but thought I'd give it a go. It's really helping!
Big huge nasty narc rage from my F over a year ago. No counselling but I feel I've worked a good way through it. NC with both my parents now after many reasonable efforts to communicate.
Anyway the course is really helping to clear the fog, all the inner voices that go round and round, questioning yourself ... enabling happiness in the moment.
Has anyone else tried similar.

I was considering something similar fc301 I've been having CBT which has helped a lot but I feel like I'm hitting a wall now with my anxiety levels still very severe I think something like mindfulness could help with my anxiety which has it's very deep seated roots in my childhood.

I also agree with keeping this public I lurked for years before posting (under a different nn) I still tend to lurk if I feel I've nothing to add going private would take away a lot of helpful posts although I'm more nervous about posting since the fail lifted a thread out of relationships.

Yes I think it could. There a couple of people in the group with anxiety issues and seeing marked improvement after a couple of sessions.
I don't know much about CBT. What does it involve?

It seems to be mostly realising what you are doing and how it feeds the anxiety kind of like the mechanics of it.

So I do a lot of post analysis of conversations during which I convince myself that I'm a complete twat, I'm working on stopping the cycle of analysis and also looking rationally at the evidence of why I'm a twat. Usually it's just my own negative self talk and I've not actually done or said anything remotely negative.

There are various similar techniques but I just don't think it is working now I'm using the techniques but it's having no affect on my anxiety.

I've changed therapist which I don't think helps he's an older man and I just don't think he understands that I don't want to go to baby group because I find the thought of sitting in a room talking about other people's kids toilet habits excruciating without the social anxiety on top. The made a bit of a face when I said I only liked my kid

I like the idea of a private group because it would be easier for some people to share details that are perhaps identifying, but it would be a real shame if it took away from the main thread, which needs a sort of background level of activity to keep it going. (I remember when I finally broke with my bloody mother, I was like "right, time to stop lurking on Stately Homes and actually post something" and I had to search back I think 6 pages' worth to find it. Then suddenly it was really active again).

Shall we park the private group idea then and revisit it if anything else happens? If we do end up with a private group Steve I'd be happy to do any necessary donkey work to set up with your advice. I'm also just for me personally I''m going to look for an online therapy/support group, if I find something good I'll pass on the details in case anyone's interested?

Makealist I love Richard Grannon so much. A Liverpudlian ex-bodyguard or whatever it is he did before ("the security industry"... I'll not ask) getting angry about people like my mum is just incredibly validating and comforting to me. I would go so far as to say that if my inner child could pick some parents she'd have Richard for her dad and Catherine Cawood off Happy Valley as her mum.
I've noticed as well that Grannon has a really good communication style, like he digresses massively but it's deliberate I think, because you sort of relax and your inner critic stops filtering every single word and so things sort of... slip past. He's also very good at similes. I enjoy a good simile.

Like you make I've found that the effects of the abuse got worse as I got older. Life caught up with me. When I got out in my 20s I went and did a PhD and got married, to a foreigner, and I moved around a lot and lots of cool things. And it was all a bit more scary than it needed to be, and I had bouts of depression too, but it was fun and varied enough that I didn't really realise anything was wrong. Now I'm 40 and I have a couple of bereavements, redundancy, I've had kids... life got real, all of a sudden, and I realised that I really wasn't playing with a full deck. Eckhart Tolle said (I paraphrase) that the test of emotional health is how you get through tough times - do you become more compassionate or do you become bitter? I wanted to be compassionate, I tried to be, bereavement gave me an intellectual insight that I tried to use to be a more caring person - but emotionally I was on the ropes, constantly stressed, constantly walking that tightrope between corrosive anger and total helplessness. That pretty much coincided with me coming on here.

fc301 I did do some meditation last year but gave up after a chest infection as I couldn't cope with focusing on my breathing. I'm also interested in Tolle's sort of "mindfulness of everyday life" thing, which is helping me.

Sorry, tangent - yesterday one of my kids took a doll to kindergarten and misplaced it. We were looking for it at pickup time yesterday when one of the other mums said to my DD "what have you lost"? DD explained and the mum was like "that's why I don't let my DD take her toys to kindergarten, because she might lose them" and usually I would be pretty upset by something like that - the sort of "here's why my parenting is superior", addressed to my kid and not to me directly so I couldn't really answer back - but mindfulness kicked in and I just watched my whole reaction, from guilt that I had let my kid lose her doll , through dismay that I couldn't answer back, relief when I realised that I was following my own right-on parenting principle (that kids should be allowed to discover the natural consequences of their actions) and then amusement at myself that I felt better having constructed my defence against her accusation of bad parenting, even though neither of us had actually said a word to each other... I mean, I expect it's not the end of me being sensitive about my parenting or anything else, but it was a lovely mindful moment. And then we went home and made houses for ponies for 4 bloody hours

Yeah anyway, mindfulness. I'm interested in self-hypnosis as well but I feel like I need a therapist to help me identify what stuff I should be working on. I feel like the issues for me are all buried behind 20 years of grey rocking and denial there was a problem. I'm not at all confident at identifying my issues. I feel like it's only in the last 6-12 months that I've allowed through any negative feelings other than a sort of weary dread of life that you get when you repress everything else, so I don't even know what bothers me. I'm trying to find a new therapist right now. I've got loads of thoughts about this stuff but no plan, as yet.

Glittery this is why I used to love the old fashioned church playgroups where they just sort of throw the kids and the toys into a big pit in the middle and the mums sit round the outside drinking tea and reading their phones. The ladies who volunteered at our local one were brilliant, they'd be like "don't worry, I can see the little one from here, make sure you take a biscuit with your tea". I knew two women from them who you could sort of joke with but everyone else was doing the perfect mum bit, you know, you'd be ostracised for admitting your 18 month old had once tasted a Hula Hoop.

Right, nearly done... you guys are the only place I can share my early morning musings about abuse and recovery, this is why I need to find a therapy group! I was thinking about that phase a lot of us go through of "they may have abused me, but it doesn't give me the right to deny my kids a relationship with their grandparent". (Spoiler: we totally do have the right, and in fact the responsibility, to keep our children away from adults who have a history of abusing children, whether or not they are family).
It's clear that this is something to do with us not taking our feelings and our lived experience seriously. No surprise if you've grown up being abused - a big part of emotional abuse and neglect is teaching kids that their emotions don't matter, that they should keep them quiet and not act on them, and many abusive parents will actively gaslight you about the abuse you experienced so that you mistrust your thoughts as well as your feelings - but how does it work exactly? I think there's a couple of levels to it.
First of all I think we might believe that our wanting to avoid contact with our abuser is not a good enough reason in itself. We think that if it s good for our kids, then we have to put up with it. I think that's wrong. I mean, I don't think having contact with abusive grandparents is good for any kid, but say they managed to keep a lid on it the whole time and your child actually enjoyed the relationship. It's still not worth putting yourself through it. You are allowed to protect yourself.

But OK, say you want to put the kids first. Why do we risk it? I'm currently having a bunfight over on AIBU about the risks of cronobacter contamination of formula milk (one in a very big number) and I've just spent 300 euros on child car seats for kids that last year would have been on booster seats, 20 years ago would have been wearing a lap belt and 30 years ago would have been bouncing around in the back. But I let my mother have contact with my children for three years even though I knew she had emotionally abused me and I was seeing signs of her losing her temper and also trying to manipulate them. It was a huge risk. Why did I take that risk? I think it's a thinking error: I think I'm set up to ignore the warning messages that I get about my mother. My brain just goes "oh yeah we know about that, there's nothing we can do about it, annoying isn't it?" and nothing happens.
I wonder what other things I let pass in that way? Being bullied at work, certainly, I very readily accepted the view of my bullying boss that I wasn't very good and wouldn't be able to get a position somewhere else in the company. I let it upset me when my performance review put me on the bottom 25% of performers even though I'd done what I considered a blinding job of taking over an area of responsibility and fixing it. I didn't make the connection between her bullying behaviour and her assessment of me as crap. I just didn't grasp that one might have something to do with the other. I believed it all.
How do you notice these things when you're experiencing them? I don't know. Does it get better as we get better, do we automatically start giving our feelings more credence, do we start reasoning from the position that we're basically OK, and that if someone's being an arsehole it therefore means that they're actually an arsehole? I feel like in the meantime I should do myself a checklist: How to Spot When Someone is Taking the Fucking Piss. Or maybe I'll just visualise them Richard Grannon standing next to me and see what he'd say.

I like the idea of the private forum. I would post more, and with more accuracy, if i wasn't always worried about being recognised.

I don't know . If there was a private forum, then people like me who joined because we've read the posts and recognise that other people are going through the same thing wouldn't be here in the first place. And continued to feel confused and alone.On the other hand, I'm also nervous of 'outing' - until I'm ready. So a private group would be safer [ ?? ] - wouldn't the trolls just find that as well ? Having crammed my way through the 32 pages, I've been wondering what happened to the people who drop out - because it's too public ?- and worry if they're ok.
Thank you, toomuch for your wisdom. Actually, thank you to everyone. It all helps. I wish that I could get the same validation from my birth family. Most of whom act as though I don't know anything about anything. [Not true].
Another general question .. do people find that [ most of ] their family members begin to form an increasingly 'closed unit' as time goes by ? To rely on, and expect, other family members to provide everything ... from friendship to practical help to validation to love ? etc, etc. Especially when dysfunctionality means that some members find it hard to make and maintain social relationships.
I've actually got to the point where my outsider status seems a positive now, because I've had to - and so can - make external relationships .

I have an adult DS - reading the above makes me realise that I really have to do some explaining to him about why I sometimes behave the way I do [ I think I've overcompensated, and protected him too much ? ] . Gotta stop the pattern moving across generations. He possibly just thinks I act weird sometimes.That mindful analysis bit sounds good.

Gotta stop the pattern moving across generations.
I identify very strongly with this. Its a huge motivation for me when bringing up my DCs. I am almost definitely over-compensating in some way, or being overly harsh because my compass is way off, but I'm doing the best I can and I'm very willing to be told I've taken a wrong turn and need to correct it.

My relationship with my teenage children is night and day different from the one I had with DM. I respect them and appreciate them. So, I'm definitely correcting some of DM's mistakes but maybe I've gone too far the other way? Or not far enough??

tarbert. Hi. They say you can only ever be a 'good enough' parent. Who's perfect ? I bet your kids think your'e wonderful - under all that teenage stuff [ and you can't do much about that apart from to be there for them - and allow them to be themselves, which I bet you weren't. I wasn't allowed to even look at my DM the 'wrong way'].

What I meant by overcompensation was to [ probably] not challenge DS enough. I made me not matter enough ?? If that makes sense. And to avoid passing on the more unpleasant things that happen.so everything is 'nice'.Luckily he's a good person. But he's not a mind reader, so sometimes I get hurt, and feel bottom of the priority list. I've got to change. This past year has been pretty shitty in so many directions, and I've come to realise that some of it is down to me not saying it how it is - and was. And standing up for myself, sometimes assertively.So I've got to start by telling him. Told my DH about [some] of it. He's getting there.

do you talk to your kids about the way you feel/what your parenting style is aimed at ? I would recommend it. Once you've gotten into a pattern it's hard to break out of the mould - especially the 'nice, passive' mould. Assertive or feminist is seen as ' aggressive/ hormonal/ menopausal/weird/trying to cause a fuss. Don't worry about it too much. Please.

I just wanted to say that I too would be very interested in a private group. The reason I've never posted on this thread under my usual name is because DF is a bit of a snooper, and I wouldn't put it past him to have a MN account specifically for snooping purposes, and that combined with my other posts would leave him in no doubt that I was discussing him resulting in an "after all we've done for you over the years and this is the thanks we get" etc etc type response.

Makealist I know I struggle with assertive parenting. I have tended towards being really permissive and then getting really fed up with it and feeling downtrodden and taken advantage of and then I shout at them and that's no good. But it's hard. Saying no 100 times a day is hard, much harder if you've been raised to feel your own thoughts and feelings don't matter and you're a bad person if you lay down boundaries. Of course we have to lay down boundaries for our kids - they need that - and also for our own mental health.

It's really hard to come from a background of abuse/dysfunction and do any work that doesn't have specific measurable outcomes. Not just parenting, I felt like that during my PhD. I think our default soundtrack in our heads is "you're getting it wrong" and if you're talking about a job you usually have quite concrete goals that you can point to and see it's not true, but parenting you never really get a sort of external measure like that, because it's an influencing role not a controlling one. You never really know what effect you're having.
IDK if this will work for anyone else but I sometimes sort of just pretend to myself that I'm an authoritative person whom people will listen to. I tell the kids something, they (DD1) say "why", I say "because I am your MUM and I don't want x/y/z to happen to you" and then I just bloody eyeball them till they do it and it works a surprising number of times. Only with important stuff, most of them time I just give them peace to do what they want.
Oh and I wanted to share an awesome thing. I've read that one of the worst things about childhood emotional abuse is being made to feel you deserve it. So if I do get shouty with the kids, just in case, I apologise - certainly at the end of the day if not at the time. And then a couple of days ago DD1 was getting into bed and she said "I'm sorry for being angry at lunchtime" (she'd thrown a strop about dinner, acted out a bit) and I was like "yay" but also of course said it was OK to be angry but that maybe she could have done something differently, like tell us what she wanted before we cooked dinner? It was awesome, I felt like the ideal parent for about 10 minutes, like I did a healthy thing! And she copied it! (Then the next morning I picked up a faffing DD2 to carry her to the car, tripped over her leg and got the both of us scraped legs and soaking clothes so I had to hand the mum of the year award back but hey ho )

Counselling assessment is now over, up to six months for first "proper" appointment. Limited number of sessions. EMDR not on table until these sessions used (20). Have asked for psychiatric assessment too as gp unhappy to prescribe benzodiazepines whilst going through process.

Daughter in hosp too...