"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I haven't called the friend yet. Its still so raw. I think I'm ok, but really its because I am blocking it out of my mind. When I let it in - for example, to write these posts - I start to get teary again.

I'm not grieving for DM. I don't know what I am crying for. It just feels like I've been through an ordeal, except, all the days i spent with DM last month were very unpleasant, the real ordeal was when I was growing up, particularly the teenage years, which I survived.

I have teenage children of my own now and somehow that makes it harder because I can see more clearly how badly she behaved to me. She reverted to her old behaviour for just a few days, and in just a couple of days, I went from being bemused at how controlling she is, to asking her to calm down, to trying to ignore her to eventually hiding in the bedroom scared to come out because I knew she would at least verbally, but possibly physically, attack me except I didn't know what the spark would be.

(I was right - she did attack me within 5 mins of leaving the room - but its not surprising as you get to sense the danger).

I was cast straight back into my teens, except I am 50 now, and I have my own family. I would never treat my DC like that and tbh I'd kill myself trying to defend them from the kind of treatment that DM meted out to me on a regular basis.

Tears are good, I think. Better out than in. Without wanting to sound trite, I wonder if you are grieving for your lost childhood, for the child you were and for the love that you should have experienced, and didn't? If so I think your tears are the healthiest thing ever.

I'm always amazed when people say "once you have kids you'll understand your own mother" because like you I understood it even less once I had my own kids. I did start to be able to see how it all worked though, how she lied and misbehaved to create constant drama and tension. Whenever I feel myself getting pulled back into the FOG I just have to imagine what she would be like with my kids and I have no regrets at all.
Anyway I hope you're OK and that you start to get a bit of peace soon.

I've been listening to Richard Grannon youtube videos while making a massive bolognese (10L, it's epic) and I had such a moment of insight that I literally heard in my head.

I exhibit crazy behaviour in life, but especially at work where there are lots of people with expectations. In difficult times I shuttle between flight and freeze behaviours (either tackling everything at once, scariest jobs first, or procrastinating while eating crisps) and when I've thought about ways of getting out of that, of doing it differently - the feeling was guilt, a specific kind of "oh no, I need to get on with this job" sort of guilt (which was the same guilt I felt at (not) dealing with my mother. Like when I made the decision to go NC, it felt like playing truant.)
My inner kid thinks that dealing with the world using the CPTSD behaviours of flight, freeze and fawn is her lot in life, her burden to carry. She's not scared as such, just fucking tired, and she believes that anything that makes her burden easier will probably turn out to be a false economy. I can remember thinking as a child of 4 or 5 that not wanting to be punished so harshly was just a symptom of me being a bad kid who was a bad sport. She used to say that, my mother. "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime." It's just that I grew up in a fascist police state with torture and summary justice. And there were no political prisoners in that state, just poor buggers banging rocks.

Yes, I think you are right. I am grieving for the child, for the fear and bewilderment and the clinging to the abuser because I felt I had nowhere to turn. I can't bear seeing or reading about child abuse because I can feel the child's anguish.
It has never occurred to me to want to emulate DM when looking after my own children. Consequently, they are nothing like me, and I am very glad of that.
I've heard from DM via my sister. She wants me to get in touch and is"worried about me".

Just re- my last post. DM wants me to get in touch apparently. She's telling said that she's "worried" about me.
I'm feeling pressure to speak to her but what to say? Pretend that nothing happened, and wait for it to happen again or ask an old woman to change the habit of a lifetime?

Tarbert,

I had a message like that from my father re my mother "missing me", my view was well if she missed me that much then why does she not make contact herself?. My dad chose to tell me that message. I ignored it as should you ultimately.

This message has come via your sister from your mother. Your sister is being used by your mother as a flying monkey here. I would ignore all communications from either of them, they have not changed and they do not have your best interests at heart. You are still a child for them to control in their eyes, you're still their scapegoat for them to hurt.

Would you consider being in no contact with either of them?

Tarbert you have my sympathy it's horrible being fed information from a third party my mother uses my aunt, it really makes me feel shitty but that's what they want really isn't it.

I could use someone's perspective on what's happening with us at the moment, my family cut me off 3 years ago in that time the only contact we've had is 2 parcels for our baby one after the birth and one at Christmas late last year.

I had in the FOG been attempting to maintain contact until the baby was born and I started therapy for PND and anxiety my therapist was really good and had loads of experience with narcissistic mothers she helped me see I shouldn't be trying to keep them in my life as we can't have a healthy relationship. I don't think LC is an option my mother has no boundaries and I'm not strong enough at the moment.

This is the first year we sent nothing for christmas and gone full NC on our end.

Since Christmas we've received text messages and now a wedding invitation to my brothers wedding? My brother I haven't spoken to for 3 years.

I think they have sent the invite as they want the baby there so my mum can play the doting grandmother while I sit in the corner being ignored.
If we don't go she can cry poor me and my terrible daughter who is keeping my dcg away from me.

We won't be going, I intend to ignore the invite but this is the problem I know this will probably cause an escalation in their behaviour as they continue to get no reaction. They have a big old emotional chip suddenly back on the table in the form of my child and they aren't going to let it go.

How do I get through this? I feel the FOG creeping back in and they are just going to chip away at me until I break.

They aren't going to get bored are they? And I'm not having my child exposed to them it's taken me over 30 years to realise that I was brought up in an emotionally and physically abusive environment and I'm only just starting to move forward (baby steps really) into a stronger healthier mind set how I do I maintain this?

I really felt like I was doing so well after Christmas although the gifts are still in the spare room and I will need to deal with those at some point I feel like I'm under attack and I don't know when the next blow will come.

Glittery,

They cannot hurt you if you keep on point blank refusing to engage and or pick up the rope they hold out for you.

Narcissistic people often attempt to impose themselves on people who have gone no contact with them. What they are doing with you currently is a behaviour called hoovering. Keep on ignoring any attempts they make to contact you, shred it all without opening. These as you well realise, are not being sent out of any real concern for you but an attempt to control you and bring you back into their dysfunction.

I would block all ways of them communicating with you via text message; you do not need to receive them. No more narc dipping as of now (reading their texts). The gifts are really not those at all as they are loaded with obligation; I would get them out of your home (take the items to a charity shop) as soon as possible; do not give these any more power than you already have done.

glittery I think you're right that there might be an escalation of their behaviour in the short term but if you stay strong and don't respond to it they'll get bored eventually and stop it. If you get back in contact, they'll be motivated to escalate even harder and try to engage them. Put the presents in the recycling or give them to charity. Returning them is communication.

Stay strong: you know what your childhood was, you know it's the right thing to do to maintain NC for the sake of your DC.

Thanks both, it's so bloody hard my anxiety has been up since I got the bloody invite and I've been irritable and snappy with dh.

Hi all
Ive been a bit of a lurker after realising about 6 months ago that my own DM was narcissistic and that my own childhood was not really a normal happy one. We had a big fall out in the Summer (triggered by the bloody referendum (!) and her trampling all over me and my views as usual) but we sort of made up in the autumn when I sat her down and told her some of my issues. I think at the time as I had never done anything like stand up to her before she was quite shocked and just seemed very upset so she was on her best behaviour. Anyway Ive been having counselling ever since which has been really helpful in making me see its ok to have boundaries and that what I want is normal and reasonable.
However its all kicked off again over Christmas as I firstly declined the invite/expectation to have christmas day at her house then she found out that I have been back in touch with my step dad (they split 20 odd years ago) who she hates and banned me from contacting. Now she has cut all contact with me apart from to send me a really long email outlining all my faults, how she did her best and how my step dad never liked me anyway etc. It was all very hurtful but I have not responded because I know it just feeds the drama.
After last time this is not new to me but I am really struggling. I cant stop thinking about it/her. I feel weepy and snappy with my DH and kids, I feel really low. Im not sure why though? I know she is a narc so I know I cant expect anything else from her but its just hit me really hard. She doesnt love me at all. I could never just cut off my kids but apparently she can. It frustrates me so much as well that I can never get through to her because she just doesnt think in a rational way. How do you cope with the frustration/ rage that you can never make them understand? And then the overwhelming sadness that I am basically motherless I suppose even though she is still alive? Not to mention the loss of my sisters who are both firmly enmeshed (Im the scape goat). I feel very lonely and sad which feels ridiculous as I am a fully grown adult with my own family living far away so why do I even let it affect me?!
Sorry thats more of a ramble than anything! but if anyone has any advice on how to come to terms with it all Id really appreciate it

Big hugs tootired. It's really shitty. She has been cruel and classic bar. I mean who the fuck character assassinates their own child? Well my Dad & your Mum for a start!
Your are coming to realise that she does not/can't love you /care for you. I believe this knowledge is devastating on a deep psychological level, it was for me.
BUT you will be ok. Give it time. You will be much happier within your own family without her in your life.
I'm 13 months on from aggressive character assassination. Xmas was difficult as you constantly doubt yourself but I do feel good.
Pay attention to all the things she HASNT said and done. That helps me realise it's not me it's their shitty behaviour xx

*classic narc

Hi all, first time poster just looking for solidarity. I won't bore you with too much of the back story - classic controlling parents, hated all my friends, have no friends of their own, or hobbies, or social life. I had eating disorder and three breakdowns between age 14 - 39.

They hate my husband and seem to think all our problems began when he came on the scene but in reality he just gave me the courage to stand up to them.

We had t seen them for three years because we've been living abroad but they came to visit for two months arriving early December. They just booked the tickets without asking but I didn't mind because I did actually miss them. Husband was less enthusiastic but promised good behaviour.

From moment they arrived they were overly critical and controlling. Mum went out and bought all new cleaning and laundry products because ours weren't good enough. She spent the first week cleaning the house and re laundering everything because she 'had to' - our life was 'disgusting' and things were 'worse than I thought' according to her.
At the end of week two they threatened to go back home. They said they felt unwelcome although reasons cited for this were that I 'couldn't be bothered' to pick them up from the airport on time (their flight came in an hour early and they didn't tell me) and that we had t bought or hired the six seater car we promised (my dad had told me not to, that he would help me find a car on arrival and loan me the money).

I didn't beg them to stay but I made it clear that leaving would change our relationship permanently. I told them we wanted them to stay and eventually they agreed.

We had a nice Christmas and then in the new year they had to go elsewhere for two weeks because of a bereavement. When they came back they were grumpy AF and it seemed that my mum was no longer interested in trying to temper her behaviour.

She began openly criticising the way we parent our older child who has additional needs. She was particularly critical of my husband and the kids began telling us, 'gran says there are too many rules' and 'gran says we shouldn't listen to daddy'. Eventually it resulted in an a out row in public between my mum and DH when mum got between him and our DS while he was trying to parent and told him to leave DS alone and she would look after him.

Later when I tried to explain to them that they had to stay out of the parenting, that apart from the fact their criticism was unwarranted we are actually working win a behavioural therapist on a particular programme designed to encourage structure for DS own safety, she just flew j to a rage.

She said some rerrie things. She said we were 'mentally abusing' our children. She said she believed our parenting was to blame for my sons additional needs (he's been diagnosed with a well known developmental disorder). She said I was an embarrassment and my husband was a bully. My dad also shouted at my husband and the whole thing got physical.

Later they said they were going back to the UK. They said they would go home,'pack their things and leave. I said that wasn't the best idea, that we should focus on trying to talk and resolve the issues like adults but then they just said they had no j retest in doing that. They said my husband was an A-hole and they never wanted to see him or speak to him again. They said they couldn't be in the same room as him.

So I was surprised when a few hours later k got a chirpy email telling me they would be staying in for a few more days at our house while they organised their flights. I said no, I wasn't comfortable with that after all that had been said and I booked them a hotel which I said I'd pay for. They went ballistic and of course blamed it all on my husband, the bulling control freak who has banned his poor, selfless in-laws from their daughters home. They described themselves as victims.

I continued to urge them to stay in the country so we could resolve things but they refused. I lent them my car, let them see the kids and even ran them to the airport this morning. I told them I love them but me and husband come as a package and we need to resolve it as a family. They said I don't know what love is, that they've always put me first and given up their whole life for me and that I'm an in grateful brat. They refuse to accept they had a choice, they're actin like I threw them out. They refuse to accept I've been reasonable. They won't take any responsibility for their part in all this.

So WTF now?

Very little contact, and only on your terms. You visit them, and if they start up on the usual topics you get up and leave. Maybe Skype, with the same rules, for the children. Is there anyone else in their country you go back to see?

Sorry, happyday, I should have said. Oh how awful, what a shame, I bet that hurts.

I didn't meant to be so brief, I'm reeling from all the awful situations everyone is dealing with at the moment.

We haven't been back home for over three years but were planning a trip later this year to see them and friends. I have no other family.

There are many terrible stories on here and elsewhere, and I fee a bit silly to be saying, 'I feel sad because mummy didn't hug me enough'. It's a big step I think to begin to see how damaging emotional abuse is and I'm only just starting to see the truth behind the way they acted. I know they love me, but they've got no idea how to express it. I wish they'd get help.

Don't minimise the impact of it, and the continuing damage they are doing. They are failing to recognise your adulthood and autonomy.

Pickle - or anyone else on here - would you recommend me outlining to my parents in an email what the play will be from now on? Ie, this is why I'm angry, this is what I'd like an apology for, and until we can all sit down and resolve this contact will be limited to letters to and from the kids? Or should I - as I'm in a privileged position of being able to do so - just ignore all digital contact and not answer the phone and just get back in touch when I'm ready? I feel either one opens up more abuse oppos - they wax lyrical about how shit we are over email.

Hello happy day, welcome...
I would say email or not according to how you feel, but don't be disappointed if you parents still react badly. You've put in boundaries with them, they don't like it, and they're going to act out about it. And it's not your fault. Maybe see this as the start of you not taking responsibility for their feelings any more? It might be easier to do that if you don't send the email.

I just wanted to say to Tarbert (don't know how to tag) that I really relate to your experience and your DMs behaviour. I've nothing to add except solidarity really. If I have a revelation I will share it!

Thanks Toomuchtooold. They are in transit now for several days so I won't hear from them and hopefully that will give me some time to think. I've contacted a counsellor to help me work through this. All I've ever wanted is a positive relationship but until they see me as an actual person with my own ideas and beliefs I don't see how we can move forward. And if I try and say something like that I get told, 'I know you better than you know yourself'. Unused to actually believe that. How sad.

I don't think I would make it that formal happy, as my experience is it gives them something to fight back against. You need to give them as little material as possible. So next time you skype, chat politely until the criticism starts then say (and practice suitable phrases beforehand) "If you keep criticising our choices I'm going to ring off." "We are happy with our decisions, let's talk about something else." "Oh dear, as you only want to criticise us today we'd better ring off." "It upsets me when you argue all the time, I'm going to ring off."

There might be a bit of cold shouldering or ringing back. You have distance on your side to help you ignore it!

If you send an explanatory email, they may well respond with a long explanation about why it's ok, why you should put up with it, how much you have upset your mother after all she has done for you, you're making her ill you know...

ohhappyday

Do not send them any further communications.

If you plan a trip back home see your friends, NOT your parents. It will be akin to walking into the lion's den with a rickety chair. No, just no. Do not do that to yourself.

You state you have no other family but you have your own family unit. Concentrate your energies on them and friends who are nice to you, not your parents who could not care less about you.

Your parents happy, have not changed one little bit since you were a child. They are still controlling and abusive but the difference now is that they are abusive to not just you but also to your H and your children. Controlling behaviour is abusive behaviour.

You've tried, and probably tried all your life as well, but enough is enough now. Where is your own line in the sand?. You've tried boundaries and they unsurprisingly have trampled all over them. These people will never get the necessary help because they feel entitled to act like this and consider they have done nothing wrong.

It is not your fault they are like this, their own families of origin did that lot of damage to them. They are disordered of thinking and such people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, family are no different. Like many people born to such toxic parents you're mired
in fear, obligation and guilt. These are but three of many damaging legacies left by such people to their now adult children. It goes without saying as well that you need to keep both of your parents well away from your children; toxic parents more often than not are toxic grandparents as well.

You will not ever have the relationship you still want and you are going to have to let that thought of this being resolved completely go. What you need to grieve for ultimately is for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

Am glad to read that you have contacted a counsellor. I would suggest you read a copy of "If you had controlling parents" written by Dr Dan Neuharth.

Ohhappyday79 I'm only posting intermittently because its like a bruise and I don't want to press it.
As each week goes by, and the last time I spoke to DM gets further away, I feel a bit better.
I still think about it every day. I'm not even a little angry any more. I'm trying to work out what to do wrt the relationship, but I really feel that I've tried everything without success. (50 years is a long time to really give a good go to several fresh starts).
I've finally realised that both people need to be trying to make it work, or its got no chance. And that means trying every day, not just for a short while before slipping back into old attitudes, whilst secretly thinking that you were justified in being nasty anyway.
So, no decisions yet, but the way I am thinking about it now, I can't see a way forward and it does feel a lot better to have this space. Its giving me a chance to calm down, stop crying and begin to feel like a valid person again.

Thanks for your kind words. The more I speak to people about this the more confident I am that I have been reasonable and I have tried hard. It hurts that they are prepared to walk away but I have no control over that.

They've walked away from me before and it's resulted in months of sadness and guilt, inability to work, being a poor parent/disengaged and high anxiety characterised by weight loss and fatigue. So far I'm not feeling so many of these things or not at the same intensity, so I guess I'm stronger than I used to be.

Tarbert I remember years ago, the first time they turned their back and I didn't beg them to stay in my life, the sense of relief I felt as the weeks went by. By four months I felt strong, happy, confident - the best I'd felt in years. When they did eventually call ('your mothers in hospital but you wouldn't know because you haven't bothered to speak to us for months!') my heart sank. I use my memories of that time to remind me that I don't need them in my life to define it as happy.

It will get easier in time. Whilst you still believe that they love and care for you the cruel remarks and the leaving hurts much more. And I spent over a year trying to reasonably resolve it. Now I am beginning to feel much calmer. My conscience is clear and I KNOW that they ought to hang their heads in shame for the way they have treated their own daughter.