"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

This will sound crazy but hearing about your awful families is actually very helpful. Have spent all year thinking 'is it me?' ... I still cannot quite believe some of their awful behaviours actually happened. NY resolution is to stop analysing everything and just move on.

Hello all, I've posted on here before but name changed as details outing

Bit of background I'm NC with FOO and recently had baby since the birth we've heard nothing from them then today we've received 2 parcels

I've been seeing a therapist who suggested I read the book "will I ever be good enough" and has confirmed that my FOO are very toxic and I should only consider NC or Extreme LC if I want to stay in contact.

So question what do I do with the gifts? There is no acknowledgement of either me or my dh on parcels only addressed to baby obviously this is unacceptable but do I...

1. Keep gifts but send a card stating that while we appreciate the gifts to please not send anything in future as they cannot have a relationship with my child if they refuse to acknowledge us as her parents (possibly haven't worded this correctly but hopefully you get the idea)

1. Send gifts pack with a letter as above

1. Do nothing (obviously the best option) but have every birthday and Christmas overshadowed by these parcels arriving until they get bored of sending them?

You may have seen I've started another thread on this in chat as one of the gifts is a completely random over the bed tray table like in hospital?!

So there's the added turmoil of WTF and some triggering going on

I hope its ok to post this here, (please move it if not).

Yesterday I was prompted to write my story by another post I put up re my parents visiting to bring gifts.

When I was 10/11 years old (about 1979) my elder sister moved her boyfriend into the family home and almost immediately I loved him and he took advantage of that and began abusing me, not really bad stuff but not right for a 23 year old and an 11 year old. The thing is, and this is where I find it so hard to come to terms with it, I loved him and didn't mind him coming to my room. The only problem I had with it was the guilt I was building up for my sister as she went on to marry this man. To cut a very long story short he continued to touch me sexually even after they moved out and also when he took me home after babysitting for 5 years until they split. (I was so devastated when he left the family I was beside myself, he told me he loved me just as much as my sister) During this 5 years my Father caught him in my room twice and promptly told my mother and they informed me that I was to stop it immediately and never speak of this again. I was probably 12 or 13 at that time. That action just reinforced my guilt and I duly kept quiet. Once I grew up and had a partner of my own I told him of what happened and he made me realise that this man was an abuser and he groomed me and I should report him, what if he is doing it to someone else? I went to my mother and said we should report him and she said that if I was to tell my sister (his ex wife) or the police she would deny everything and tell them I was lying I must keep it quiet. I went to her again 2 more times and got the same response. Cutting it shorter still. This man died in April 2013 and my Mother rang to tell me this and was horrified that I was not upset and would not be attending the funeral (she had kept in touch with his family for all these years) we had a big row and I said I had to tell my sister as she wanted to allow him to be buried in the same grave as their daughter who sadly died aged 10. I could not allow this man to be near to my 10 year old niece I just couldn't, so I told my sister and the response I got from her changed my life completely. She never once doubted me, she tackled my parents about their behaviour and was completely in agreement that it was not my fault. My 30 years of guilt I had been made to feel by my parents mostly my mother drained away from me that morning speaking to my sister (his ex wife).

Anyway, moving on 12 months from there, I had very little contact with my parents since then and I got a phone call from other sister asking for money to bury an uncle who had died penniless. I said I would help but how come he was penniless, I couldn't understand. I got forms from the council to get a paupers funeral ( i didn't really want to pay out of my own pocket I barely knew him), and asked for access to his papers and bank account to complete the forms, this is when I realised that My mum and another sister had supposedly been caring for this man but had infact bled him dry financially, even withdrawing cash from his account a week after his death. I had to then pay £2000 for the funeral myself (as I agreed not to go to the police. The council would have insisted on prosecution once they got all his papers with the application form) So in conclusion, I last saw my mother in April 2015 when I delivered her brothers ashes to her until yesterday. I just want someone to tell me that I am not being unreasonable not wanting to see my parents as they make me so angry just to look at them, I still send cards and presents as the backlash from my vile family members would push me over the edge I am sure, but I really want someone to tell me I am not a nasty person doing this and even though my parents are both 80 years old I should not be made to feel sorry for them.

Themystery
Do nothing (obviously the best option) but have every birthday and Christmas overshadowed by these parcels arriving until they get bored of sending them?

Do you think that if you take option 1 or 2 that will actually stop the presents from coming? I suspect it won't - I suspect that any communication from you will be a reward, attention even though it's negative (in fact they might well appreciate it, giving them somewhere to hang their anger - "look at how we are rebuffed when we make this loving offer of gifts, what a monster our daughter is, how hard done by we are") and it'll encourage them.

Sorry you're having to go through this shit and congratulations on the new baby!

crazydoglady you are absolutely not a nasty person. I know how you feel though, when you grow up with abusive people they train you to blame yourself for every conflict. You're a nice person, and your parents are awful. Your mother blamed you when you were sexually abused, refused to go to the police with you, and refused to let you tell your sister, so she spent years married to an abuser, had a child with him - you know now she would have left in a heartbeat had she known. And she swindled her brother when he was in need of care. Believe me when I say it is not you, it's them.

Can I please ask some questions oh wise MNers?

Background is I was abused by father. We cut all ties when I was 17- I feel FAB about it. He refused to admit his liability so I stepped back and made a pretty good life for myself. 15 years on I have to emotion tied to him and have emotionally processed the abuse.

But I would like you to help me with me DH & his DM, my MIL.

She is controlling. When cannot make plans with any of his family without her changing the plans and general medalling. She tells DH what to do with our DD, with me, with my family, things we've organised etc etc. She even brought us a new dinner set as she "didn't like ours" (she doesn't live with us BTW!)

Also if DH does occasionally find the front to tell her no or stands up for me (E.G. tells her I'm not a shit mum) she cries, puts the phone down/storms out the house and then later will contact him to cry some more and tell her how sad he makes her, how she gave up everything for him.

She allowed his dad (who she Is still with) to beat him, emotionally abuse him etc. He once broke his arm and he wasn't taken to A&E as she was scared SS would get involved.

How can I help him see this is abuse? He says that I am unreasonable and his mum is only joking, crap with words etc he beats himself up so much when she's upset. I don't know how to help him.

Hi all, not posted on here lately as 3 weeks ago I had a beautiful baby girl. Still recovering from a difficult labour but we're home and mostly healthy and looking forward to Christmas.
Like most happy occasions my narc mother has tried to get involved and but I'm quite pleased that I've managed to mostly keep her at arms length. I called her the day I had my daughter but we had to stay in hospital on a recovery ward so she couldn't visit. She then sent me an email (too tight to call my mobile) saying what day she wanted to come and see me. I sent an email back just saying I wasn't sure how long we'd be in hospital and I'd contact her when I was free. Managed to avoid it for a week and a half, then caved and invited her and my dad. She came on her own and made some excuse why my dad couldn't come. I think the truth is that she wanted to get all the gossip on the labour without anyone else there. It's so annoying, I don't want her anywhere near my DCs but struggle telling her to leave us alone. My New Years resolution is to be more assertive or just ignore her completely.
OnTheUp I found it really difficult to admit that my upbringing wasn't 'normal'. I felt like I was betraying my parents and it wasn't that bad as I had a roof over my head and wasn't physically abused. I think the emotional abuse never really leaves you and toxic parents will always make you question yourself and what happened in your past. It might be helpful for your DH to write down some of the incidents from his childhood and read them back. Also how would he feel if someone treated your DD the way his mother treated him. Ultimately it's a difficult thing to accept and unless your DH is ready to face it, there might be very little you can do except be there for him.

Sung I am silly determined.

I am still talking with one sister and recently some stuff came out that I confirmed my suspicions about lots of things.

One That my other siblings would do things in order to get my step father to punish me. Essentially give me a beating. They did it repeatedly for years and behave now in much the same way with 'telling' If I've done something 'wrong' or make up lies about what I'm doing.

I've had this again for the last 8 years and it feels like all the steps I'd made forward to improve myself have vanished because they are back in the old routines and I'm having to defend myself.

Their most recent thing was to abuse me over my weight. Thing is its falling off now I'm NC - 17lbs and counting! - and I know when they see I'm changing its going to cause no end of drama. But I'm out. I'm out and I'm not worried anymore.

I've been sharing my abuse as and when I remember it with some close friends and via a very anon twitter account. I know, it sounds strange to tweet 140 character snippets of the abuse but its bloody working and helping me 'get it out' and I'm not hiding it. I'm just hiding my identity.

I made a very big effort to start some new xmas traditions here this week completely removed from the awful ones I've had. Not putting my tree up on dec 1st, ditching turkey, trifle, xmas cake and pudding. Oddly these things just remind me of the strained xmas dinners with lacklustrue prawn cocktails and warm melon we were forced to eat with my step father passed out, covered in piss, drunk in the room.

I can't remove the association between those xmas things and him. Maybe one day I will but making these changes is helping.

I hope everyone's managed to have a calm, peaceful Christmas Day. Have been thinking of the many posters and their stories today.

I stayed home today, just me, DW and two kids. Was nice to have no stress although mother tried her best to stir things over the phone.

Shall likely repeat today (birthday).

Best wishes x

Hurrah, DM has successfully ruined my birthday... good reason for a few drinks....

Hi everyone,
I keep coming back over and over
This year my mum (enabler) called on Xmas to guilt me again because I'm not travelling to visit over Xmas. I stopped this a couple of years back as they're rude and ignore my daughter and I except to take pics of DD and to give me jobs to do.

On Xmas day I receive a FB message from a much younger family member (who is too young to realise she's being manipulated) saying that my dad (narc) had asked her to ask me to send lots of photos of DD to my mum.

I sent 5 pics to her via a group email including text about how the day was going.

Then later that Eve my landline rang (they're the only ones who use it) I didn't pick up though as I was in the bath. They let it ring for 4 minutes continually.

I received a pic text via a group message and replied.

Radio silence since.

Anyone who doesn't have a toxic family will think I'm awkward and a awful daughter, but I just can't bear the drama.

I'm sure the phone ring was my dad to bollock me.

Oh I get you longdays. If you saw my emails you'd think "Meh" but I know damn well he's angry and I am being punished for not toeing the line (ignoring his shitty behaviour).
Last week Xmas envelope for my family/ cards for my DC - I am mentioned nowhere in this(I am their daughter).
Yesterday at 8pm - some bullshit excuse about not being able to email me and telling me they both love me. Horseshit!

Hideous isn't it fc I stupidly broached their behaviour with them a while ago and was told "after all we've done for you!"

It's a very long history of this nonsense of being made to toe the line. As a child my dad ruled the home, but barely spoke.

My political opinions are laughed at. My studies were sneered at for having too many holidays (8 weeks per year) and my essay subjects were pointless (the effect of a hospital on children).

My DD (7) is too sensitive. She isn't and I've had to teach her to be strong and to question things if she's upset. I was never allowed to question anything as what my parents said was final.

I'm now the awkward one because I want to be treated with respect.

Hospital admission on children that should say

All sounds very familiar longdays. Definitely all about maintaining control.

Have brought up my daughter to be fiercely resilient, ebullient and independent.

I may never have the respect of my family, my DD has none of the same issues thankfully.

Try to step back and see things you can't quite believe...
They are quite possibly jealous/ threatened by your academic success, confidence as a parent etc.
For me it all hurt very much whilst they mattered to me. Once I truly realised they really didn't care I felt more sane. Sad but sane.

I know you're right, but OMG it's so hard not to feel as though it's my fault.

Steve I'm so sorry you're getting grief from your mother, especially after having had a bit of peace at Christmas. Stay strong. The year is on the turn, hopefully 2017 will bring better things.

Hugs to both of you fc and longdays. Context is all. Other people will look at an isolated incident and not see the problem but it's when you've gone years, your whole life with nothing but indifference or aggression.

I've heard nothing from my mother since I sent her a NC letter back in... April? She doesn't have my current address but she does have my mobile number and I've heard nothing. I guess as Christmas has now passed we're safe, fingers crossed, but it is amazing to me that she respected the request for NC. Well, I am not about to look a gift horse in the mouth...

Interestingly (well, for me, and possibly anyone who remembers me chewing this over in autumn) is that my BIL who was NC with us sent Christmas presents for the kids. There was a return address so DH sent a card back. I don't know how I feel about this tbh. I think BIL has Issues relating to childhood (DH was your classic lost child, while BIL was the sort of overfocused-on first kid) and I always thought we would all have a lot in common. But he's always been a bit jealous and resentful around DH and I got dragged into the reasons for NC and I can't be arsed with a rerun of all the drama. Still maybe the contact means he's re-examined things and changed his view. It's probably worth seeing what happens. It's nice to be peripheral to the drama for once!

Longdays I've just read the book will I ever be good enough it's really helped me to see that how my family treat me is not my fault.

Just before Christmas we got a delivery of gifts for dc same as pp nothing addressed to me and then a day later I found out my brother got married and i was the only family member not invited normally this would have sent me into a depressive spiral but I've managed to keep my head above water this Christmas.

I was still sad and dh got a few snappy responses on Christmas day but I feel much better this year than I have for a long time I really feel like I'm out of the FOG this year

Sorry I've not read back through the thread. I'm considering (want to so much) cutting out contact with my father. I was just wondering how, practically speaking to do this.

I'm terrified about it and very sad. But for years I've dreaded seeing him, to the point of being physically sick. I can't see him without a drink in me.

He's 88 years old though, frail and vulnerable, and I'm next of kin. He fits (perfectly) the DSM criteria for narcissistic personality disorder...that's the easiest way to try and explain him. I'm not going to sit here and diagnose him, but I also know that if I just stop contact he will forever be the victim.

I'm so confused and sad. But from a practical point of view, should I write to him? Tell him not to reply? He wants to see me again alone, it's creating panic, but maybe I need to just see what he has to say and go from there.

Sorry, probably a random and rambling first post

Elba hopefully someone will come along with more clue about this, or there's actually a Reddit for legal advice for children of narcissists, here - otherwise as understand it next of kin has no legal definition so you're not automatically on the hook to deal with his care. Has he got any care arrangements or other stuff to do with his affairs that you take care of?

On the NC you can do it how you want, really. You don't need to agree to meet with your father alone if you don't want to. Do you feel like you have to give him a last chance to work it out? But on the other hand you also sound quite scared of him. I think you should try to protect yourself, however you decide to do it, don't give him another chance to abuse you.

I sent a letter to my mother when I went NC. I said I didn't want to be in contact any more, that this was because of her abuse, and I set out a few examples of the abuse over the years so she (and anyone she chose to show the letter to) was clear what I meant. You have to decide what you want to do if he does contact you, how to deal with letters, phone calls etc.

You're right that he'll probably be perceived as a victim if you break contact with him. You're probably the only witness to the abuse - that's how they usually operate, as they're very concerned with appearances - and lots of people with more or less OK relationships with their parents will think he can't be that bad, he's just a cranky old man, you should have more patience etc etc. It's one of the hard truths of growing up with emotional abuse that ultimately you have to believe yourself, even though your parents might have tried very hard to make you believe you weren't abused.

I hope you get a resolution that works for you anyway

Elba read Toxic Parents, it takes you through the process of tackling it/ deciding to go LC/NC x

& welcome xx

Thanks toomuch, it's good to read you've still heard nothing from your mother despite Christmas.

You're totally spot on too, with emotional abuse you have to believe yourself. Sadly denial is all too common.

Thank you for the welcome. I've just downloaded toxic parents, will make myself have a read.

After being so resolute yesterday I'm now backtracking and questioning myself again- seem to go round in circles.

In regards to the practical stuff, he currently doesn't have any care in place and I'm not involved in practical things as I live 100 miles away. But he is very keen for me to take on a POA which I've been putting off doing.

I do think I need to see him, as much as I don't want to I do want to hear what he has to say. But it will be on my terms (in public etc). I often leave these conversations totally confused (as in what he has said doesn't make sense, not dementia or anything as he's always been like this). I'm actually half tempted to record the conversation on my phone, or write bits down, to try and decipher them a bit after. But can't work out if that's an odd thing to do!! So confused at the moment.

Yes Elba boundaries are very important. I will never see my Dad alone again without my DH.
In my mind I envisage sitting there, listening to him rant, calmly making notes and then responding completely rationally!!
I think it's Toxic Parents that has some stock phrases e.g., how interesting you feel that way.