"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

You guys are wonderful. I am sitting in a cafe right now having a bit of a wobbly lip moment because you are all looking out for me. I know your advice is wise. I am going to speak to my counsellor about how I can engage cautiously, with defences, and trying not to get too involved or hurt here. Always with the knowledge that it might very likely go wrong. Because I'm working really hard at the counselling it is hard for me to think straight. I feel like my emotional compass has been magnetised and I dont know what way is north any more.

I LOVE "trust in God but tie up your camel first"!! What a phrase!

ALSO, I have been meaning to say this for ages. I am reading H for Hawk. If I'm not much mistaken, the very much not explicit subtext of the book is quite a dysfunctional family. The things she describes herself thinking and doing while having a grief stricken breakdown are painfully close to some of the things I have thought and felt over the last couple of years. Down to the fact that DH sometimes stares at me with shock (it's an audiobook and we listen together). I think many of you in this thread might be able to relate too. It's been an excoriating experience reading it, but enlightening!

I love that phrase too :D

it might help to talk over with your counsellor about what happens if / when it goes wrong. How you will feel, how you will react, and how you will cope, practical measures too like putting aside some time for your emotions. Being aware of what might happen and preparing for it can make it easier ... and if the plan is never needed, then yay :)

Hi,
I discovered this thread quite recently after someone on Twitter gave me the link… I have been through some of the posts, and I have to say that seeing that so many people go through the same things that I am going through is frightening, but comforting as well.

I started this message a few days ago, not sure whether I was going to send it... A bad nightmare last night made me realise that I do need to talk about it.

I feel like it is very difficult to talk about my abusive mother with people who had « normal » parents. They just don’t get it, or don’t want to accept that some parents can be like that.

I am 36, French living in the UK (far from my mother ;) ), I am the mother of a 6 yo girl and I am 8 months pregnant.
When I was younger, my mother was abusive, both physically and psychologically (it could be pretty bad, the last time she hit me was when I was 18 yo). I worked on my issues with a therapist before having children because I didn’t feel “fit for motherhood”.
Now I am feeling so much better, and I tried to keep a “status quo” position with her (low contact), not talking about the past, not responding to her attacks but my mother still tries to manipulate me, to get under my skin.
As we moved to the UK two years ago, we don’t see her very often – twice a year. But the verbal abuse is starting to ramp up again on the phone, she makes up these stories in her head about me/my husband / my daughter.

From our last conversation, I am apparently a bad mother because I don’t force my daughter to talk to her on the phone, or because I don’t force her to eat casserole dishes. On Tuesday she wanted to talk to DD to tell her that if she didn’t believe in Father Christmas she just wouldn’t get any presents – WTF?? I am also aggressive and lack of respect for her (well... duh!). At that point I just hung up.
I wanted to keep some sort of a relationship with her, for my daughter – I think I wanted DD to have a “normal” family (that I didn’t have). But now that she is 6, DD knows that her GM is toxic and I never lied to her about my childhood, so when she asks questions I answer them truthfully (without the sordid details though). Therefore she is not too keen on seeing / talking to her GM. And it f*cking annoys my mother.

My issue is: I am fed up with being verbally abused on the phone, being angry afterwards, with DD saying “well... you shouldn’t have answered the phone, mummy” (yes she is wise ). But I don’t want to cut all ties because

1. she may go to an attorney to try and get visitation rights... and I wouldn’t allow that in a million years, I never leave my daughter alone with her, but in France that is something GPs can do.
2. I still feel that DD can benefit from seeing her grand father

So now I don’t know what to do to stop her from being critical/aggressive/insulting with me and my daughter... Right now I’ve just decided to hang up when it’s too much, but it still upsets me. And the nightmares have come back.

Hi Lily

Re your comment:-

"My issue is: I am fed up with being verbally abused on the phone, being angry afterwards, with DD saying “well... you shouldn’t have answered the phone, mummy” (yes she is wise ). But I don’t want to cut all ties because

1. she may go to an attorney to try and get visitation rights... and I wouldn’t allow that in a million years, I never leave my daughter alone with her, but in France that is something GPs can do.
2. I still feel that DD can benefit from seeing her grand father"

1. In this respect your parents as grandparents do not have automatic right to contact with their grandchildren. She could try and go to an attorney but they will tell her she has no case. The onus I believe is on her to prove that a relationship with her grandchild would be beneficial to the child's wellbeing; she clearly will not be able to do that. Fortunately she is in France and you are in the UK; putting mental distance now as well as physical distance between you is vitally important.

1. Your parents were not good parents to you, what makes you think that your child would actually benefit from having a relationship with your dad, her granddad?. People do fall into this trap of thinking and hoping against hope that the parent/s will behave better this time around despite their own experiences to the contrary. Your DD will not benefit at all and she has already seen you as her mother be profoundly disrespected by her grandparents. You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, family are no different.

Re your father, he has stayed with your mother for his own reasons. I would not let him off the hook at all because he has failed her to protect you from your mother and continues to fail you. He is really her hatchet man here and cannot really be at all relied upon; he would rather see you in her firing line than he because he is a weak man. He also continues to put his wife above his now adult child.

I would now actively block your mother from contacting you via landline, mobile or e-mail. Be unavailable via these methods to these people.

You need to now further lower all contact with her and your dad to a stage where it is eventually no contact. After all you're not getting anything from your mother (and her enabler of a husband) currently except nightmares from having any dealings with her.

And your DD is indeed very wise.

shove

I would not trust your parents as far as I could throw them. I still wonder why now, why have they chosen now to be "nice". I think its all part of their nice/nasty abuse cycle.

(Re my first employer, if Mr Nasty had interviewed me instead of the nicer senior partner of the firm, I would never have taken the job!. It was only when I arrived there that I came across him daily unfortunately. I soon learnt to keep my head down and stay out of his way as much as possible. It was not just me he was nasty to, he was nasty, sweary and bad tempered to most of his more junior staff as well. I remember once saying "ta" to him when he handed/threw me something; he said that tar goes on roads. Funny what you remember even now. My only regret is not telling the much nicer and kinder senior partner why I was actually leaving; he only got part of the story).

Hi Attila,

Thanks. I still am not sure why I want my daughter to keep in touch with her grand father, maybe because it's the only grand parent she has who seems to care about her? (the 2 GP on my husband's side really don't care, and my mother just fakes it).

My brother died 7 years ago, and up until then I thought my dad was the nice one. But then I realised he was her enabler. He worked a lot just to be away form home, he never took care of us.

Hi Lily

You would be better off knowing people of all ages rather than having just one grandparent who continues to put his wife over and above your own family unit. He has failed you completely here and has certainly failed also to protect you from the excesses of his wife's behaviours.

My now adult child (where did those years go!) has 3 grandparents now and all of them have been rubbish to some extent or another. The 4th now deceased, was also a prime example of how not to behave. You really do not need people who act as drains in your lives. He has very little contact with them mainly because they could not be really bothered with him when he was much younger.

Hi,

It's been a few months since I've posted, have simply been surviving day-to-day and waiting for a referral to main psychological services to come through. Has very much been a case of treading water, with an emergency surgery and week in hospital and severe depression spikes and increased M.E pain/fatigue throughout.

Little background - grew up with a mentally unstable, emotionally neglectful and abusive mother. Classic narcissist with my father her enabler. Sibling was the golden child and, to this day, I am derided for not being born female. Was sexually assaulted as a teen by a stranger. Mother continues her crusade to this day against me.

I'm as NC as I can be with her, upon not returning her calls she has her claws into my brother who is growing increasing hurtful and nasty by the day.

Was diagnosed with complex emotional childhood trauma, PTSD, and an Adverse Childhood Experiences score of 5 at referral.

I had expressed my preference to see a female counsellor, as I feel I could have significant issues opening up to a man, yet my appointment is for a male. It's set for this year. Christmas is a distressing and upsetting time for me, relating to my childhood, so I'm loathe to re-arrange. Is it worth attending anyway and seeing how things go?

I've been writing my thoughts, and as much as I can remember from childhood. It's really opened the old wounds, but also made me admit certain truths to myself, truths I've denied for many years. Is it worth taking these writings along?

Thanks yet again for this amazing thread.

Steve, sorry you're having problems with your health along with your family issues, it must make it more difficult to deal with.
I would still go and see the counsellor, I think if you find the right person, it won't matter if they're male or female. You can always request to change if it's not working for you and you don't have to open up if you feel you can't. I would take the notes you've made with you in case you feel able to discuss them. Wish I had done this with some of the counselling sessions I've had in the past as I'm not very good at remembering relevant events when I'm face to face with someone.
Is it possible to ignore your brother and not have any contact with him? At least for a while. I don't know your circumstances so don't know if this is something you can do.

Attila

Your advice to Lily is wrong

Even if Lily can prove emotional abuse from a GP to a grandchild, most family courts in England will award contact. The best Lily can hope for is to make it Supervised. And that will involve:

• convincing Cafcass after the DHRA hearing that GP has symptoms of personality disorder/ abusive behaviour
• whole process for us cost around £10k and still ongoing 18m later

PM if want any other info

But is false to say GP can't have access even when severely abnormal behaviour (and children don't want to see them, now trying to end contact)

It is a nightmare I developed PTSD from the process & flying monkeys, lies, betrayals.

I was led to believe that grandparents have no automatic rights of access to grandchildren.

Lily's advantage here is that she has physical distance as well as mental distance between her parents and herself.

Hi all, how's it going?
We've been struck down by the dreaded lurgy since last week... it's going to be a long winter, I can tell

shove IDK if this makes much sense, and it probably doesn't help, but I think about your parents showing this tentative hand of friendship and you, cautiously but in good faith, reaching out for it... and I think they have had it very easy. And I would worry for you that if all this comes off, if it does get better between you all on a day to day basis, there's still the past that they've never apologised for, never explained - why did they treat you differently, why did they think that was OK? And I hope that they're not going to expect you to just sweep that all under the carpet - I hope you're not going to have to put on a brave face with them and edit yourself, edit your grief about that, in order to keep their friendship.

steve you're back! You were asked after, upthread.
I agree with sleepy, it's probably worth trying with the counsellor, for this session anyway. I hope it helps, I know you've had an awful time.

Lily you realise you've described a situation where your mother's basically holding you hostage, getting access to you to abuse because you're scared she's going to go to court to get unsupervised access to your daughter? I just wanted to read that back so you realise how awful that is.
Would you be able to get a family lawyer to look at the situation? It's complex, as it's cross-border - but it would be good to know if there's any steps you can take right now to make it less likely that she'd get contact.

Am nervous to post on here but here goes.

My mother is a typical narcissist. My father enables her/pretends not hear hurtful things she says/will always take her side. My brother of course is the golden child. They've never forgiven me for being much more academically talented than him (and them, although they do enjoy boasting about it).

I'm currently 8.5 months pregnant with my first child and worried about how this will pan out. They've been fairly crap - not bothering to be in touch, ask how I am. I told my mum we were living in a building site for two weeks while the kitchen was being done up - no offer of anything. But they love to complain about how I am distant, cruel, never in touch. If I voice any complaint with them or try to explain how they've hurt me, I get eye rolls and laughed at for being over sensitive. Somehow I'm over sensitive and insensitive at the same time. My mum thinks the love my friends and other family have for me is a result of me tricking them - she can't understand and has suggested I'm nice to others and my 'real self' to them. She's failed to see that she has no friends, falls out with family members that she's the problem. And deeply unpleasant. She can't understand why we don't have the same loving relationship I have with others.

My problem is this: the kitchen was finished last week so I invited them over for dinner with my brother and girlfriend. The first thing she said to me was 'look at you and your fat tum'. My bump is actually v petite and people have either said how well I look or asked if the baby is doing ok. She has a large stomach herself, and I get that she's projecting. I didn't rise to it, but instead talked about the ultrasound I'd had and reassured the rest of them my baby is measuring well. Then she gave me a plant while sneering about how bad I am at looking after plants and she'd had to ask the person in the shop for an easy one to look after. Again, I just said thank you and how pretty they were. This was the beginning of the evening, and if I'd made any fuss, I'd be accused of being difficult/over sensitive/can't take a joke etc.

There were more things, weirdly she mentioned how she'd recently found my brothers old GCSE certificates and actually he's done better then they remembered (he failed most of them, I got 9 A*s. It was an irrelevant comment). They talked about how the rest of them had been out to a very upscale restaurant last week (we hadn't been invited). And so on, there's more she said but same vein.
I've been so upset since that evening. I'd love to have a family that cared more about me.

Since then my dad has actually texted a couple of times to ask how I am (I have a better relationship with him but can't quite get over how he has never once defended me). My mum however only works a few days a week. I'm worried she's going to try and ask to meet up (she wants contact but in her way and to offload her problems). I don't want to see her and it causes me only stress and misery.

Would it be effective to say to her (if she tries to meet up) I didn't enjoy seeing her last week and don't want to meet up with her? I feel like she is ruining my precious maternity leave by making me feel so angry and hurt and seeing more of her will only make it worse. She is about to retire and with no hobbies or friends (honestly she does nothing at all) I'm scared she's going to try and visit me/the baby all the time. I see her once every 3 weeks to a month, I couldn't handle anything more.

I feel so awful about it. Nothing she does is 'so' terrible that I could justify cutting her (and my dad) out of my life completely but all she brings is pain. She is a mean, jealous, deeply unhappy woman and I just don't want her near me, my husband or our little baby. I don't know how to do this without looking unreasonable to others and validating their view of me as ridiculous.

Sorry for the long post and huge thanks if you read all the way through.

Hi all, this is my first post and I'm not sure I'm posting in the right place so apologies and please feel free to move it if needs be...
firstly I have been reading some of this (massive!) thread and it has been amazing to find other people understand some of these things! But I am so confused. I don't know who's right and who's wrong anymore. I have tried to surmise but its difficult trying not to drip feed...

I saw a counsellor years ago who said I have low self esteem/belief because of my dysfunctional family. My parents fought constantly and DH (who was always ill and I adored) used me as a bit of a pawn, favouring me over my DM and telling me that she was crazy. She was very volatile and I was scared of her moods and temper-she used to look at me as though she really hated me. It makes me shudder to remember that look coming from someone who should love me:( . DF used to go out a lot and leave me with her and I was petrified. I used to beg him to help me deal with her but he used to tell me to deal with it. Often when he returned we were fighting (very occasionally physically). He would get angry with me for provoking her and tell me to be more tolerant.

I am an only child and it was very lonely growing up. We hardly ever saw anyone as my father didn't really like people and they were both very set in their ways. Home had to be very quiet and as Mum slept every weekend afternoon?!-Dad went out. Mum did have her friends but she was like Jekyll and Hyde, the life and soul of the party-really over the top but was totally different behind closed doors-miserable, snappy and nasty to me. I couldn't believe how false she was. Even when I was very small, I knew there was something wrong and she needed help but DF wouldn't allow it.

DF had a large family and was in contact with some of them off and on as they fell out-normally with my mum because they treated him badly and he let them (I do agree with this).

I believe DM was estranged from her mother for a number of years til she was desperate for childcare (hospitalised) and I was introduced to my only grandparent when I was about 9. DM let me carry on seeing her but it was strange and it didn't feel like I was particularly well liked (unlike my cousins). She also had a very difficult on/off jealous relationship with her sister.

That's the background, they have both passed now but it has left me with many problems.

My DF family have completely disappeared since he died, I hardly knew them or saw them anyway but we used to exchange Christmas cards/birthday cards for the kids-this all stopped suddenly the year he died! That really hurts. Its like it was all a pretence for him! they just don't want to know us any more.

DM family is similar-though it has taken them a little longer to tail off...I feel so alone. I know I have my own family now but I'm scared history will repeat its self.

DH's family is also peculiar and manipulative e.g. withholding kids birthday presents if they don't visit and I can see him close to going NC. I can see why but I'm wondering- is it us? Are we really getting treated badly or are we over sensitive? Surely if nearly everyone has fallen out with us it must be our faults? I just don't know what to do.

I want to support him with the NC/low communication thing but I don't know if its the right thing to do-its really stressful! Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Many thanks for reading if any of you managed to get this far.

Hi Zum - your situation mirrors mine with the narcissistic mother, father enabler, golden child brother. I was also significantly better academically, yet it simply seemed to throw more fuel onto the abusive bonfire.

I've reduced my contact with essentially my mother and brother to as little as possible, and to a lesser degree father too. My DW essentially screens phone calls and provides interference. It's the texts and internet messages I can't avoid.

I honestly don't think you'll benefit from expressing how you felt as a result of your mothers behaviour. Do you not think it could provoke a situation whereby she has validation her behaviour is affecting you causing her to step things up further?

Hi Sleepy, I'm going to go along. As Christmas is the worst time of year for me, Christmas baby too...., I'm really recognising things are on a precipice and if I don't spit some of this stuff out before then it's going to be a really dire situation. I've cut contact down with my brother already, what didn't help is during my stay in hospital he came to visit me. I was really uncomfortable as he'd unleashed his main attack on me a few days before I was rushed in.

I think what hurts the most is he sees nothing wrong or bad in what he said or the threats he made. It's a vicious circle in that everything in my family's life is dissected and distributed between mother, father and brother, so it's a three pronged attack. I'm dreading seeing them at Christmas...

My main fear with a male counsellor is I originally saw a male CBT practitioner and I froze for an hour. I've spent so much time breaking things down - an emotionally abusive mother for all my childhood ++ and a sexual assault. It seems my psyche considers the assault more traumatic?

Thanks for asking after me Snort, sorry to hear of your bereavement.

Goasip - we had an issue when my daughter was much younger, where school and the educational welfare officer were concerned of the impact my mothers mental health could have, and instructed us as parents in no uncertain terms, if we didn't significantly reduce contact they would see it as a safeguarding issue. Is this not a route Lily could take to strengthen her stance?

Finally, I've read a lot these past months and I'd like to recommend the book "Childhood Disrupted", by Donna Jackson Nazakawa. It focuses on the impact adverse experiences in childhood have on our health and links in to (especially) autoimmune problems in later life. It's a good companion to the Alice Miller books.

That looking unreasonable to others is another cross to bear. My mother, to others, was a wonderful person. So happy, so generous, they never saw the visciousness handed out to,my brother or myself. Never saw the tears as we hid under the table Hoping she would not see us.

My lovely dad died when he was 50 and she quickly remarried. She filled my step-father with so many lies. I would listen to this completely reinvented life unable to say a thing. So ofcourse he thought I was ungrateful after the wonderful life she had given me. I am 68 and I stuck by her until the end, which came last year. I so wish I could have just left her to own devices. As it was she bad mouthed me to everyone even though I did so much for her.

After her death, I felt I had been let out of prison

Hi Zumbumba. OMG you are doing so well! You have worked out what she is really like and you are deflecting and not rising to things. You are also clear that you don't want her to adversely affect your little family.
On the one hand explaining your feelings will have little effect - she cannot or will not see your point of view.
On the other hand in Toxic Parents by Susan Forward she advocates confronting the person. I accidentally did this before I understood the situation. It lead to the most almighty wounding unpleasantness, which was followed up by a complete absence of remorse. I am now NC with both my parents. I have given up hoping that they will give me what I need and I have had to accept the painful truth that I don't matter enough to either of them.
You are ABSOLUTELY within your rights to limit contact in any way that you need to. Good luck with whatever you decide, and your baby!

PS if your conscience is clear you need to try not to worry about how others perceive your actions.

Hi Pootleperkin, so sorry to hear your story. It doesn't sound like it's you, you sound very reasonable. Most likely you are going through FOG - fear, obligation, guilt.
10 months of NC and I still have heartstopping moments where I think "is it me?". Then I remember all the nastiness.
I feel so much happier without contact and within my own little family all is calm. I hope you can find comfort in yours.

Sosidges -yes incredible how they can treat you differently and no-one else believes you! That is really so sad for you and your DB and I understand when you say about prison, it feels like you have to look after them even after they treat you so badly.

My DM changed when I grew up and left home and had my own family though. Still very prickly but she was NICE to my face! I guess it was because I was rarely alone with her-my DH was a bit of a buffer between us. Weird though how she acted like the past had never happened. I couldn’t bring myself to be pleasant with her and was always frosty/had my guard up. It just looked to everyone as if IWBU! She used to roll her eyes to everyone and suggest I was the difficult one, over sensitive, treating her badly etc. I felt like I was going mad and I did/do still question if it really was that bad. I’m sure my DH doesn’t really understand it although he has tried.

I find it’s the letting go that’s still so hard even when they have gone-they still have a hold, but when I have my head round all this, I hope to be able to let it all go and just get on with my life. ( the counsellor I saw told me that my DP's couldn’t help it, it was just the way they operated and they probably had been treated like it too by their parents so didn’t know any other way). I keep trying to remind myself of this!! Maybe now you are free you can let it go too-eventually. I know it’s easier said than done.

fc301 Thanks for your kind words. It is so reassuring. You are so brave to go NC. It is really good that you are happy and have your own family to focus on.
I do wish we could be that strong. DH is very low contact with his DM but its heading that way and is very scary isn’t it. I keep feeling so guilty (I need to read up on the FOG stuff-thank you). I found it harder than him when he went NC with his DB and I originally tried to encourage him to resolve things (with MIL bending my ear about it!). He was adamant that it would fall on deaf ears and as you said to someone, there would be no remorse or blame accepted on their part. He tells me he is much happier without them-like a weight has been lifted. I understand more now and will of course support him but I’ve long felt his mother has more to do with this awful situation than he used to realise. He is beginning to realise now as his DM is trying to force contact between her GC’s which will involve contact with his brother again.

Zum

Do read the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers as that could help you as could reading "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown.

I would keep your as yet unborn child well away from your family of origin as they are all toxic. They must not establish any sort of relationship with your child If all that your mother brings you in particular is pain then you are more than justified in cutting them off altogether. You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, family are no different.
Raise your own boundaries higher (although that may be difficult as she has never really encouraged you to have any) and start seeing them all far far less. Make yourselves unavailable to these people.

Re your dad women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them. Such weak men as well act as the hatchet man and he has patently failed to protect you from the excesses of his wife's behaviour. He would rather you cop her ill treatment that he, also such men need someone to idolise.

Whocansay - I know you have said what you are going to do and others have given good advice but I wanted to say this happens to us too!
My DC receive gifts from DH’s brother who he is NC with (he sounds like the golden child from reading this thread). The gifts are always at MIL’s with hers-never anything for us from him (not that we want any!) and sometimes it is obvious that MIL has bought them as she signs their names in her writing and doesn’t even attempt to disguise it! Every time I wish DH would refuse to take them but he doesn’t. It does upset him though and it sounds like he has similar problems with his sibling to yours.

This year the DC's received birthday cards through the post to our house from BIL. So someone (MIL) has given them our address. The cards are written from his children to ours begging to see their cousins at MIL’s! How cruel for BIL’s kids. Of course, no note to us asking our permission... We think they are trying to get them to side with them over us.
It is worrying as it’s none of the kids faults and ours are old enough to initiate contact themselves if they wanted too.

We cannot send the cards back as we do not know their address and I think it would be cruel to their kids. 2 of the cousins have met ours a couple of times, years ago and they did not get on-there was a bit of fighting and MIL sided with BIL’s kids. They do not know the other 3
.
We are considering confronting MIL today about her favouritism and involvement in all of this ‘gift control’ e.g. she always buys advent calendars for all her GC but this year because she hadn’t seen ours much (long story) and wasn’t sure if she would see them before/on their birthday she didn’t bother to get ours any . She actually told them that when they went to see her (punishing them when really it’s our fault-they cannot get there by themselves yet, it’s too far). Basically, if we don’t collect the gifts (she’s too mean to pay the postage)-we don’t get them and its definitely our fault!

I think as said by others, gifts given to DC's are just for manipulation to get at you through the DC's -so they can turn DC's against their parents. Because they can't accept they are wrong-it has to be us.
If I could stop BIL doing this /return the gifts I would.

The only people who really understand are those that have been through something similar. Even though OH witnessed witnessed her treatment of me, he thought I should just walk away. I felt that he lacked empathy and sympathy because, for him that was the answer. My brother did walk away to some extent, by moving abroad and rarely contasting her.

I have never had therapy, but MN has come very close to it. It is only by reading the posts here that I have been able to understand. It was not my fault that i had a bad mother.

One thing that haunted me when I got married was the fear that my children would not like me. I Particularly worrried about nurturing my daughter. Somehow I had this fatalistic view that she would distant herself from me when she was older. It did not happen, I am lucky enough to have a good relationship with all of my children. She did voluntary work with young families and one day she said to me, "I think we just take for granted how lucky we were to have the childhood we did. We take so much for granted, feeling safe, feeling loved, you know mum, so many kids don't have that"-

I know that it is a concern for lots of young parents who did not have a good role model themselves. I guess what we learn is how not to do it.

Best thing to do with unwanted cards like this is to immediately shred the things. Do not give them any power or a response; what people want from this is a response and that to them is the reward (to enable them to bother you even more). Radio silence must be maintained.

Re the gifts from MIL do not visit there to accept these. If gifts like this come to your house these need to go to the charity shop. Again do not give these items any power.