"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Awaywiththepixies

I would cut all contact with this friend and not acknowledge him any more; he's more like a frenemy than a friend.

How dare he also state that, "ok I will consider the position" when you told him you would not tolerate being sworn at. Again there's no apology of any sort in that message. He has a brass neck.

I also had a monster of a boss when I was 17 who was adept to bully and shout at everyone below his own senior level; the only exception was one of the secretaries. I quit after 6 months mainly because of him. My only regret is not telling my other boss (who was always polite and pleasant to me) precisely why I left.

I'm sorry you've been so ill Awaywiththepixies, and think you're exactly right to focus on your own health and wellbeing at present.

And you gave me a lightbulb moment: I too was horribly bullied by a boss a few years back and have never quite recovered from that, and it was only reading recent posts here that I realized she had a very clear golden child/scapegoat thing going on and that is what really got to me.

Awaywiththepixies
"ok I will consider the position"
This is, imho, definitely a narc response as it denies you the right to operate off of your own brain. He reinterpreted your declaration of boundary into something merely negotiable - a minimizing maneuver to smack you back down to a subordinate position. He might later flip to victim mode and claim you emasculated him by laying down such a behavioral law. He had to infantalize you first...to shut you up. Yes, shut up...and make it permanent.

I also had a boss that was an emotional bully. First job out of uni...tolerated it for a little over a year. It did affect me greatly and, even though I had another job after that, it was a great part of my decision to be a sahm. I later heard that he treated a string of employees dreadfully so at least it wasn't just "me".

Thankyou all for your advice. I took DD to her swimming lesson last night and I sat watching her happily playing ans I thought to myself, what would my advice be to her if someone treated her like this?

I know I didn't have to, but I wanted to, so when I got back, I sent him a message saying I dont think it is healthy to continue a friendship where someone has a headmaster / child role instead of treating me like an adult in my own right.
I know narcs dont accept responsibility, ever for what they do, and they'll always switch it back round on you, but it's just me wanting to make myself clear and know ive said everything I wanted to instead of mulling it over.

It was the "ok I will consider the position" that got me about narc. Telling him I wont tolerate being swore at is me saying, "these are my boundaries ___ , dont cross them". Not "will you agree to be nicer to me in future".

I said to my friend last night, why do I attract these sort of people, I loved her reply, she said "you don't attract the wrong people. You ACCEPT the wrong people". SO true!

I feel so much more empowered now that although what I have learnt is learned behaviour, I can and do deserve better in my friendships and my family relationships.

The boss I had was awful. I worked for a cleaning company whilst at college. The boss of the site I worked at made it her mission to make my life a misery every single day. She would ring my area manager up to complain over the most simplest of things. Would talk to me like absolute shit when I got on site, and I would take it because I had the 'put up & shut up' mentality. I can still remember her name to this day and some of the anxieties I have comes directly off the back of some of the things she used to say

Andtheband me too on the SAHM front. My last job - I didn't even hang around long enough to figure out which of the personality disorders that boss had, I endured a week of her ignoring me all day and then inventing a pretext for me to have to work late (and miss the kids' bedtime) before I gave notice. I'm not doing it any more, I'm not taking shite from any more psychopaths.

Away good on you. "I will consider the position." What an arsehole.

I do think with abusive bosses, we're at a disadvantage because we've been primed by childhood for the abused role, and they pick up on that, even when we're able to come back strong - I suspect that with secure people, they don't even bother trying. It would be nice not to be an instant target.
(Before I really copped on to all this, I was aware that I was bad at handling conflict but blamed that on my being an only child. I decided therefore that I'd try hard to have two kids, so they could learn to fight with each other in good humour and learn to resolve their differences by negotiation and all those things that scare the shit out of me. Now I have 4 and a half year old twins and that wish bites me in the arse every single day )

My narc middle sister...she had made an art form of the left handed compliment. It took me ages to figure it out- - but when I finally did: straw-camel-back (except it was a freight car full of straws).

She repeated it in various forms so often that it left me speechless at times.
Restaurant (with audience of our party or not) setting. I often order salads/meat on salad and she would say, "Oh, you are being good ". Clue-she wouldn't say it to anyone else. It finally dawned on me that she was giving me a gold star for my star chart as if I were 6 years old.

I have been very low/no contact with her over 8 1/2 years now and I can not imagine ever eating another meal with her again to avoid that, as I know in my heart that she would not be able to resist playing her old stand by insult as a reflex. I have tried to come up with a response and the only thing I could think of would be to say "Oh, it can't be just me! Go on and tell someone else they are being good too! Yes! Tell (name a man-dh) that he is being good!" Then it would be BadBitchyAndTheBand for putting her on the spot...or she would play right along with no self awareness and "compliment" my dh.

Evening all. Apologies for just jumping in. I have been NC with one of my sisters for nearly 3 years, after many years of having her stab me in the back. The last time she attacked me (not physically I hasten to add!), it was at an extremely vulnerable time and I will never forgive her.

Today we received a parcel from Amazon, apparently with gifts for my DCs, but no sign of who they were from. I later received a curt email from this sister, explaining that they were Xmas gifts from her for my DCs. What is this about? I want no contact with her. Should I send a message back saying that the gifts are unnecessary and not to send any more, or just continue to ignore? I also don't know where she lives to return them. Should I charity shop them, or just pretend to the kids that they are a bonus from Santa?

I feel really pissed off to be honest. She clearly still thinks she's done nothing wrong and doesn't appear to want to repair any relationship with me, so why bother with the gifts? As always, my feelings are totally irrelevant to her. I wish she'd just fuck off and let me live my life in peace. It has been much better without her in it.

Any advice or thoughts would be very welcome.

Hi whocansay. I sympathise with a lot of what you say. The verbal attacks from my (D)F were just so wounding that I too will never forgive. I am expected to move on /pretend it didn't happen/ I'm being over sensitive. Certainly no apology AND similarly attempts to get to my children without making any effort to resolve our relationship. I went NC this year.
With the presents don't feel duty bound to accept. How will you feel each time you see them in your house? I am gradually expunging all material possessions that don't have good memories attached.
Take care.

whocansay -By sending to the gifts to your dc without comment to you (besides identifying that they are for dc) is a dynamic to make you invisible.

Without knowing the background, this is just a guess. If she is too toxic for you to deal with, then she is much to toxic for your children to be exposed to her. She, imho, wants to get her toe in the door to eventually (playing the long game here) manipulate your dc against you. Another (most surpreme) way to get at you.

Charity shop them. (Or return to Amazon?) Responding is opening the field of battle so to speak. So resist saying thank you. That part gets complicated though, as some feel moral bound to say thanks-even for things that were not requested. Receiving a "gift" does not create a contract though.

However, if you do not want her to send you/your dc things, then perhaps a simple, administrative note telling her that the package was received and it made a much appreciated donation to the charity shop (since there was no return address). That may nip it in the bud.

Whocansay

People who have personality disorders, or traits of disorders, often use gifts to try to control other people. This is her passive aggressive way of trying to control you via your children.

You must maintain radio silence re your sister. DO NOT respond at all to this in any way. Even a bland administrative type note will give her an "in" to bother you even more. Any response from you to her will be seen by her as a "reward", she will know that it hit its target so you must not reply.

You need to block her e-mails now as well.

I would take these items to the charity shop this morning and think no more of them, do not give these any power. Do not return them to Amazon either because they will inform her that these have been returned.

Thank you everyone! It's good to know my feelings are valid.

My brother is lovely, but doesn't really understand and thinks I should forgive and move on, but I just can't. When my mother had just died in the hospital, another sister told me to give support to said sister (I was very angry and told her to back off immediately). It feels like my feelings are irrelevant and I'm just expected to forgive and forget and be 'the bigger person', as I always have done. I just don't want to anymore.

I will take the stuff to the charity shop, ignore and block. You are right, she's too toxic for me and definitely too toxic for my DCs. I just don't understand. She clearly thinks I'm an awful / selfish / self absorbed person, (I have been told of my faults many times!), so why does she even bother?

So something weird is happening.

I've been going to counselling lately, as you all know, and it's helping me. Hardly anyone in my life knows this - and not my DP or DSis.

But I have been very, very sad lately and I think it would be difficult for anyone who knew me not to be aware of that at some level. I hope I haven't splurged too much over anyone, but I am normally quite smiley and I haven't been myself lately.

But here's the thing. My parents have started to be kind to me. They are thinking of visiting me for Christmas. I can't tell you how unusual this is. They never make an effort like that. I live 3 hours away by car, and they have come to visit me twice in a decade. It is always me that makes the running.

Not only that, but they have sent some texts and messages to me that seem to be including me. Normally they would only message me for administrative reasons, but now they are texting me that they like a gift I bought them, or whatever. All the things they are saying and doing are positive and kind. Most of the time, they would only interact with my sister like that. There doesn't seem to be anything they want from me other than just to be nice.

I don't want to get all hopeful only to be crushed again. Yet part of me can't help it. How do I navigate this?

away - I just wanted to acknowledge what you said about your boss. It is incredibly undermining to have someone like that in your life and not surprising that it has had long-term effects on your self-worth. Bosses have such tremendous power as well - and when you are young in particular, you are vulnerable to that kind of bullying.

andthebandplayed - I know what you mean about those comments. I get stuff like that from my DSis - she works through a kind of mocking humour that makes it easy to say "Oh you're just oversensitive and can't laugh at yourself" if you express hurt. I am quite awkward around her, because I am actually quite fearful of her, so sometimes I will say something very straightforward, and then get called a 'retard' for doing so! And it is VERY much meant - I'm not sure she would even have the honesty to acknowledge that, though.

The thing is, you can't win with that kind of dynamic in a situation that is dysfunctional. Either you leave it and hurt privately in which case they will call you INsensitive, or you call the behaviour and get told you are paranoid or OVERsensitive or in some way ill-calibrated emotionally. You. CANNOT. Win! The only way I have found is to say to myself that the behaviour is odd and peculiar and not normal, and that whatever the family dynamic says, that remains the case.

shove

Re your parents I would be wondering why now, what is in this for them?

I sincerely hope they are not buttering you up to do something nasty but it may not be beyond the realms of possibility.

I would discuss this further with your counsellor.

( Having read further around the subject I have come to the conclusion that my first employer was a psychopath and narcissistic to boot. Empathetic he was not!!!. My DH has certainly worked with such a person too, the similiarities between these two unfit bosses were uncanny).

Atilla - I can't be sure but I don't think they are doing it deliberately to do something horrible. It's like they've suddenly seen me as a person with thoughts and feelings. I don't know why that would have been. I told them recently I was infertile - the response at the time was quite spectacularly emotionally incompetent (I had a thread about it under a pseudonym to which some of you contributed I think!), but maybe something has sunk in? Could that have changed things?

atilla - sorry to hear about your boss. I think someone upthread already said this, and more neatly than I am doing here - but I think sociopathic people have a nose for finding and employing victims.

So the day that i knew would come eventually is here. One of my parents is ill and i've had a third party message to that effect. I am currently yo-yoing between anxiety and depression at the moment its killing me. I know that they expect me to come running i can't they were the worst parents imaginable but they have a seriously strong hold on me i need to stay strong and stay away but omg it is so tough if anyone has any experience with this i would really appreciate a good talking to!

I'm so sorry kidsndogs. FWIW when that day came for me, I just kept telling the messenger 'thanks for the info' and left it at. I held out and refused to be swayed by the flying monkey. I don't regret not seeing my father. Only you can decide what you are going to do. However, don't expect any sudden confessions or apologies or understanding for what you have been put through by your parents. Whatever you do, be at peace with that decision and in all of this put your own needs first. Stay safe

I have no advice kidsndogs - you must do what you know in your heart to be right for you, and no-one on earth can tell you what that is. It really is entirely up to you, and you don't have to be swayed by anyone else's views and opinions. I just wanted to give you a big hug and to say to be gentle with yourself at what is a very, very difficult time.

Sorry to interject (perhaps pointlessly) when all I've been doing so far is lurking, but shove, my mum became very very interested (for want of a better word) when she found out we'd had many mcs and were struggling.

She sent me a card and gift on Mother's Day, and told me it would happen. She was unusually kind for a while. But - it gave her something to say "how terrible" about, to cry about to her work colleagues, or tell them off about if anyone made "grandma" jokes or references around her. There were other things too. It helped her make things about her again - my husband calls her an emotional vampire.

I'm not saying that's what your folks are up to. Maybe your infertility makes you "ill and childlike and in need of support" in their eyes again, and they genuinely want to reach out, but it could be something more about them iyswim? Please tread carefully

Thanks help - that's actually really useful.

My Mum is a little bit similar. She will make the deaths of people who have almost no connection with her personal. For instance, she went into a cafe that she goes to maybe twice a year and 'a man who was always smiley' wasn't there. She asked where he was, and it turned out he'd died. 6 months ago. She got really upset. The cafe was very apologetic and said that they had tried to tell everyone. She had a lump in her throat telling me about the death of this man she'd seen maybe four, five times. It is genuine emotion, but it's also out of proportion with how well she knew him. She does tend to gravitate towards sad situations and people, and then mope about over them in a way that makes other people's pain her own.

However, she shies away from grief that is close up, where she might actually have some responsibility. She behaved quite coldy after my GM's partner died - said that they had 'only' been together 16 years, so it wasn't really a long-term relationship. (DGM is, however, an extremely toxic parent to an almost unbelievable extent - think condoning the sexual abuse of her own child - so there is some self-defence built in there. I don't blame her for not wanting to engage.)

I do think she is actually trying with me though. Even if she's making it about her when I'm off the phone (and I don't know about that), she's trying to 'see' and listen to me. And being kind. So I am grateful for that.

Thank you for the replies, this is so tough they are so good at shovelling on guilt i am drowning in it at the moment. Their chosen messenger is my 32 year old son who "just wants everyone to get along" I do wish they would leave my boys out of it so bloody manipulative and there is of course no guarantee that its true dad plays these type of games he uses the drama to control i think its all so confusing deep down i know they are bad ones i think i am just here to get some reassurance they are bad and that staying away is the right thing to do if that make sense

shove

the wisest course might be to protect yourself by acknowledging the need for genuine love and reliability that they seem to be holding out to you right now.

But you've a long history of not being treated that way. How can you trust it's real and that it's going to stay, this apparent warmth from them?

Suggest you give your need for loving parents a spot within yourself and treat them with pleasantness, but don't trust their apparent warmth. It would take years of good treatment through thick and thin to be able to really belive they've changed. That can actually happen but it's far too soon now.

Otherwise at this stage you're setting yourself up to be let down and hurt all over again.

"trust in god but tie your camel up first" ... enjoy the detente, but don't drop your defenses, and give yourself space for the hurt that comes along with their now-warmth.

Also, in a practical sense keep control of when and where you meet. YOU having control at the moment will help you retain emotional control too. Christmas might be too emotionally loaded a time for them to come for this year.

Shove, don't drop your defences. Your mother sounds so much like mine it is alarming. This is your mother's chance to 'support you' - but not for your benefit but for hers 'the martyr who drive across the country to help her poor daughter - what a wonderful parent she is'. Honestly, my mother pulls this trick when I'm feeling vulnerable but I somehow even manage to STILL fall short of her expectations (story of my life) and not be vulnerable enough, or grateful enough or sharing enough.
Please don't let your guard down. It's also worth noting that my mother only remembers my existence when months have passed and it is coming up to an event (like Christmas) where she transforms her role to 'Christmas martyr' - a woman who sacrifices her happiness for others in achieving the 'perfect Christmas'. However, to fulfil that role you can't really admit to other family that you haven't got a clue what your daughter's been up to the last 6 months as you haven't bothered to contact her; thus a kindly message appears. I've stopped raising my hopes, but the wee girl who lives inside me always feels excited that she's messaged me and thinks 'maybe she loves me as much as my brother'...
The answer is no, she's just keeping up appearances.