"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

You guys are rocking this morning. I'm sorry to hear it's hard going - it does get easier.

tomboy
They are just too fragile to be able to allow the smallest perceived threat to their sense of self so they have to attack us instead, blindly hitting out until they feel safe again.

Just my outside view but I can't help thinking you are giving your mother a very easy ride of it there. I don't know yours, but I know mine, and the hitting out was never blind - she'd always try and find a particularly sore spot to have a go at, and I could see that clearly as I grew older because as I stopped sharing anything of any emotional significance with her, her attacks got more and more ineffective. I also would question how fragile they are - I mean sure, essentially they're small scared shamed children wrapped up in a carapace of oneupmanship and stupid mind games, but they get an emotional payoff from all that shit. This is the problem with trying to stay in contact with them, IMO, because all they really want to do is keep playing their sick games. DH and I knocked ourselves out trying to foster a pleasant relationship with my mother for years, and she hated it really, because all she actually wanted to do was shit all over us and make herself feel better, which we almost never gave her the chance to do.

shove this will sound a bit mad but have you seen Happy Valley, the BBC drama? Season 2 in particular sees the main character just refusing to be gaslighted, she's got this 100% conviction that she's right - and she is - I found it really therapeutic to watch. I don't want to give the story away so I'll keep that vague. I had the strongest sense of just wishing she was my actual mum (although she's about the age to be my big sister, but thinking back to when I was a kid, you know).

I'm still trying to find that "Will I Ever Be Good Enough" book because there's a bit in there about the "collapse" that children of narcissists go through when they are in any sort of conflict. What I experience is that if anyone's ever unpleasant to me, I spend lots of time panicking and examining my behaviour to see whether I "deserved" their nasty treatment. I find as I'm recovering a bit now, my brain will sort of comment on this process like "oh look, here we go, the collapse, let's examine my behaviour for fucking two hours now" and it takes the sting out. I also try and ask myself whether the other person's behaviour was unjustified, even if I had done something wrong - this is the big one. Specially for when we were kids. Normal kids don't behave perfectly, they play up. But they don't deserve to be abused as a result. Our parents gaslighted us to hell that if we misbehaved, they were entitled to do whatever they wanted as "punishment" (more like revenge, or more often just a pretext for hurting someone to make themselves feel better). We don't have to be perfect in this world to deserve being treated like human beings. We don't have to be endlessly giving or productive or top of the class or thin or beautiful in order to earn our place in the world. We have every right to fight our own corner.

"Should I stay for the sake of trying to show my baby what a family is"

But your family is abusive, swinkle, so you presumably don't want your child growing up thinking that's what a family is? That's what OUR families are like but normal, healthy, supportive families aren't like that. Don't let your child grow up like you did, thinking that's normal and there's something wrong with you for not being able to cope with it. Congratulations on your pregnancy! You are so aware of how NOT to treat a child that you won't make the same mistakes.

Toomuch, I don't know. I have this urge to defend her (I am well trained), I know she was actively cruel when I was growing up but I don't know if she is now? argh

"I also try and ask myself whether the other person's behaviour was unjustified, even if I had done something wrong - this is the big one. Specially for when we were kids"

Yes, this is so true! There is a huge difference between a normal, reasonable response to a child misbehaving (even quite badly, which actually I never really did) and the way my parents treated me.

One thing I'm struggling with, among all the others! Is feeling like I'm lying. Like I'll describe a situation and know that I'm saying it exactly as I remember it, yet feel as though I must be lying. It doesn't make sense. I was always called a liar and as I kid I would lie in order to try to avoid punishment. Which is a natural response to such harsh and disproportionate punishments to whatever minor infringement I'd committed.

It's nothing like it was now though, TomboyFemme. I don't see them very much and I think they know how I feel but it's all swept under the carpet. There's always this big tension... although you're still right of course. How it is now is also not what a family should be, and the difference between the way my family interact with me and the way DHs family do is huge, jarring, actually. His family is warm and loving and they may get on each other's nerves a bit but they are there for one another. No one knows about the baby yet. DHs family will screech with excitement; I think I know what my mother will do, and that's immediately ask if she'll be allowed to have the baby. Even if I don't cut them out that is a definite no, they will never have the baby by themselves, never. She knows that too, she'll be waiting for the argument, to paint herself as the victim, to storm out of the room in tears. I'm dreading telling them tbh, and there we are, you're right. I think I'm just trying to make excuses to not cut them out, because the reaction I know I'll get scares me, despite my anger.

Swinkle

Congratulations to you on your pregnancy

The best thing you can do for your child is not at all expose him/her to your parents. If your DHs parents are nice then great, work with them instead. Mum and dad were not good parents to you, they will not be good grandparent figures to your child either. Its as stark as that. Do not show your child that warped idea of a family unit. Your child needs positive and life affirming roles models in life; not abusive people like your parents and brother.

You won't be like your parents in bringing up a child because you know that their treatment of you was and is wrong on all levels. I do not think that you will turn into either of them at all. Your parents were and remain neglectful to you; they have failed you abjectly as parents. They are toxic through and through and will not change. Such people as well never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. It is also not at all possible either to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; yours is scapegoat and your brother's is golden child.

Your mother has stayed with your dad for her own reasons; mainly her own self interest. She gets what she wants out of it and has also been abusive towards you.

I feel the same way too about feeling like I'm lying, or that I've done something terrible. I'm always waiting to be found out and punished even though I've not done anything. If I have done or said something wrong, I expect the consequences to be catastrophic. I am riddled with paranoia and anxiety pretty much all the time, to the point where I am almost always unable to breathe properly. I cannot take a deep breath, it's like there's something heavy on my chest and I'm always just a little bit away from total panic.

Interesting story about the zoo Swinkle.

I remember an odd incident one Christmas where my mother had taken me to a Christmas party. I must have vern about 4, maybe even 3.

Someone had a poodle and I commented to them that my Mum didn't like them as she had been bitten by one once. People chuckled.

Then my mother very cooly took me to one side and said I should stop talking as I had embarrassed her enough already this evening. I could tell she was very, very cross.

I remember being confused about this for years after, and eventually thinking wtf! It is such a bizarre memory I sometimes even question it, but it is so clear, and I have had it for so long, it must be true.

What on earth makes people behave so oddly to small children?

Parentified. What a good word! This is something I'm absolutely terrified of doing to my daughter. She is so sweet and nice, and if I do something like stub my toe she wants to come kiss it. I usually let her, and say thank you, and give her a big hug - but I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do? She also tends to mimic how I comfort her if she gets upset, if something has upset me - like I burned something cooking or whatnot, and she'll be very sweet and say things like "It'll be fine" and giving me a hug. I usually say thank you and tell her she's very kind and that's she's right, it will be fine (or whatever). But is she acting too much like an adult? Am I parentifying her by accepting these offerings? Yet I feel like what she's doing is mimicking how I comfort her, and so learning about stuff like that and basic interactions, and if I were to reject it I'd be sending some kind of message like she wasn't good enough to be able be kind to people. And I don't want to send that message. This really confuses me.

shove:
In my heart of hearts, I'd like to have a family that loves and appreciates me.
And that's the hard thing, because what you can't do is change someone else. That's what I keep telling myself. Although, I have actually just read a book that talked about changing the family dynamic and gave examples where sometimes if you stopped responding to your parents' "inner child" and directed action to their adult selves, sometimes they'd respond, but it still isn't something you can force. (I actually didn't like the book so much, so won't recommend it, but it had a few tiny useful tidbits in it.) But I figure I've been trying to engage my parents 'adult selves' for 20+ years and it hasn't worked, so I can't really expect them to change. But what I can do is work on how I view them and adjust my expectations.

iam - am I reading right that you call your mother every day? That sounds massively oppressive. I'd be a quivering mass of jelly if I had to do that. I can barely recover from once a week! And if you don't call, she gets mad and doesn't contact you? Facetiously, it seems like that's a nice easy out, as she'll cut off contact for you if all you do is skip one phone call? I'm still trying to get my head around what you talk about every single day. More seriously, I suggest you can do something like say or maybe better yet text (so you don't have to deal with any histrionics in response) that a planned call with her every day isn't working for you anymore and you will now contact her at most once a week (perhaps specify, saturday afternoon, or after the school run on Mon, or whatever, just leave it). If she gets angry and doesn't then answer your call on that day, just keep up the attempts and/or cut it off with something along the lines of "It seems you don't care to maintain this more limited interaction". Don't get drawn in to any arguments, just give those bland responses "I'm sorry you feel that way" and so on. Although you could negotiate a mutually agreeable time, as that would be her interacting like an adult with you.

Health things - yes, but for almost the opposite reason! My mother's paranoia would turn any small thing wrong with me into me being at death's door. This was exacerbated by an actual issue that if I ever got Strep it would be very dangerous for my father so he needed to take antibiotics, thus any time I coughed just a little I was dragged off to the doctor for a throat swab (I have memories of being chased around the room and pinned in the corner by Drs jabbing things down my throat). But she would also drag me off to the Dr for ridiculous things, like scrapes and there was one acutely embarrassing time I couldn't hide a swollen ankle from her and she brought me to the doctor to look at my "tumour", despite the fact that I assured her I had just sprained my ankle and knew precisely what I'd done and that the nurse at school had put an ice pack on it and everything. Ugh. Just thinking about stuff like that makes me shudder. Thus, why it took me so long to let my parents know about my actual serious health issue.

Thank you Attila. Yes, I always regarded my brother as being the golden child, even way back when before I realised how abnormal my family was compared to others. I think some part of him sees it, I know he has his own issues with them but right now he's buried it and is content to play happy families with them. Man, it's such a relief to know that this is "a thing", that I'm not just what they told me I was! I'm determined to try so damned hard with my baby, to make sure it knows every second of every day how much I love it.

"'im always waiting to be found out"

Same. I have a handful of good friends but I don't think I believe that they really like or value me because why would they? and sooner or later they will realise what I'm like and reject me

I've suffered with anxiety and depression all my life but examining all this stuff is making things so hard atm. I can't sleep or eat and am in constant pain in my stomach and chest.

Murmuration, it sounds like you're modelling empathy and compassion for you daughter which is a normal, healthy and positive thing to do. It would be unhealthy if you were asking for her support or leaning on her which an adult problem, but that's not what that sounds like at all.
I have actually just read a book that talked about changing the family dynamic and gave examples where sometimes if you stopped responding to your parents' "inner child" and directed action to their adult selves, sometimes they'd respond

I genuinely don't think this is possible with parents like ours. I've tried this many times and it drives me mad. My mother is unable or unwilling to respond from her adult state, she just doesn't. So it's crazy making trying to get her to

I always take too long to write my posts! Hello swinkle, and congrats on your pregnancy! You've already gotten lots of advice, but I echo to think about what example your family will set your child - is this one you want to show them?

Regarding not knowing how to be a parent, I so relate. I would say I know how not to be a parent, but that still a lot of potential behaviours out there, not all of them the best choices. I'm a reader, so my approach has been to read lots and lots of parenting books. :) But if you're not a reader, you can probably find other ways to learn about stuff - you can use your DH's family as an example. Find friends and groups that parent in ways you like.

ethelb, I've no idea! I honestly don't get it. I saw someone on Facebook the other day chuckling about how their little one had said it wasn't fair for them to tell them off because it made them sad. I thought, if that had been me saying that to my mother she would have gone crazy!!

TomboyFemme me too. It's on my mind all the time, I find myself having these huge arguments with them in my head all the time. It takes a toll. Sometimes I try to force myself to not think of it, just to calmly say to myself Nope when I find myself thinking about it again, but it never works for long.

Thanks, tomboy - that makes me feel better. Yes, it's not adult problems, it's going "ouch" when I hit a door frame or express frustration at stuff (which sometimes is adult-ish problems, like internet routers or cooking or whatnot, but not like finances!).

Yeah, I feel like there isn't an 'adult' in my parents to interact with at times. One of the reason I don't recommend that book is that it seemed to think contact was good for contact's sake, and I really don't see that. I think it's fine to decide you want to maintain contact (as I have done), but that no one should be pressured to and not for any silly reason like "family" with no other specifications. Sometimes "family" is terrible and should be avoided.

Thank you murmuration. It's absolutely not what I want to show my baby! I have a marvellous example with my in laws, they are so lovely :)

Your dd sounds like a sweetie, murmuration. She knows how to give love and comfort because she's been given it herself :)

"I saw someone on Facebook the other day chuckling about how their little one had said it wasn't fair for them to tell them off because it made them sad. I thought, if that had been me saying that to my mother she would have gone crazy!!"

My daughter does things like this! It's almost as though she isn't terrified of me!! I'm by no means a perfect parent, I do shout and am not as patient as I would like to be, but I always apologise if I've shouted. I don't blame her for my response. I don't guilt her or tell her she's bad and I have never and will never with hold affection or comfort.

One thing my parents always did was say "I don't like punishing you/shouting at you, you know, but you've given me no choice." NOPE. They always had a choice and they chose cruelty.

I used to hear things like "look what you made me do".

It seems like your little one is a very lucky one indeed TomboyFemme. I'm sure no one is as patient as they'd like to be, but if she says things like that to you she's probably very confident in her relationship with her mummy. I want mine to talk to me like that too :)

Thank you Swinkle, I'm sure they will :) Another thing I do differently as a parent is to look at why my Dd is behaving a certain way. e.g. OK, she didn't sleep well last night so is tired, or maybe she's coming down with something, or perhaps she's struggling with a change in her life or whatever. Not once have I thought "Maybe she's just a malicious little bitch who's trying to make my life hard because of her inherent badness"!! There was never any leeway for me to whinge, or be moody, or any of the normal kid things, I was held to these impossibly high standards and punished for not being perfect. Of course they didnt have to meet these standards themselves...

One thing I'm struggling with, among all the others! Is feeling like I'm lying. Like I'll describe a situation and know that I'm saying it exactly as I remember it, yet feel as though I must be lying.

Yes yes yes to this with bells on, Tomboyfemme! I said to my counsellor last week that after months of therapy I have realized I don't actually believe, deep down, a word of what I've said to him in all those hours, even though I also know it's true. Deep down I know I'm just bad and a liar and I'm making things up to blame everyone else for my badness.

The therapist said that he would be surprised if I felt any other way, given the abuse I've suffered. Which was nice to know and quite reassuring.

That does sound reassuring. I'm glad you've got a good counsellor, justawoman.

It's 3 weeks since my last contact with my mother. I'm wondering if she may just not contact me again. I won't contact her so that would be a really easy cut off! Of course, I also feel sad because it would really drive home how little she cares. But I do already know that, it wouldn't come as a surprise. It's just occurred to me that I could change my mobile number and not give it to anyone in my family. I really don't want her to call me despite what I've said above so why even keep it as a possibility? Do you have to actually inform the other person if you go NC, or can you just slope off quietly? Is that the coward's way out? I just feel if I do try to explain or even just firmly state my reasons I'll get such a guilt trip laid on me, with all the how can you be so cruel etc stuff that what's the point? it would just hurt me even more. Am I "allowed" to do it like that?

I'm totally not keeping up with this thread anymore! Sorry, hope I'm not ignoring anyone...

swinkle, I went NC with my scary narcissist mother last year. Your situation is more complicated with your mother (my enabling dad died a few years ago) but one thing I will say is that the great thing about NC is that when they go absolutely apeshit about it, you're not there! That is a perfectly acceptable way to do it - some people will say you should have it out with them, give them the chance to reply - this all applies with normal parents with whom you have a difficult relationship. Not with abusive ones. Right to reply for them just means one last chance to abuse you. You don't need to put up with one more single instance of abuse from your father.

I also get the lying thing! Less so now, but definitely before I started working on all this stuff. Even the other night I was talking to DH about how my childhood asthma was never followed up because my mother believed it was just a leftover from whooping cough (which I got because she was somewhat anti-vaxx) and the GP's way of getting at her because she and my dad smoked 20 a day in the house despite my chest problems. I was telling him all about this and my great joy at getting to see a chest specialist, getting an inhaler prescribed and how I can now sleep after a cold instead of having 3 weeks of uncontrollable coughing till 2 in the morning each night, which I've had all my life and was given to believe was normal, or at least untreatable, by my mother who would come in my room to shout at me to cough more quietly. And I felt like a total fraud. I'm like "this actually happened! She actually did that!" And he's like "I have no trouble at all to believe that, I know your mother" - it's just me that has the trouble.

murmuration I don't think there's much danger of you parentified your daughter. It's totally appropriate for her to comfort you if you've hurt yourself - she'd do that if you were a little kid friend. You're not sharing with her big complex adult worries which would be sort of adult to adult and you're not acting out and expecting her to anticipate your moods and pander to you (adult to child). It is really disconcerting though isn't it? Aged about 3 my eldest started asking me "what's wrong mummy?" when I was stressed and I found it really hard. Also just knowing that she was so sensitive to my moods! I'm fairly sure that as babies you can fake a good mood but it's a lot harder as they get older and more perceptive.

Tomboy you don't need to give notice of NC IMO - it's not the coward's way out, you're under no obligation to put yourself through any more abuse. It can be useful to write a letter as later evidence if you think she might harass you, if you think you might have to go to the police, or possibly if there are flying monkeys, it might be worth doing a letter as something to point to if they go "she just doesn't understand what she's done wrong". I did that with my mother after my cousin contacted me through Facebook asking for my address for my mother.
If you do do a NC letter I would say keep it concise and factual - imagine it's being read by someone outside the situation. You just want some very concrete examples of abusive behaviour, maybe mention that you don't want your daughter exposed to that - but don't apologise or justify, only inform, if that makes sense?

Yes that makes sense, thank you. I can't imagine she would harass me or bother to send out the flying monkey, though I'll be on guard for that, so I can't see the point in sending a letter, really.

Does anyone else struggle with self care? I'm having trouble eating at the moment (I've been in recovery from an eating disorder for about 6 years now but it's never really gone). I physically feel empty but can't figure out what I want and can't be bothered to make it anyway. I'm living on tea and toast, and leftover sweets from Halloween. I'm also not sleeping. I'm tired but just not going to bed?! This has been going on for weeks and I'm knackered and feeling like an idiot but I just can't seem to make myself go to bed. It's like all the energy I have is going towards figuring all this shit out and I have none left for looking after myself