"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Dd is only 5 but by God you'd better believe she'll know everything there is to know about her own body including, and most importantly, that its NOTHING to be ashamed of! And I plan to do the same with sanitary supplies and bras and make up and anything else she wants/needs!

yes TomBoy, my mother. I'm sorry that my posts aren't clear, I'm sitting here just so angry right now. There's so much I want to say but I don't know where to start. It's all such a mess. I can see her behaviour repeating with my DC and my siblings DC. The is a 'golden' DGD who can do no wrong, and for whom the earth needs to be moved, whilst her other DGC are forgotten about completely. It hurts so much to witness and that 'golden' DGC is one of mine! I need to go NC but also feel like I need to speak to her about it even though I know that it will end up in a row or her turning herself into the victim (again). Maybe I need the row to give myself a valid reason to go NC IYSWIM?

Don't apologise, it's so hard to order one's thoughts when they're swirling around so much, and you are being clear! SO sorry you're watching your children going through this, it's so unfair. Do you think you will benefit from a confrontation?

Tom Boy, thank you! I don't think confrontation will do anything other than make me dreadfully upset but it's almost like I need to have a proper reason to not talk to her and not just all the crap that she's put me through my whole life. That's part of it though isn't it? Doubting if it was that awful even though you know it was.

Yes, I am really struggling with that at the moment. I've had a couple of confrontations with her over the past year though and have really poured my heart out and had it thrown back in my face. She just can't hear me, so I know there's no point trying again. I would probably not be at the point I'm at now without those very clear rejections, so I understand why you feel you need to confront her

Yes, mine can't hear me either. She did apologise during one immense 'telling off' I had at the end of last year for "not being able to love me enough". Weird and very double edged. An apology but also suggesting that I needed too much love (if there even is such a thing). That should have been my turning point but it was Christmas..

Femme, Iam- I can understand how your heads are swirling with the stress of all of this, trying to make sense and may be getting up the courage to take those first NC steps. I just want to emphasise what Attila said earlier, - by continuing to expose your children to the toxicity of your parents' behaviour, you are complicit in continuing the abuse to which you were subjected. I know that's a hard thing to hear, but to break the cycle you must keep your children away from them. This a proper reason. You don't have to confront. You don't have to justify or explain. You just have to do it.
When I saw my father turn his sights on my son, I got him out. He got nowhere near my son after that. This was before MN and I didn't have the insights and wisdom and experience that you have access to. Please do the right thing. For your children and ultimately for yourselves.

Ooh yes, I get comments like that. "I'm sorry I just can't say/do the right thing", meaning "your standards are so ridiculously high no one possibly could"

whitehandledkitchenknife, I get what you're saying 100%. My mother hasn't begun any abuse to my Dd (only grandchild), so I struggle with whether her abuse of me is "enough". My dd's father and his family doesn't have any contact with her by their own choice (they can't be bothered), so without my family I am the only family Dd has. And I worry how she'll cope with that, and whether she'll blame me for "driving them away".

Well done for taking that step to protect your son, without the support that we have here

white I feel like I'm being naughty though. My god I could cry and cry. My routine in the mornings is school run, then ring her. If I'm late ringing her I panic and if I don't call because I'm unavoidably busy then I'm anxious all day. I guess I need to change my routine and that will help with the breaking of contact. Wow, this is going to go against everything I've been taught!

Does she get angry if you don't call or are late calling, iamamazing?

Also, if you're anything like me, which it sounds like you are, then everything you've been taught is awful terribleness. So going against it makes a lot of sense

If I call late she often won't answer the phone. If I don't call then she won't call. I can't remember the last time she called to see how we were. She will give the silent treatment for months on end if you've done something she disagrees with and I've always thought it was me being bad. How my eyes are opening.

Even if you had genuinely upset her (as opposed to just challenging her power trip), the silent treatment for any length of time let alone months isn't a normal, reasonable response.

Femme - believe - her behaviour towards you is enough. Toxic parents don't become good grandparents. It may be that you aren't seeing anything overt at this moment, but there will come a time when your mother's behaviour towards you will be noted by your daughter (if it isn't already) and absorbed as the way that you 'deserve' to be treated. Your mother may set up a scapegoat daughter/golden grandchild scenario and seek to drive a wedge between you. At 5, she will have already taken a lot of stuff in without you necessarily noticing it.Your daughter will only know what she is taught. It is in your gift to help your daughter to feel good about herself, learn healthy boundaries and know that the two of you are good together. Why would she blame you for keeping her safe from bad people?

Iam - I can understand your anxiety about having to appease your mother or suffer the consequences via the silent treatment. You have been trained since birth to meet her needs and have none of your own. She has done such a good job on you that you feel naughty. Naughty is a word for children. Not proper grownups. You are, perhaps, stuck in the role of the naughty girl who can't do anything right for her long suffering mother. And you keep trying to find the magic solution to the problem. There isn't one. Your mother doesn't see you as an independent person separate from her, she sees you as an extension to herself and as such have no rights to independence. You have been placed in what's called an 'irresolvable conflict' - where the person you go to for comfort and safety is also the person who causes shame and anxiety. I very respectfully suggest you might want to look at counselling for this.
Your mother's behaviour is not normal. May I gently suggest that you sit back and think through some 'what's the worst that could happen?' scenarios. You don't phone her? You feel anxious. What would happen if you said to yourself, after the school run, I'm going to sit down and have a cup of tea and plan my day. I'm not going to call her. She doesn't control me. I can stop giving away my power to her. Perhaps you could work out some scripts and keep them close to refer to.
Remember, you are not bad. You have been controlled from birth. You can turn this around. You have the right to be free from this level of madness and claim some autonomy over your life.

"She has done such a good job on you that you feel naughty. Naughty is a word for children. Not proper grownups. You are, perhaps, stuck in the role of the naughty girl who can't do anything right for her long suffering mother. And you keep trying to find the magic solution to the problem. There isn't one... You have been placed in what's called an 'irresolvable conflict' - where the person you go to for comfort and safety is also the person who causes shame and anxiety."

This all completely applies to me too

And to me.

I'm struggling at the moment. Counselling is very hard work. It was only very recently I admitted just how badly I'd been abused as a child, and went (temporarily) NC with my parents. Each session in counselling I've had to ask the counsellor to slow down as I'm getting too distressed. I feel so overwhelmingly sad.

I'm not sleeping well. I keep waking up at 3 or 4 and lying there for hours thinking about it all. I'm very tired and work is getting on top of me.

Somebody tell me it gets better....

I feel the same and immediately feel naughty if my Mum is upset.

I hate those double edged comments like "sorry, I couldn't love you enough". The person manages to be critical but remains beyond reproach as they play the part of the real victim.

murmuration - your post made me wonder what it is that I really want. In my heart of hearts, I'd like to have a family that loves and appreciates me. But I also know in my head of heads (!) that the reason they scapegoat and blame is because they need to protect themselves from the full complexity of the truth of what happened, and therefore from culpability. It would be too much of a risk to their ego to accept a different version of events.

So I need to kill that hope dead. What would be left? Well, there could be peace. I could have more space and room to move on with my life without wondering constantly why this happened, or what life might have been like had things been different. I could have self-esteem that wasn't grounded on their rejection, and I could top expending emotional energy on the past. I think all those things would be victories.

iamamazing - the first step is saying it, even if you don't believe it. I think perhaps self-worth is something you have to grow into having, until it becomes a kind of habit. Normally kids would develop it at a young age, but that doesn't mean we can't grow it at a later point.

Your comment about having a 'proper' reason to go NC got me thinking. I don't know about others, but I definitely feel that I'm more vulnerable to attacks from people outside my family than perhaps the average person would be. I think there is also a grave danger that, when you're surrounded with people who tell a different story of the past to you, you can become a bit paranoid. Because that's what gaslighting does - it wouldn't be so devastatingly effective if it didn't sow some seeds of doubt. Maintaining the truth of what happens in the face of denial is exhausting. And I know that I - and I suspect many others with difficult families - feel a need to justify and to provide reasons for my choices as a result of this muddy soup of untruths that is told (and a great deal of anxiety comes with that: will I be believed? Will my reasons sound adequate? Can I explain to an outsider?) Yet there is no need to justify any of it. Our decisions are as valid as the next person's, and don't require any additional layer of explanation. You don't need to have a row if you don't want one - you can just walk away. If you feel a confrontation would help, however, that's a different matter.

Thinking of you, justawoman. I'm not in counselling at the moment but I've been struggling to sleep for weeks now and it's awful. Is there anyway you could take a day off work to just really look after yourself? Stay in bed and nap all day, havw a locely bath, watch Netflix, knit, walk in the woods or whatever looking after you would look like?

In my heart of hearts, I'd like to have a family that loves and appreciates me. But I also know in my head of heads (!) that the reason they scapegoat and blame is because they need to protect themselves from the full complexity of the truth of what happened, and therefore from culpability. It would be too much of a risk to their ego to accept a different version of events.

For this reason I think we will never be able to get what we want so badly - their understanding and remorse for how their actions affected us. THey are just too fragile to be able to allow the smallest perceived threat to their sense of self so they have to attack us instead, blindly hitting out until they feel safe again. This is SO hard for me to accept but I'm definitely on the road to accepting that for the first time and it does feel freeing in a way.

There are so many things that I struggle with that I think are directly related to how my mother treated me. I have what I've been told is a very extreme negative view of myself. I literally don't believe I have a right to be alive.

tomboy - . I know what you mean about that extremely negative self-image. I think on a daily basis, it's having to deal with thoughts and feelings that would represent some kind of extremity or crisis for people coming from a different place. But I do think there is hope, that there are ways of self-supporting and effecting change. I think a big barrier to that, however, is a sense that it's just so DAMN unfair that we are the ones having to do that work. Getting past that first hurdle of accepting that we'll never get what we want, and that we have to work hard just to achieve a normal level of self-worth, and that this is all very unfair might be the first step.

In some ways, I feel like I am trapped in some kind of dialectic that is self-pitying. I know that my version of events is true, yet it is maintained in the face of a denial of what actually happened. So holding onto the truth feels like holding onto the rejection, making it part of myself. I have to break outside of this somehow, to be more positive and more affirmative. I am not sure how to do this.

Really struggling today. Lack of sleep means I'm quite weepy and I'm fed up of it churning in my brain.

Shovetheholly, yes and that's another accusationshe's always thrown at me, that I'm self pitying and think about myself too much and need to "get over it". But without acknowledging what's happened and dealing with that there's no way anyone can "get over it"!

for you iamamazing

Hi, I'm new to MN, just checked it out for the first time yesterday, and I've seen this thread and oh my god! Everything here is so me, so my life. It's so wonderful to find that you're not alone - I have felt like a total freak for 34 years! I've actually been torturing myself off and on lately about whether I should cease contact with at least my incredibly abusive father, what that might mean for my relationship with my brother and mother etc.

Looking back it's easy for me to see now just how different both of my parents always were from others in terms of giving affection, support and so on. My earliest memory is visiting the zoo with my parents when I was three and seeing the elephants. I said, wow, look how big it's poo is! My mother didn't say a word, just coldly walked away from me and stood looking at them from the other side of the enclosure, refusing to look at me. My father then knelt down and explained that I had humiliated her and that I should not talk like that. It's only recently seeing my peers become parents and talk about the funny things their kids say and do that I've started to think, hang on, that wasn't right, was it?! I've always been extremely quiet and shy and just terrified to speak out about almost everything, found it difficult to make friends and maintain relationships, always been asked "why are you so quiet?" even to this day. I've always hated myself for this trait, tried so many times to change this aspect of myself but the more I think about it the more examples I can find in my childhood of basically being told to shut up, not to show myself or my parents up, that being like a quiet little mouse was what made me a good girl.

My father has always been a cruel and nasty man and a total narcissist, and by the time I reached puberty I started to argue back when he was being mean or unreasonable. This would result in him screaming loudly at me, sometimes threatening violence (but never actually resorting to it) and generally being intimidating by way of response. It would eventually end with him giving me the silent treatment, literally ignoring my very existence for weeks on end. My mother would take his side and always say to me "Why are you like his with your father?" and also join in with the silent treatment. My brother, 4 years younger, would naturally also do it, and my entire teenage years and early twenties were basically made up of being ignored by my whole family for weeks at a time.

I suffered with severe depression on and off, and during these times would basically hide
myself away. I was convinced I was this awful, terrible person (had to be if my own family hated me so much, right?) and developed a kind of fear of being seen or noticed by anyone in any way. My family reacted very badly to this, accusing me of avoiding them because I thought I was better than them, I would hear them laughingly calling me "your majesty" outside my bedroom door. I would sometimes not try to hide my crying when I heard them in an effort to make them see how badly I was suffering and feel sorry for me, but they ignored it time and time again. When I would start to feel a little better and try to socialise again my mother would become furious at my sudden re-appearance and angrily demand an explanation for why I had been treating her so badly.

Anyway, what I now call The Incident happened when I was 20. I had not continued my education (much to my teachers horror) and dropped out after GSCEs because I had been so riddled with anxiety that I thought I wouldn't be able to do it (my parents reaction was, well, if that's what you want). I had no job, no prospects that I could see, no friends, had never had a boyfriend, and couldn't even turn to my family for anything at all. I was so, so desperately ill with depression that time, the worst to date. I had started to cut myself, wasn't taking care of myself at all. I was pretty much a wreck with no life skills so still lived at home. My family reacted as per usual, but my father apparently decided that he didn't want me there anymore. He started to do things like scratch furniture and things like that and blamed me for it, saying I did it because I hated the family. I would protest my innocence but no one believed me. He'd actually been doing this for several years but I was too young to be thrown out of the house when he first did it, so back then it was just the silent treatment again. Then one day he pulled a plant up from my mums garden and she went absolutely nuts. She pounded at my door and presented me with a tiny suitcase and told me to get out. I was utterly shell shocked and just stood there as she ranted and raved, naturally not believing me when I said I hadn't done it. I reached for the case and she saw for the first time the cuts on my arm, and she ran into her bedroom crying. Then I could hear him saying things to her like, she always does things like this to me but I keep quiet so as not to upset you. Then he went into my brothers bedroom and told him the same thing. My mother having seen my arm saved me from actually being thrown out, but she didn't admit she knew he was lying until years later. It all just carried on as normal, my being the outcast of the family, blah blah blah, until I was finally able to sort myself out enough to move out a few years afterwards.

Now so much time has passed and on the surface I have a normal relationship with them, although don't see or speak to them often, they visit me on birthdays etc. They visited me over the weekend and sat there having cups of tea and talking about the tv and stuff and - I am consumed with hatred for him. I loathe him and detest him and pretty much freeze up when he's around. I also hate myself for having him in my life, for not having the guts to cut him out. The whole thing plays over and over in my mind. I have naturally suffered with MH issues ever since and always see things on Facebook like, family is everything and you should forgive those who have hurt you. But I think that his treatment of me even before that day is unforgivable, and on that day... I was ill as a result of my life up to that point, and the man that I should have been able to look to for help and guidance instead knew I had no friends, no money, nowhere to go and no one to turn to and tried to turn my family against me and throw me into the streets to face homelessness alone, where I am convinced I would have killed myself had my mother not seen the cuts and actually gone through with it. I can't get over it.

Now I am recently married (we eloped so I wouldn't have to have them there, otherwise I could not have gone through with it) and I am 5 weeks pregnant. I cringe at the thought of even letting him touch my baby. The mental image of him holding it... I honestly don't know if I could cope. I hate having him in my house, I hate it when I call their house and he picks up the phone. The thought that he could in some way hurt my baby... and maybe I'm paranoid but I can't shake the feeling that he would do something to my baby if left alone with it just to spite me...

Thing is, he is still married to my mother, and I don't know how she would take it if I decided this. She herself is no saint, and I question whether or not I want to maintain a relationship with her too. She has been so cruel and nasty a mother to me, neglectful and just never there for me and always slagging me off behind my back for this and that. But my father is abusive to her as well, gaslighting all the time and generally being awful and manipulative. She doesn't have any friends at all and no life really outside of their very sheltered and insular little bubble and I'd feel so guilty for leaving her alone with him. Also she would never be able to have a real relationship with the baby, not that I'm thrilled about her having one either. I think I'd really be happier if they were both gone from my life, but I'd feel so bad for her. She is a lonely woman, and through I completely think that that is her own fault, it still makes me feel bad to remove myself from her life. I think she's always tried to use me as a friend since she never had any, and a lot of her issues with me when I was a kid was because I would respond to her various complaints and issues like a child would and not like a grown up friend would. I do pity her to some extent, but like I say it's her own fault.

And then there's my brother. We have never discussed any of this. Our relationship is strained and to me feels quite fake. It's not his fault, I think he was basically brought up to hate me, but he's someone I can't get a handle on. It's either he acts like he despises me and sees me out of obligation, or he's going through a period of depression and wants to complain with me about our parents, or his current phase of (for the second time) being a born-again Christian and strictly adhering to the whole honour your mother and father thing, steadfastly refusing to see fault with them and passive aggressively having digs at me for not seeing them more often, and that I'll regret it when they're gone. I think I would lose him if I cut either one or both of my parents out of my life. This in itself doesn't bother me that much, we've never had a good relationship and I feel like it's pretty much always going to be impossible. But he has a little boy and it would break my heart if I weren't allowed to see him. If he grew up hearing the nasty things they would inevitably always say about me, thinking I was this awful person who he should never speak to. I'd like my baby to have his or her cousin, but I never knew any of mine (neither parent have ever had a relationship with any of their own siblings) and I feel like the family is doomed to repeat history but with me on the outside, forever the black sheep and bad guy they always said I was.

The other thing is - I don't think I know how to be a mother. I'm terrified of the same thing happening, that I'll just be awful and my baby will grow up to hate me just as I hate them. Should I stay for the sake of trying to show my baby what a family is, or should I go and risk teaching them that parents can be discarded once you're old enough?

I know that I'm not to blame for any of this, and I also know that I would not accept the treatment I have received in any other type of relationship. Maybe I should think about teaching my baby that, if I do end up being a horrible mother and making them feel the way I have ended up feeling that they should leave me, even though that would hurt me. I don't know.

Anyway, sorry for butting in with this gigantic rant for my very first post on MN! I've never told anyone any of this apart from DH. Having seen the thread and identifying with it so much I just had to 'get it out'!! :)