"But we took you to Stately Homes" - survivors of dysfunctional and toxic families

[pocketsaviour]

It's October 2016, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
Oct 14 – Dec 14
Dec 14 – March 15
March 2015 - Nov 2015
Nov 2015 - Feb 2016
Feb 2016 - Oct 2016

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Tomboy I struggle with self care. I tend more towards mindless eating than forgetting to eat, but same deal essentially.
I think we're set up to be bad at self care from the start - our parents, for various reasons (they like us dependent, they can't be bothered, they don't know how to do self care themselves) are unlikely to have taught us healthy habits so it's all a bit conscious and effortful. Then on top you've maybe got some of the coping mechanisms - comfort eating (hello)/undereating, drinking, drugs, various habits - that you may have picked up along the way. It's a heavy burden to carry even when you're not also trying to make changes to the rest of your life.

I've been given a daily exercise target and meditation thing to do by my therapist and I'm just reflecting on the fact that if it weren't for him telling me to do it, there's no way I would follow through with it, even though I know that both meditation and exercise would help me deal with the stress of the changes I'm trying to make and even just life generally. I'd give up, if it didn't make me feel 100% better in 2 days. It's something I'm trying to figure out, something associated with the NPD and the sort of back-reflected value system you end up with as a child of a narcissist: there's a feeling of it not being worth doing anything if you're not going to be the best, that you should be able to do the same as everyone else in half the time with twice as good results; being able to look at other people's lives and have sympathy, to weigh up their tragedies and see how they've affected them, even as you discount your own. It's one of those parts of my life where I have a rickety scaffold of conscious thought and rules of thumb that allow me to do the sensible thing, even when my feelings are pointing me in another direction.

I struggle with self-care in the sense that I feel bad about doing it. Like I shouldn't be doing things whose sole purpose is to make myself feel better. Like my nurse (for my chronic condition) suggested that I take some time to 'rest' in the middle of the working day, and I really really pushed back emotionally about the act, like it was the worst thing ever. But I gave it a try, and have actually started meditating around lunch time when I can.

And it's made a huge difference - it really helps me get through the day when I feel like I'm about to fall down. But instead of this being a positive thing, I'm finding I'm panicking - I'm not quite sure how to describe it, but I have a sense that now that I've found something that helps me it's bad and I shouldn't have to do something to be better. I should just be better. The fact that there is something that I can do to help myself highlights the fact that without that, I'm failing to do that helping on my own, and if I can be better, why I can't I just get there on will-power alone instead of having to actually take some action steps to get there? And thus the thing I'm doing becomes a symptom of the problem which I should try to eliminate, not (what it is in fact) its solution. Not sure if I'm making any sense. But I'm trying to fight against that feeling, so that I can actually do things which help me.

Thanks for the kind words about my DD. I guess I'm hypersensitive there because of my health issues. I read these books and there are examples about the toxic parents who just sleep all day and prioritise their naps over their kids and make them being quiet, and the kids live in terror of 'hurting Mummy' or whatever. But the thing is I do need a nap on the weekends (and once during the week - I've arranged flexible workingn to come home one afternoon), otherwise I just can't operate. I try to do fun things with DD to balance it out, but it just breaks my heart when she suggests 'lying down games' that I can play with her if I've said I need a rest. :( I want to be up and running out with her whenever she wants.

Yes - struggle with consistent self care too, and viewing things as such. I have the basics covered - clean clothes, showers, brush teeth, occasional hair cut but really looking after myself both mentally and physically has always been a low priority to the point of self sabotage/abuse.

Through recent counselling I realise just how important it is not just for myself but for those around me and it is far from 'selfish'.

I haven't explored why not taking care of yourself is so related but I guess growing up having your primary care givers caring for you in a minimally acceptable way means that it becomes a habit/is what is ok for you? Also, maybe, seeing really toxic people in your life make their self care their highest priority gives it selfish edge?

My background is overtly dysfunctional (mother died when I was young, neglectful father (at times very violent)) but it is the crushing disappointment of realising that DH's seemingly wonderfully 'normal' family is actually very dysfunctional (PIL have strong covert narcissist traits - both of them - in different ways. Their needs and their self care is the highest priority of all!) that has pushed me into really trying to get to grips with this.

We're LC/VLC with DH's FOO now but I find myself thinking about 'they way they are' and all the things they have done/said over the years (and how much power we have ended up giving them in our lives) occupies my thoughts far too much still. It is why I am on this thread right now. I've put up the boundaries and shed the guilt (I think!) but still they have this power and the draining effect of this means there is less energy left of making positive changes. I don't seem to be able to stop it though!

Toomuch, yes I relate to a lot of that, I've never really stuck with anything as I can't bear the fact that I fail (as everyone does when they first try something). And I do always give a lot of thought to why a person behaves how they do, while giving myself absolutely no leeway or understanding despite my own reasons.

Murmuration, I have a friend who has MS and she needs a nap every day or else the fatigue just overwhelms her. She had a nanny look after her son while she napped and he's now at school so she sleeps when she's there. If she didn't have the nap she wouldn't be able to parent properly. Guilt doesn't come into it. It'd be like a diabetic feeling guilty about taking insulin! You do what you need to do.

I was thinking about Christmas (again) today and the thought of not being in contact triggered a really strong physical sick feeling. I suddenly realised that that wasn't because I was feeling sadness or regret or nostalgia or longing, but fear. Fear of what she will say/do. That in itself is at least indicative of a very problematic relationship, I think.

murmuration I bet that by understanding your condition and doing what you need to to look after yourself, you're showing your daughter a really positive vision of how to self care. Your daughter won't need to worry about "hurting mummy" because she'll be secure in the knowledge that you know how to look after yourself, that you have clear boundaries with her, and that she's not in any doubt or danger of hurting you by accident.
Have you come across the idea of good enough parenting? What I find really comforting about that is the idea of disillusionment with parents being a natural and positive step in a child's development - learning (at the appropriate pace, and always while feeling safe and cared for) that we have our limits, we're not perfect, allows kids to start separating off from us, valuing their own opinion, and gaining confidence in their ability to do things themselves. It's part of the transfer of responsibility that we need to do before they're grown up.
(Personally I think "good enough parenting" is a damn sight harder to achieve than "perfect parenting" because you have to sit back and shut the fuck up the whole time, which I find infinitely harder than mixing in and doing everything for them!)

I also (and I'm right off topic now, but I'm on a roll) offer you my favourite Terry Pratchett quote which is actually a misquote of someone else: "The objection to fairy stories is that they tell children there are dragons. But children have always known there are dragons. Fairy stories tell children that dragons can be killed."
We've all survived (somehow) some really scary situations as kids and it's natural to want to make everything perfect when you once have kids. But difficulty, scary things, are part of life. Our job as parents (I think) is to help them equip themselves with the weapons they need to fight their own dragons when the time comes.

Greenhen I have a similar situation in that my FIL is basically my mother but with the sound turned down a bit. I don't fucking like him. DH is your classic lost child, DMIL is the classic enabler, "don't provoke him, you know what he's like" sort of nonsense. But it's all just a bit less bad than with my mother. So every now and then my DH will get pressure from them to come and visit, for a week, look after the kids, and I'm always the bad guy for saying no. It's fine, I don't mind being the bad guy any more.

Tomboy remember that if you say no to Christmas and she kicks off at you, you don't have to take that shit. Walk away, put the phone down. If she comes by the house, don't answer the door. You don't have to justify, defend, or explain your actions, you don't have to get her to accept your reasons. Just let her be angry on her own. She can take care of her own emotions for once.

YES to the struggling with self-care. I have a friend who is very, very into self-care, in the sense that she constantly has absolutely everything and anything she wants, from beauty treatments to massage to therapy - you name it! And I find myself getting irritated that it's so easy for her to do all of this stuff, and so damn hard for me to do something as basic as cook food if it's just for me and not for someone else (I have NEVER done this). It's very unfair of me to put my issues onto her - and doesn't shed the nicest light on my character. But sharing in the name of honesty.

More counselling today. We talked about 'past selves' in ways that were really helpful. My counsellor is quite into something called 'psychosynthesis' and she thinks we have multiple 'bits' to our personality. Going into these really helped me to understand the destructive thought patterns I'm experiencing - and how they relate to the past. Putting a link to the approach here in case anyone thinks it might help them too:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosynthesis

Oh, interesting links there - I'll have to wait until I have more of a mind to read them, though.

shove, 'past selves' reminds me of stuff I've been reading about Buddism recently (I've found a lot of support for self-care in there, actually), where there is concept that is there no 'self' because it is always changing and interconnected with everything around us. Letting go of identifying so much of "me" in my past has made some things easier - that wasn't me-now, it was me-then, and me-then had a different life-experience and thus acted and reacted differently. It probably also helps that I changed my forename as a teenager :) so my younger memories can easily be identified to old-name like she's a different person.

That's so perfectly put murmuration (my goodness, you write beautifully!)

It seems to be about acknowledging a temporal difference between now and then, but also different parts of yourself - a self that is frightened and wants to be 'good', a self that is rebellious and rejects parental standards of goodness, a self that is hard-working, a self that is lazy etc. And seeing them as pieces of you that are in a kind of conversation - and, as a result of that, being able to develop new kinds of self in future that are less bound by the same dynamics and rules! I have found it quite liberating because a lot of what I feel is, frankly, contradictory! And this helps me understand it!

I've done Psychosynthesis, Shovetheholly. I had to really visualise my "Critic" part and then conjure up a Supporter to tell that bit to eff off. My Critic looked exactly like my mother funnily enough, even though I hadn't even begun to see the truth in what she's like at that time.

I'm the same with food, I'm a good cook and I can whip up great meals for other people but if it's just me? Absolutely no motivation.

I do actually struggle to stick to even a basic skin care routine and often don't brush my teeth before bed. Ive always put it down to being "lazy" as that's what I was told I was growing up, but I'm realising now it's probably more me not feeling worthy. I've been much better recently for realising that and telling myself I am important enough to brush my teeth!

Wow. Thanks for this thread (again). The self care thing is a bit of a revelation!
I care for others very well but my husband buys easy lunches etc for me as he knows I don't feed myself properly. HATE preparing food - Amen to the lazy comment TomboyFemme.
In the spirit of honesty I don't wear make up, if I do I don't take it off. And I only clean my teeth once a day - this is definitely because I wasn't monitored as a child, now it's just an ingrained habit.

And there was me thinking I was just a run of the mill slovenly bitch. It's great being able to blame everything on your parents!

Not been on here for a while and just catching up.
Completely agree with the lack of self care. It's funny how we all had different kinds of neglect and abuse growing up but a lot of the resulting behaviours are similar.
I've got a few days off work and I'm meant to be resting but feel like I should be doing stuff in the house and I'm just being lazy.
I hardly ever make an effort with my appearance, only make up I ever wear is concealer to cover the bags under my eyes. I rarely get a haircut or have any beauty treatments. The concept of doing this on a regular basis seems really strange to me. Although I'm aware lots of people take time out for themselves and see it as necessary.
To change the topic slightly I've been considering going back to uni in a couple of years to do a psychology degree. I wanted to do this years ago but my M said that people only did that because they thought something was wrong with themselves. I was still very much in the stage of trying to make her 'love' me so I did something else. I'm unsure if I still want to do it because I feel 'damaged' in some way or if it's something I would genuinely love to do. Has anyone else had anything similar? I get really uncertain of my own opinions and feelings sometimes.

Hello all, just popping in for a bit of a hand hold; struggling with being NC with mother, grandmother and brother at the moment.

Giving birth to DC a few months ago has really made me feel so upset and alone. None of my family have been to see the baby not even on my dad's side

My mother has been telling people I won't let her come to visit when she is the one who cut me off and hasn't even been in contact to ask about visiting.

My brother hasn't made any contact either even though he is an uncle for the first time a few days after I gave birth he posted a picture of him holding his friends new born baby on Facebook I felt like I'd been stabbed in the heart.

I feel so hurt that they don't care about me dh's family keep visiting and it makes me feel even more lonely. everyone from the baby groups has their mum's to help and visiting and no one cares enough to even try and call to see how we are? I can't imagine ever treating DC in the same way.

Please remind me that I'm better off without these horrible people in my life I feel so sad about it all at the moment

Sorry for the very self involved post I'm just so sad about everything right now I'm not very good at offering any kind of support at the moment sorry pretty selfish I suppose

Aw Fuzzy, have an unmumsnetty hug from me. It must be so painful for you - especially with the birth of your DC recently. I know how it feels as my dad has gone NC with me (long back story) its taken over a year to feel okay again but the heart stabs when you feel the loss never really goes away.

I can only remind you gently that no mother, grandmother or indeed brother worth their salt would treat you and your little family like this - I also cannot imagine doing it to my DC's. Just try and remember its THEM not YOU, not you at all. Keep your family that love you close and try and banish them from your thoughts. Its them that will miss out not you xx

Sleepyhay I regret not doing psychology. Narcissists make very empathetic children and I think with that and a hefty dose of life experience being a counsellor could have been an option. So my feeling is that
a) it might help you with your self
b) you might be very good at helping others
Hope this helps.

"I feel so hurt that they don't care about me dh's family keep visiting
Please remind me that I'm better off without these horrible people in my life"

This tells me that you are.
I'm sorry they're so crap. You deserve so much more xx

Sleepyhay, I also regret not doing psychology. If you imagine never doing psychology and carrying on doing whatever it is you're doing now, how do you feel?

I haven't explored why not taking care of yourself is so related but I guess growing up having your primary care givers caring for you in a minimally acceptable way means that it becomes a habit/is what is ok for you? Also, maybe, seeing really toxic people in your life make their self care their highest priority gives it selfish edge?
^^
Another one here regarding having no self care, although I'm working on it.
Didn't clean my teeth until I was 12-ish. Was mortified when the school dentist came to do a check up on pupils teeth. Not fit, they said about mine.
Not sure if they wrote to my parents, but they never followed it up. Never
said anything. Surely my breath must have been bad, but no.....not a word.

I make myself wear makeup for work. It takes all my strength to do it, but it has done wonders for my confidence.

sleepyhay I agree with fc301 about psychology course and what it could mean for you, sorry you regret you didn't do it yourself either Tomboy. Would you consider doing it as an open university course?

Fuzzywuzzy it takes all of our strength to try to comprehend what has has happened to ourselves, let alone try to support others.
Look after yourself.

I feel like I've been an absolutely terrible mother today. Well, all weekend actually. I love my daughter so much, and I try so hard and I'm so horribly aware of all the ways I can potentially eff her up and yet I still find myself snapping at her, losing my patience, shouting - and I had two meltdowns this weekend where I just really screamed at her. I feel like the worst mother in the world. I feel like I'm damaging her. Even without the shouting she is so sensitive and tends towards pessimism and I think this must be the result of having a depressed, messed up mother. I'm a single mother and she's my only child so I have failed to give her a family, it's just her and me and I feel like that must be really hard for her. I do talk to her after and apologise for shouting but what must it be doing to her? It sounds like most of you are great parents because you've seen how bad your parents were and it's made you go the opposite direction. But I seem to fall into the same patterns even though I know they're wrong.

Oh TomboyFemme a big hug from me.
Was just having a heart to heart with DH today about whether I really ffed things up with my eldest (with ignorance of abuse and emotional baggage). I truly believe the REALLY shit mothers are the ones who sail forward without a care. GOOD mothers ask themselves every day was I good enough??
If she is old enough maybe you could try explaining? My 14 yr old has formed some understanding this year of what I'm going through & in a funny way maybe it's helped our relationship that I'm not pretending to have all the answers???
Hope so anyway. I find the more I put my parents in the past the less angry I get with her (as I could do no right with M&D I tended to fly off the handle with the normal teenage "nothing u do is good enough" from my DD).
God I'm rambling I hope this makes sense.
You have my sympathy take care x

Tomboy, fc01 think I will definitely look into the psychology degree, it's not practical at the moment but could be doable in a couple of years. I just need to ignore her voice in my head. I think I just avoid things I really want to do in case I fail at them. I can even hear her smug laughter now at the thought of it.
tomboy fwiw I think the fact that you're worried about the impact your behaviour has on your child already makes you a better parent. I also think every parent loses it with their children at some point and that's with family support. You're doing this on your own and I can only imagine how hard that can be. Does your DD know that you love her? How old is she? My DHs parents used to shout and on occasion smack him. I'm not condoning the hitting but he still knew he was loved as they were able to show it. They never used emotional blackmail or saw their children as an extension of themselves. I guess im just trying to say that no one is the perfect, calm, rational parent all of the time but it's how you treat your children the majority of the time that counts.

Thank you sleepy and fc. Dd is 5. I tell her constantly how much I love her, how happy I am to have her.

I find the more I put my parents in the past the less angry I get with her (as I could do no right with M&D I tended to fly off the handle with the normal teenage "nothing u do is good enough" from my DD).

Yes, it's when something DD does triggers dome memory or learned behaviour or shameful/painful/fearful feeling in me that I lose it. How can I get my mother out of my head so I can just be a good parent to my poor dd?

I've been off the thread for awhile, so haven't caught up properly.

I get the minimal level of self care, too. Thank you (all) for that discussion.
I am a sahm, thankfully. I am no make up, utilitarian clothes (jeans, polo shirt-a step up from T-shirts) and "functional" shoes-trail hikers mostly. Hair-straight and long and I have a maintenance trim every two years. I have never colored my hair. I brush my teeth once a day, occasionally miss if I fall asleep on the sofa and drag myself to bed at stupid o'clock.

I was somewhat this way growing up. I was the invisible one. Third of three girls. I was a "tomboy". My mother did ask/require/encourage me to wear a dress to school twice a week which I suffered through. But she wouldn't take me shopping so I wore hand me downs.

The dynamics are complex, but I think I can associate it (now) with being a grey rock - the strategy to avoid notice or attention from the emotional abusers. My mom's indifference, my sisters were fighting all. The. Time. My dad was deaf so there wasn't much spontaneous conversation. He put out the fires so to speak but there wasn't the proactive nurturing there so I merely existed rather than thrived.

I am returning to counseling next month (for other reasons) and will address this, so thank you again.