The ignoring.....not so gaaaaa (part 2)

[FV45]

So ex finally left the home yesterday.
Slept ok and atmosphere in home is much lighter.

Residency issues are ongoing. As it stands I don't know what's happening at the weekend.

I am collecting DS2 from after school club and taking him to school tomorrow. Ex collecting from school. Ex won't discuss timings for me to collect DS2 from him on Saturday morning. Suspect he plans to drop him here at his convenience.

Am seeing sol and going to meditation MIAM soon with view to court so not sure what I can do until then, aside from log everything.

Well, knock me over with a feather!

Mr Postman brought me a letter for ex's sol yesterday.
I have loads of questions, but I wonder if any of you can help me with just a couple (maybe I should go to the legal boards).

He's written a Position Statement.
The letter says

"This PS has been approved by my client and, in the absence of any agreement form you, will represent his position at Court. It is however at the moment undated and unsigned in the hope that agreement can be reached and it will not then be required by the court.

[Ex] will be represented at Court by [name] of Counsel. If you are instructing solcitors to represent you or direct access Counsel, please provide me with their details."

If you are able to afgee the arrangemetns so that each of you have a 'Live With' Order in respect of [DS2], on the basis of the attached PS, I would be grateful if you could confirm by 23rd Jan"

My Qs.

1. If agreement can be reached, do we still need to go to Court ie what does it mean "not then be required by the Court" What is "it"?

2. What does "of Counsel" mean?

3. What does "...or direct access Counsel" mean? I don't understand the way it's worded.

4. What is a "Live With" Order?

It does look like his sol has said that no Judge would agree to the current set up so told him to propose something better. He's managed to change his working hours and the proposal is for DS2 to be with us the same days week on week with alternate w/e. Over 14 days I would have DS2 8 nights and ex 6 nights.

There's also lots of blather about how he (ex) provides great child care and how I don't. Yeah...well if I only worked 12 days out of 28 I'd be around more as well. Ya boo.

Oh and how I have to take DS2 in the car to drop DS1 at the bus stop. As if that's a criticism..he doesn't do a single bus run for DS1. But I guess I will have to stomach all that crap and just focus on the residency.

I wonder if I can phone the person who sent the letter and ask them to explain? It's mainly just the language and terms I don't understand, I'm not asking for their advice, just clarification on what their letter means and to ask them why they use some wanky language

Personally having read all your dealing with your EX over last year I would go for a legally binding order so he can not continue to dictate visitation as he has and is now. I would also suggest you get all important dates e.g. Christmas, birthdays set in stone. And how much notice each party has to give for holidays, change in visitation otherwise you are going to spend the next 10 plus years dealing with crap.

My Qs.
1) If agreement can be reached, do we still need to go to Court ie what does it mean "not then be required by the Court" What is "it"?
You don't have to go to court, if you can agree between you. However such agreements are not binding, if you feel that your ex will not stick to such an agreement, you can ask for it to be written into a consent order. Worthwhile, since you've already shelled out your £215 for the CAO anyway!

Basically, they're offering you "something" to avoid going to court. It's up to you whether or not you feel what you are being offered is reasonable, or if you be better off going to court and seeing what the judge eventually orders

2) What does "of Counsel" mean?
I think this means the dickhead is shelling out for a barrister. He must have deep pockets if he's having a barrister represent him at a first hearing, waste of bloody money.

3) What does "...or direct access Counsel" mean? I don't understand the way it's worded.
Sounds like they are asking if you're instructing a solicitor, or barrister.

4) What is a "Live With" Order?
As a general rule, a CAO states who the child/ren "live with", and who they "spend time with", and divvy up the time accordingly.

It does look like his sol has said that no Judge would agree to the current set up so told him to propose something better. He's managed to change his working hours and the proposal is for DS2 to be with us the same days week on week with alternate w/e. Over 14 days I would have DS2 8 nights and ex 6 nights.
How do you feel about this? On the face of it I'd say that's a great improvement.

There's also lots of blather about how he (ex) provides great child care and how I don't. Yeah...well if I only worked 12 days out of 28 I'd be around more as well. Ya boo.
Total BS, and irrelevant. He only provides "great child care" because you pick up the slack when he refuses to have DS.

Oh and how I have to take DS2 in the car to drop DS1 at the bus stop. As if that's a criticism..he doesn't do a single bus run for DS1. But I guess I will have to stomach all that crap and just focus on the residency.
You'd be well within your rights to insist that he does his fair share of running about, but you'll have to decide whether or not it's a fight worth your energy.

YY to what Clutterbugsmum says about birthdays/Xmas/holidays, and how these are divvied up.

Can they savy people answer this.

If FV45 agrees to his new proposal and inserts various things about school holiday/Christmas/Birthdays... also that he is not to be taken out of school for holidays unless it is authorised (by the school, would be a mistake to say both parents as he would deliberately block FV45 doing it)

Can she then

1. Make it part of the agreement that they go to court still to get it rubber stamped?
2. Get a power of arrest attached to it for when he is an arse and doesn't return DS2 as per the agree court rubber stamped arrangement?

1. Make it part of the agreement that they go to court still to get it rubber stamped?
If they agree, FV45 can giver her assent to the proposal, providing that the agreement is made into a court order (this is known as a consent order).

2. Get a power of arrest attached to it for when he is an arse and doesn't return DS2 as per the agree court rubber stamped arrangement?
Very rare... Child arrangements are a civil matter, and without extenuating circumstances I doubt a judge would slap this onto a court order. I'm yet to speak to anyone that has had this put into a court order.

This is what frustrates me so they can agree, get it turned into a consent order and he can still do the f*ck he wants.

If he consistently doesn't stick to a consent order what are the penalties FV45 could hope to have imposed on him?

I think the idea is that the court tends to wait until the agreement breaks down before using The Big Stick. Some flexibility is expected for parents to work out the odd issue between themselves without having to drag it back to court every time a problem arises.

If FV45's ex continually or seriously breaches the order she can take it back to court for enforcement (urgently if the situation requires), where she can ask for ex's contact time to be reduced to something more manageable, or the judge can see if unpaid work, a fine, or imprisonment would be suitable.

I've never heard of anyone being sent to jail for breaching a CAO, but it is technically possible. I believe it was being looked at for the Rebecca Minnock case where she went on the run with the child... Obviously this was an extreme case though, and in the end the father didn't push for such sanctions.

c3pu digs out his CAO

And I quote:

"Where a Child Arrangements Order is in force: If you do not comply with a provision of this Child Arrangements Order -

(a) You may be held in contempt of court and be committed to prison or fined; and/or
(b) The court may make an order requiring you to undertake unpaid work ("an enforcement order") and/or and order that you pay financial compensation.

So glad he clearly doesn't want to go to court and do agree that he has been advised that the current set up would be unacceptable.

What would your realistic but ideal access arrangements be?

This is really good news and even if you are happy with what he has proposed I suggest you take this opportunity to discuss flexibility, holidays, Christmas, birthdays etc., pick ups drop offs, spare school uniform.

Personally for the sake of a letter or two I would instruct a solicitor to cover yourself.... if you wanted to add a note about his parenting then do so but I suspect it's been said as a scare tactic to get you to comply.

I don't know if there is anything that can completely cover you legally, look at the lady who had sole custody but the courts still didn't return her son.

Is ex asking for a 'lives with' order. If so you really need to check what that means and what it could mean.

I could be wrong but would assume that this is open to negotiation and have asked for the max of what would be reasonable. Ex has been told they will insist of consistency and the only way he can have DS2 on the same days is if he changes his work hours and has him slightly less.

I know he is young but personally I would run it by DS2 and ask if he would be happy with this - assuming you are of course.

Please do get legal advice before you agree to any 'living with' order. I do think a solicitor should look over what you might agree to, just to be safe.

Thank you all so much. Really.

Lots to think about. I have contacted my divorce sol and she will call me FOC today and has agreed a fixed fee face to face meeting next week.

Excellent news! Really pleased to hear that there may be a resolution to this.

Just gone over the Position Statement with fine tooth comb and I'm MAD.
Not so much what he's proposing, but all the bloody waffle about how he's been primary carer (bollocks...only when DS2 went to school did he start doing more with him) and how many activities they do...bla bla.
He just looks stupid. Who do think funded all that? Who do they think actually looked after the welfare of the boys (all school admin, new shoes, dentist appts, got food in the house, made sure they had clean bed linen etc)?

He might just as well have put "I am a Disney Dad, please see online definition".

Hoping the judge will see through that. He makes it look like me working is something I do to avoid my other responsibilities. Twat.

In other news I have won an iPad mini (will sell to pay for solicitor!) AND I just went for a most glorious run across the frosty fields.

Congrats on the iPad.

I'm sure it's all kind of scare tactics, kind of an underlying 'he has the freedom to provide the best care for DS2' - or - it has something to do with the 'living with' thingy.

Unfortunately, if this is going before a judge then in my strong opinion is that you should reply (via solicitor) stating your position. It's sad because it is unnecessary arguing which costs 'real' money. So do make a list to take with you, all that you listed plus Beavers etc. Plus I'm sure your solicitor can find legal jargon for Disney Dad! I just want to make sure you are covered from all angles.

Also if you do need to go that route then as he mentioned DS2 having to accompany you to take DS1 then you can mention that DS2 is unhappy about being left along at night in strange places.

Hour long call with sol. All questions answered and I know how to proceed.

I need to email his sol.

I will (just to get it off my chest) state my case in response to how great a dad he is.

Then I will in principal agree to the new rota as long as he agrees to the list of things I plan to add. Regarding the Live With order and my concern that ex takes him to India, sol thinks I might struggle with that, but if we agree to split all holidays then he will have max 3 weeks (over summer) to take him and I hope he won't think it's worth it.

Lots of notes taken and feeling in control.

Well done KOKO

Good stuff.

India? Did I miss something?

Hour long call with sol. All questions answered and I know how to proceed.

I need to email his sol.

I will (just to get it off my chest) state my case in response to how great a dad he is.

Perhaps worth finishing that particular paragraph with something along the lines of "However as we are so close to reaching an agreement it may be more constructive to focus on finding a mutually agreeable solution, than comparing our parenting."
He's a dick lol.

Then I will in principal agree to the new rota as long as he agrees to the list of things I plan to add. Regarding the Live With order and my concern that ex takes him to India, sol thinks I might struggle with that, but if we agree to split all holidays then he will have max 3 weeks (over summer) to take him and I hope he won't think it's worth it.
This sounds excellent. I don't think the "live with" part is anything to worry about particularly, but it may be worth clarifying who will be claiming child benefit/tax credits, if any.

As for trips abroad, a CAO gives the parties the ability to take the child abroad for 28 days without the permission of the other parent. Worth bearing in mind.

Lots of notes taken and feeling in control.
Fantastic. Sounds like the end (of this chapter at least) could be in sight.

quick Q. ex's sol asks that I reply "by the 23rd".
Do you think that includes the 23rd or do I need to get something to her today?

re: India
Ex asked (ages ago and as part of the financial settlement...boggle), to take DS2 to India for 2 or 3 months.
I am not happy about that at all. Not at his young age, so far away, apart from me.

I am the one with most Indian connections (I am 1/2 Indian so have a lot of family there) and it was me that gave ex his love of the wonderful continent. So, I admit there is an element of "hands off the legacy I want to leave my kids" but obv realise that's nothing to do with residency or holiday away etc.

Looks like I might not be able to stop him going for a shorter period - though lucky him to have the £££

quick Q. ex's sol asks that I reply "by the 23rd".
Do you think that includes the 23rd or do I need to get something to her today?

I think the sooner the better, but if it arrives outside of their "deadline" I hardly think it will scupper the deal if you have reached an agreement.

Ex asked (ages ago and as part of the financial settlement...boggle), to take DS2 to India for 2 or 3 months. I am not happy about that at all. Not at his young age, so far away, apart from me.

I think 3 months is a bit pie in the sky! He won't get approval from the school for it. I'd be going for a line in the agreement that neither party will take the child out of school without the school authorising it. If you get wind of him trying to wrangle a such a thing, you can apply for a specific issue order to prevent it.

Shorter periods, yes I think if it's not unreasonable and it's outside of term time you'll have to suck it up and let it happen, so long as the same flexibility is afforded to you.

Thanks. I want to work on my letter this weekend, rather than bash out some brain dump while I'm meant to be working and someone is building a conservatory 2 feet from my office and driving me to distraction

We took DS1 to India for 3 months when he was 7. We didn't get authorisation from the school - had to withdraw him completely and then re-enrol him. It was fine and I have no problems education wise.

Perhaps phone the solicitors and explain when they will have your response?

Ex may argue that the previous trip has set a precedent, but ultimately I think 3 months with one parent is going to raise a few eyebrows, as when the other parent gets a similar amount of 1-1 time half the year has gone by... Hardly practical. Keeping it to shorter trips, particularly as DS's education progresses, will probably be more manageable.

Meh....just emailed the sol and got out of office reply.
So, she can bloody well wait until Monday then!

I told her I'd email more fully over the weekend cos I really want to spend my weekend writing to solicitors