Was this rape/sexual abuse of some sort?

[breakfastatchanel]

This is something that happened a few years ago when I was at University living on campus in my first year. But I am just thinking about it now because something I read reminded me of it. And I'm curious if this would actually be considered rape or sexual abuse of some sort? I never thought it was before but now I'm wondering.

So basically after a night out I went back with this guy to his room (in one of the accommodation on campus). I wasn't that drunk, I can remember everything that happened and was perfectly lucid so that wasn't really an issue. But anyway I for some reason thought it was a good idea to have be promiscuous with boys I hardly knew because everyone else seemed to be doing it. Anyway, I guess we were kissing on the bed and then he took off my underwear and started to give me oral sex. I remember not liking as it was quite rough and regretting my decision but I pretended to be enjoying it or at least I didn't do anything and just put up with it trying to convince myself it was fine (not his fault though) anyway then he turned me over unto my front and carried on giving me oral sex and using his hands. Then he suddenly started to have sex with me which caught me by surprise. I would have had sex with him but I would never have agreed to do it with no condom. But once he started I just decided that the risk of infection and pregnancy was already there and I would already have to go to the clinic in the morning anyway so I didn't say anything and just let him carry on without any sign. I didn't like it either but I didn't want to cause any embarrassment for me or him so I just waited for it to be over and pretended it was okay.

I took the morning after pill the next day and then about a week later I went to the clinic to get checked out. Because I actually had thrush from it (for the only time in my life) but wanted to get checked out anyway. The nurse wanted to hear what happened and was asking questions and I told her that I would never normally have unprotected sex and she asked questions I ended up explaining what happened just so she wouldn't think I was reckless and because she was asking. I remember she seemed to be sympathetic and take it quite seriously when I told her which I was surprised about because I thought it was all me and normal. But she never said it was sexual assault or anything like that I just remember her face and the way she spoke like she felt bad for me rather than saying it was all my fault. i dunno though.

So what would this be classed as? Or would it just be me having sex that I didn't want to have but not saying anything and getting myself into a silly position (so to speak).

It's not really bothering me personally and never really did and it was ages ago anyway but I'm just curious in general about this kind of thing. Thanks.

p.s. Also in my second year of university I remember I was kissed against my will twice by two different people on two different occasions. I did the same thing and just pretended it was fine and mutual so I didn't pull away straight away to avoid embarrassment because it was both people I knew who hung around with the same people as me so i didn't want things to be awkward if they thought they had imposed on me. So I just waited a few seconds and then pulled away and just continued to act as friends. One of them did up against a wall. Both times it was totally by surprise and quite forceful. Was that sexual assault? Even though it was just kissing?

Procrastinating, I totally agree. Asking for unprotected sex on a one night stand would have likely been no. However, inserting his penis may have made her feel like 'oh he's started now, I'm going to have to be tested anyway ' or 'if I make him stop now, what might he do?' (they don't know each other remember ).

What he did was most definitely sly and totally inappropriate.

He is an idiot for not using a condom. But in my opinion, that's not rape.

It's pretty simple, if you don't want it, say no!

Thank you too Jiggy I hope you managed to get abit more sleep, I had to take myself away from the thread for abit and eventfully got an hour before I've had to get up with the kids.

It's really not about what your opinion is, user. There is a requirement to take sufficient steps to obtain consent to sex. This is generally needed by the person who initiates the sex act. To not do so risks a conviction for rape or sexual assault. You are likely to get away with it, overall. Juries are full of people who believe rape myths and victim blame. But it's not a risk-free enterprise, and you might not. I'd err on the side of caution if I were you.

I think he behaved very badly. Every guy I've ever been with, without exception, has always asked, like verbally asked before first time sex. Even the one, one night stand I had.

Doing what he did without a condom makes it so much worse.

If I kiss someone that's not automatic consent to oral sex. If I let someone give me oral sex that's not automatic consent to PIV sex. I don't understand why that seems so difficult to grasp for some people.

This was a first time meeting. Not an established relationship with boundaries known.

Consent should be enthusiastically given. I would imagine that the guy in this case doubts he did anything wrong. I would imagine that the guy who I went home with once who leaned over me and pushed and pushed and pushed me to have sex until I gave in doesn't think he did either. But just because I went along with it doesn't make it right. Feeling like you have no choice but to do something isn't a choice.

I'm sorry to hear what happened to you Millpool.

We don't know if he thinks he did anything wrong. He may well know it was wrong penetrating the op without her knowledge, just as the guy that badgered you. It's very easy to say 'he didn't know'; i takes away all liability for action.

To those worried about your sons: I think that was more a statement than an actual serious concern, given that in this day and age only an idiot would assume penetrating someone without a condom without checking first is not only dangerous but criminal.

In fact, I'm fairly certain all this stuff is covered in school. I'm in my 40s and the issue of consent gas been around a long time!

"As far as he was aware there was consent.

The lack of a condom is irrelevant"

Eh?

As far as he was aware, he had consent to oral sex. Not PIV. And the lack of condom is relevant - if a woman says yes to sex with a condom, removing the condom and continuing negates the consent as the consent was conditional.

And I have experienced going from oral to PIV with a new partner without time to notice it was happening - in fact, me and said man had previously agreed we weren't going to have PIV that day. In that instance, I was fine with the change of plan (man knew I was on the pill too) but it wasn't something I had time to respond to.

OP, his behaviour was shitty and put you at risk of pregnancy and STDs without your consent. I'm sorry that happened.

And of course it's unlikely anyone says "can I put my penis in you now?" But a quick "is this ok?" Is common. Also - wouldn't you rather ask a slightly awkward sounding question than risk a sexual act that your partner didn't want?

Also - wouldn't you rather ask a slightly awkward sounding question than risk a sexual act that your partner didn't want?

Yeah, you'd hope so.

And of course it's unlikely anyone says "can I put my penis in you now?" But a quick "is this ok?" Is common. Also - wouldn't you rather ask a slightly awkward sounding question than risk a sexual act that your partner didn't want?

Exactly this.

In my experience (which is fairly limited I admit!) the question asked was "do you want to carry on?" And sometimes I said no!

I have been thinking recently about what I am going to teach my son about sex and consent and the conclusion I came to is that for early sexual encounters he should either have her help put the condom on or put him inside her (or preferably both).

I don't understand why you allowed unprotected sex to continue. He shouldn't have stuck his dick in you without asking but the moment he did that, you should have stopped things and told him that wasn't ok. Then either moved to protected sex, returned to foreplay or stopped entirely. Why allow him to presumably finish inside you? That was the point at which you were exposed to possible pregnancy and diseases. Not the point when his penis first entered you.

I think this thread is a good example of why girls really need to be taught how to say no when they're young.

Startled, the risk increases massively after ejacualtion but it's non-zero from the moment of penetration (pre-cum and skin abrasions).

Anyway, the OP's question was around him not having her consent to the moment of penetration.

Would this "stand" in a court of law? Fairly sure it wouldn't,tbh i doubt it would even go to court.
But this is not a court of law, it's just a discussion about consent.

Agree with RebelRogue.

I completely agree with you, Jacquetta. But the risks are hugely increased at ejaculation. Not stopping the moment she realised she had been penetrated and thinking "Oh well, it's too late now" was an odd decision on the part of the OP.

I am not blaming the OP, by the way. I certainly made some shitty decisions regarding sex when I was much younger. Often out of embarrassment or some kind of misplaced "Well, I've invited him back to my place, I kind of have to have sex with him" etiquette.

Happily, now I'm in my forties and dating again, I am a lot clearer about only doing things I am happy with. I really hope that's the message that OP and other readers of this thread will take from this.

Sexual abuse happens. All too often. BUT most people are decent. If you say "I'm not comfortable with this" or "stop", they will respect it. I don't think it's fair to expect people to be mind readers. Especially if you are "pretending to enjoy it".

At age 18, or whatever, I probably would've made different sexual decisions to those I do now too, Startled.

" It's one or the other when it comes to sexually aggravated crimes, and the Chad Evans case has really hindered progress for women in defining what is rape/assault."

Could Jiggly (I think it was her) clarify what she meant by this?

I think that the young man's behaviour was a classical seduction as described and portrayed in countless novels, plays and films over the 20th century. Man meets woman, overcomes her reluctance step by step, until she yields to full sex. Because the trope usually ends with the woman in love with the man, consent is assumed.
It's a very damaging and dangerous piece of cultural conditioning; all the more so because it is subtle and insidious. We've rejected the more blatant tropes, no means yes, a woman needs a firm hand, and it's time we took a cold hard look at this one too because it has no place in the 21st century.
I would like to think that any decent young man would be horrified to realise that he had unwittingly damaged the emotional health of a partner. I think we have a responsibility to our sons to educate them to avoid being an instrument of someone else's pain. We need to be clear on what consent is first, before we try and determine if rape is everything else, or a subset of everything else.
The degree to which culture mitigates responsibility will always polarise people: judged in a vacuum we have a rapist, but in a culture that celebrates this kind of sexual behaviour as "prowess", the spectrum of judgement slides to asshole, jerk, thoughtless, ...and then most worryingly to normal.
Which is why we have to examine our culture, hold it up to the light and start to shape a better mindset. Raising our young women to be so polite and concerned about embarrassment that she can lie still and not object to another person putting her health at risk is not ok. Failing to teach our young people that there are direct connections between sexual behaviour and mental health is not being cool and liberal, it's neglect. As a culture we've separated out sex and morality. Our great-grandmothers were scaffolded socially to maintain firm sexual boundaries, protecting their virginity. I'm not going to even begin to examine what was wrong with that, but in our current culture it is very difficult for a young woman to hold to her own boundaries when, as the OP described, everyone else is doing it. The social pressure to be prematurely sexually active is very strong.
It's not just the actions of individuals that cause rape but the words we all use, the stories we tell, the unexamined, unchallenged nonsense.
As a mother of both genders, I'd like to aspire at least to raising a son who waits for an enthusiastic yes, a daughter who can confidently say no, and, perhaps more importantly still, vice versa.

OP- you might find it helpful to chat with a therapist one to one about your experience, in an environment where your feelings are considered paramount. A counsellors job isn't to sit in judgement or pronounce guilt. It's a fascinating discussion for mumsnet, but don't mistake a straw poll on the Internet for the emotional validity of your life experience.
Whether or not he abused or raped you is an entirely different question to whether or not you experienced a violation.

The fact that you were so voiceless in your description worries me. I know it was a long time ago, and you said you weren't greatly affected by it but have you changed in the meantime, or developed stronger boundaries? We're there issues deeper in the past that contributed to your inability to speak up?

I'm not expecting you to answer any of these questions on a public forum, but I am concerned for you OP

Hi all,

As you all know, threads that discuss rape and assault (whether physical or verbal) can be extremely emotionally distressing for people who have experienced those things, and we'd be really grateful if all posters could remember that and try to pitch their comments appropriately.

We just wanted to link to our We Believe You campaign here, in case this is helpful to anyone.

While i used to like the tea analogy,it misses something that is intricate in society...manners,politeness,niceness,embarrassment. Even more prevalent for girls,we are thought to be nice ,polite,not cause a scene etc. How many people would agree to a cup of tea ,because the host is insisting on it? How many people would drink a cup of tea put in front of them,even if they weren't asked if they wanted it? The same happens with sex,more than we'd like to believe,and funilly enough it does start with a cup of tea,or coffee,or a drink,or just watch a movie,or oral sex.

All the focus is on the dickhead and his dick

What about the OP? She went through so many different sexual levels and consented to each one ! He gave her oral sex she didn't say no he turned her around and continued she didn't say no he penetrated she didn't say no, yet we blame him?

She had so many opportunities to say No!
OP you have a voice, use it!!!
For our own sake start speaking up otherwise you ll end up in this situation again and again and again

You must have some sort of psychological issues that you think avoid embarrassing him is better option than protecting yourself from serious and potentially fatal diseases. You just address them now and protect yourself
This is not assault this is your choice that went all wrong and 'something' made you realise now! Please ask some assault victims (I'm one of them), you will know if you're raped there and then
Be strong be assertive and please don't blame innocent (albeit stupid ) men for your own wrong choices

If I didn't want a man to have sex with me without a condom, I would say so. That is the whole premise of consent between two people who we're both capable of consenting. If you don't want it, you say you don't want it. If he had started without a condom, he would be told very quickly to stop until a condom was being used. My son will be taught never to put himself in a position where consent can be denied after the act, and my daughter will be taught that men are not mind readers and if you mean no, say no. Very controversial, but I will be showing both of them the reply to the tea consent video that shows there is no such thing as safe tea.

I am glad you will teach your son to check if it is ok to penetrate a woman before he does so, zoobedoo, with particular emphasis on condom use. The man in the OP of course did not do this.

"Please ask some assault victims (I'm one of them), you will know if you're raped there and then"

I'm sorry for your experience but this isn't true for all victims, not by a long shot. For example, many still believe a husband can't rape a wife.