Was this rape/sexual abuse of some sort?

[breakfastatchanel]

This is something that happened a few years ago when I was at University living on campus in my first year. But I am just thinking about it now because something I read reminded me of it. And I'm curious if this would actually be considered rape or sexual abuse of some sort? I never thought it was before but now I'm wondering.

So basically after a night out I went back with this guy to his room (in one of the accommodation on campus). I wasn't that drunk, I can remember everything that happened and was perfectly lucid so that wasn't really an issue. But anyway I for some reason thought it was a good idea to have be promiscuous with boys I hardly knew because everyone else seemed to be doing it. Anyway, I guess we were kissing on the bed and then he took off my underwear and started to give me oral sex. I remember not liking as it was quite rough and regretting my decision but I pretended to be enjoying it or at least I didn't do anything and just put up with it trying to convince myself it was fine (not his fault though) anyway then he turned me over unto my front and carried on giving me oral sex and using his hands. Then he suddenly started to have sex with me which caught me by surprise. I would have had sex with him but I would never have agreed to do it with no condom. But once he started I just decided that the risk of infection and pregnancy was already there and I would already have to go to the clinic in the morning anyway so I didn't say anything and just let him carry on without any sign. I didn't like it either but I didn't want to cause any embarrassment for me or him so I just waited for it to be over and pretended it was okay.

I took the morning after pill the next day and then about a week later I went to the clinic to get checked out. Because I actually had thrush from it (for the only time in my life) but wanted to get checked out anyway. The nurse wanted to hear what happened and was asking questions and I told her that I would never normally have unprotected sex and she asked questions I ended up explaining what happened just so she wouldn't think I was reckless and because she was asking. I remember she seemed to be sympathetic and take it quite seriously when I told her which I was surprised about because I thought it was all me and normal. But she never said it was sexual assault or anything like that I just remember her face and the way she spoke like she felt bad for me rather than saying it was all my fault. i dunno though.

So what would this be classed as? Or would it just be me having sex that I didn't want to have but not saying anything and getting myself into a silly position (so to speak).

It's not really bothering me personally and never really did and it was ages ago anyway but I'm just curious in general about this kind of thing. Thanks.

p.s. Also in my second year of university I remember I was kissed against my will twice by two different people on two different occasions. I did the same thing and just pretended it was fine and mutual so I didn't pull away straight away to avoid embarrassment because it was both people I knew who hung around with the same people as me so i didn't want things to be awkward if they thought they had imposed on me. So I just waited a few seconds and then pulled away and just continued to act as friends. One of them did up against a wall. Both times it was totally by surprise and quite forceful. Was that sexual assault? Even though it was just kissing?

And for clarification, I'll add that this still wouldn't have been ok even if he had somehow got a condom on.

I'm sorry jiggly that a men who promised to love you and honour you would do such a thing, I hope you got the outcome you deserved

I understand your feelings about it, I do. The minute anyone says stop or no it should be just that. Don't minimise your own experience because you feel it better it happened to you than some random, that isn't the point, it shouldn't have happened at all, he should have stopped when you told him to, regardless of your past history.

I felt so ashamed when I needed medical care after one incident, I didn't know what to say, I just lied and lied and hoped they believed me. I don't think they did, I know looking back I wouldn't have believed me The pain just felt like further punishment for how stupid I was how inadequate, that's how it felt for me.

I should be asleep right now it nearly 5am and I have work in a few hours but this thread seems to have triggered everything, it probably explains why a lot of my defence mechanisms have surfaced in my writing style.

The one thing I found that heleped me really consolidate everything though Crazy was talking about, something I find as time goes on gets easier, little by little. It helped me understand it wasn't my fault, no matter how much I objected he never would have stopped and it's not my fault.

Totally agree that his behaviour was absolutely not on at the very best. And I think for first time sex with a new partner you really need explicit agreement from both parties if no condom is to be used. Completely reckless and very few women would agree to sex without a condom under these circumstances which I suspect he was aware of. Also totally not on to start piv in a position in which OP didn't know it was about to happen.

I think a minimised as I was only 20 when it happened I'm now 29, I know having my own DD I want to protect her from such experience as something so horrid as what I experienced that night.

I guess I pushed into my sub conscious as a way of coping and blocking it although this thread has triggered some painful memories. I'm so sorry for your experience Jiggy I guess when your in a situation like that things can be difficult to come to terms with and rather than face them we push them under the rug, I know I have. I remember I got a message from the lad who I had the bad experience with and he had the nerve to contact me to ask me how I was and that he couldn't remember what we had 'fallen' out over, I couldn't believe he had the brass neck to contact me I ignored him and blocked him. Thank you for the support haven't spoke about this for years to anyone.

Crazy it's been triggering for me too, probably brining out a defencive and critical side, next is normally the self loathing and pitiful side. It's like a vicious circle in my mind, it plays on a perpetual loop once its triggered, drives me insane some nights.

I now have a son and a very understanding partner who accepts me for who I am.

I don't think I could ever deal with a message off my abuser, I'm.not sure weather if respond with vile rhetoric or spiral in to fear and sadness. You showed strength in blocking and ignoring him, you really did.

And thank you for being my ear to bend, now that I'm wide awake and dreading work

Consent to oral sex does not make consent to penetrative sex automatic, people - I can't believe this is still being discussed in 2016! The man should have checked that what he was about to do was welcomed. The "Surprise!" approach is assault, no question in my mind.

I pretended to be enjoying it or at least I didn't do anything and just put up with it trying to convince myself it was fine

Everyone has leaped onto the "pretended to be enjoying it" but ignored the part where OP goes on to say "or at least I didn't do anything and just put up with it." This last part is very different to pretending to enjoy it.

According to the law consent must be a clear and enthusiastic yes - anything less is not consent. If OP simply laid there without saying/doing anything and was just sort of passively letting it happen then IMO it's a grey area and he was in the wrong, but in the eyes of the law it could be seen as rape. There was a programme on the BBC last year where they showed a drama to a group of teenagers and asked them whether the girl had been raped or not. It involved forced oral sex which the male started doing and the girl just laid there - she didn't say no, she didn't struggle, but she wasn't 'enthusiastic' either. A lot of the teenagers said it wasn't assault but the boy was found guilty of rape and sentenced to 7 years in jail.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/02/sex-on-trial-bbc-people-shocked-teenagers-know-little-rape-consent_n_8456094.html

Just shows that consent is not a question of saying yes or no, it's a question of whether or not both parties are enthusiastic. Both parties must be 100% sure that the other person is completely up for it - not just OK with it, but completely and 100% enthusiastically wanting it - before anything happens. In the case of the OP it doesn't sound like this was the case - he couldn't see her face and didn't bother to check whether she was still enthusiastically up for it before shoving it in.

Sounds harsh, but according to the law as shown in the BBC programme, this could have been seen as rape or at least assault.

Quote:
"It is now understood that women often freeze in situations of rape when they are not consenting. That is why young people need to understand that they cannot carry on until they are told to stop. They should be having a dialogue about what is happening and asking whether they are happy to go further."
Doesn't sound like this happened for the OP.

Very concerned by the posters who are worried about their sons doing something like this and being 'accused' of rape. Easy way to avoid that - make sure your sons know how to behave in these situations! It is not OK to presume that someone has consented just because they don't say no! Your sons should be tuned into the other person's body language and how they are feeling so that they can be sure they have enthusiastic consent.

Blue moon: What change to the law has happened that makes that case? My understanding is that a reasonable belief in consent makes for a defence. This may mean that one person can have a genuine belief that they were assaulted, whilst the other has a genuine belief that the act was consensual. I am aware of no law that puts the onus on anyone to secure 100% belief in enthusiastic consent.

I'm surprised you are even asking yourself if it is rape. It certainly isn't to me.

I can't believe the posters on here who seem to think that consenting to oral means consenting to penetrative sex without a condom, and don't seem to understand that the OP didn't get the chance to object to it initially. He'd already put it in... Presumably without checking whether she was on the pill, whether she had the coil, was happy to risk catching an STI, and whether she wanted to be penetrated. I've also heard of numerous women freezing in this situation.
OP, I'm sorry this happened. I wonder if some of the posters who are so forgiving of his entering without consent would feel the same if he'd, say, begun anal sex without giving you any chance to object.

I don't see the man as being sly. He seems like a young man meeting someone and having sex.

Read the op again, imagine being in his position, in he throws of passion, having just met someone. Not everyone wears a conform, though it is of course recommended.

Or imagine that description could describe a long term relationship or married couple. It could: they kiss, he gives her oral sex, flips her over and penetration. That description could be a sordid affair. But it could also describe many many happy sexual relationships.

And the big thing to me is:
He gave her oral sex.
Flipped her over. Her on her front.
Then she says:
He Continued giving her oral sex.
Then he penetrated her.

So, the oral sex continued once she was on her front. But she was surprised by his penetration. I wouldn't have been. Penetration is what I would have expected.

The point is that in a rape trial the defendant, if they admit there was sex, needs to have had a reasonable belief in consent. This can be a genuinely mistaken belief, but that is decided by the jury, they don't necessarily just take your word for it. The other person is saying that they didn't consent to the sexual act. In that case the defendant would need to show the steps they took to obtain consent. If the jury doesn't believe you did take sufficient steps to obtain consent, you may be found guilty of rape or sexual assault. It goes without saying that most rapists never see a courtroom, but very occasionally there are guilty verdicts in cases like the OP's.

It is a well known fact that people often freeze when assaulted, so all the people who say it's only rape if the victim specifically says no or struggles are wrong. Consent to one sex act does not automatically mean consent to another. It is a grey area in terms of how a court sees it, it entirely depends on the circumstances.

Agree there is some shitty, ignorant victim blaming on this thread.

Oblo; throes of passion does not make it ok to penetrate a woman without her knowledge.

Oral sex to unprotected sex is a huge leap and it is why consent is important. I know some posters are making a mockery of the need to establish what and what is not ok by asking, but it needs to be clear. The absence of which makes it an illegal act.

Him being drunk (which was an assumption made by Jiggly and not true) does also not lessen what he did.

Well, it's certainly not a clear cut case. To me. Would this get a conviction, in court?

Oblomov

This was not a married couple. The assumption there would tend to be that they knew each other's limits and what they were OK with etc (although that is not always the case) This was a one night stand and at the very least this guy was careless as to her consent to an additional, unprotected sex act.

Ok

Was the kissing in year 2 sexual assault, on both accounts?

Who knows what would happen in court unfortunately in a lot of his cases it is one person's word against the other.

Lack of proof, evidence.... who knows....

sorry this thread has moved so fast and a lot going on and I didn't have time to reply individually to everyone. I'm pretty slow with typing and stuff. not sure if you’ll se my replies now but oh well better late than never.

Lessthanaballpark - I agree about the wider cultural issue. And about your answer to my question I see what you mean. i definitely don't think what he did was ok. And he probably didn't have bad intentions or anything or thought it was ok so yeah I dunno about what it would be classed as either. Which is why I'm asking. I mean if it was technically abuse or rape then it's not like I'd think that badly of him as I assume his intentions weren't bad but I do think it wasn't the right thing for him to do anyway which I've only just realised.

JaniceBattersby - I agree with everything you said about my experience. I agree it was not acceptable but a grey area and am unsure about labelling it as sexual abuse or anything. I think with the issue of consent it's ok if the person knows what you are wanting to do so can have the opportunity to say something so checking/asking for consent in a way non verbalising is often enough as long as both parties are aware of what happening and also of course being aware of the other persons reactions etc. But I can see why teenagers are being taught now to ask verbally for consent and I think that is better they are being taught more about this and would be best to know to do it if there happens to be a situation where they are unsure otherwise.

talesofthevillage - thank you for your reply and support. I'm sorry you've experienced that kind of thing. It doesn't sound right at all. Very shady and disrespectful at least to just do that without asking you. You thought you were having sex with a condom and then he just suddenly decides he doesn't want to use it anymore without giving you chance to protest. That's not what you consented to clearly and I can imagine why you might have been too stunned to say anything as it is not something you'd expect him to do. Hope you're ok and remember it's ok to say no to anything your uncomfortable with as I'm sure you already know.

More recent people:

milpool - thank you for reply and support. I think what you say makes sense and I agree it was not ok. I still don't know how i'd label it but throughout this thread has given me a chance to think about it and do agree it wasn't ok.

singingsixpence - thank you for reply. yeah that makes sense. I think it was especially weird thing for him to do given we had never had sex before and obviously we should have used a condom as well. But even disregarding the no condom thing the way he did was strange and I wouldn't expect a long term partner who i was having unprotected sex with to do it like either as in get me in that position and instead of having sex start foreplay and then suddenly sex when my back is turned. Seems like a strange way to go about things as I have mentioned. But yeah the fact we'd never had sex before makes it more unacceptable and you're probably right about him knowing about the condom thing. Maybe he didn't have any or just didn't want to use them.

Trifleorbust - Thank you for your response. I think what you say makes sense.

Bluemoon - I'm not sure about the unenthusiastic vs. enthusiastic thing in my case as I didn't freeze or anything. I wasn't looking like I was actively enjoying it either but I don't think he could have really known. Or I just don't know if he could have known I wasn't really enjoying it. So that's in regard to the foreplay and the carrying on the sex afterward. But the initial penetration itself was not consented to as I had no way to stop it or know it was going to happen. So I mean if it was just that which was non consensual (which was all I was really asking about) then it would just be the equivalent of him inserting his penis (sorry to be graphic again) and then say I told him to stop at that point and he did then he still would have penetrated me without my consent. I guess you could say I 'froze' after that in a way because it had already started so I didn't know what to do but I still see as my responsibility that it carried on for longer. I guess I just thought I might as well as it had already happened so after that it was consensual as I could have asked him to stop. I haven't read the article yet but I will and will do some more research on the matter you raise and the laws it's interesting.

p.s. sorry if anything I said was jumbled or rambling in this post. I couldn't sleep tonight (for other reasons I have messed up body clock and don't get to sleep for long) been up most the night.

"But she was surprised by his penetration. I wouldn't have been. Penetration is what I would have expected."

See, I would have been surprised. And so was the OP. People aren't identical in what they want and expect and that's why he should have checked. She was right there, all he had to say was, "can we have unprotected sex now?" I suspect the answer to that would have been a resounding no.

The guy was certainly in the wrong for not wearing a condom.

The OP pretending that she enjoyed the rest of it is confusing me, nobody is a mind reader and she should have said something or he should have asked permission to enter her.

Yes, and it's quite possible he was well aware of that and that's exactly why he didn't ask.