Was this rape/sexual abuse of some sort?

[breakfastatchanel]

This is something that happened a few years ago when I was at University living on campus in my first year. But I am just thinking about it now because something I read reminded me of it. And I'm curious if this would actually be considered rape or sexual abuse of some sort? I never thought it was before but now I'm wondering.

So basically after a night out I went back with this guy to his room (in one of the accommodation on campus). I wasn't that drunk, I can remember everything that happened and was perfectly lucid so that wasn't really an issue. But anyway I for some reason thought it was a good idea to have be promiscuous with boys I hardly knew because everyone else seemed to be doing it. Anyway, I guess we were kissing on the bed and then he took off my underwear and started to give me oral sex. I remember not liking as it was quite rough and regretting my decision but I pretended to be enjoying it or at least I didn't do anything and just put up with it trying to convince myself it was fine (not his fault though) anyway then he turned me over unto my front and carried on giving me oral sex and using his hands. Then he suddenly started to have sex with me which caught me by surprise. I would have had sex with him but I would never have agreed to do it with no condom. But once he started I just decided that the risk of infection and pregnancy was already there and I would already have to go to the clinic in the morning anyway so I didn't say anything and just let him carry on without any sign. I didn't like it either but I didn't want to cause any embarrassment for me or him so I just waited for it to be over and pretended it was okay.

I took the morning after pill the next day and then about a week later I went to the clinic to get checked out. Because I actually had thrush from it (for the only time in my life) but wanted to get checked out anyway. The nurse wanted to hear what happened and was asking questions and I told her that I would never normally have unprotected sex and she asked questions I ended up explaining what happened just so she wouldn't think I was reckless and because she was asking. I remember she seemed to be sympathetic and take it quite seriously when I told her which I was surprised about because I thought it was all me and normal. But she never said it was sexual assault or anything like that I just remember her face and the way she spoke like she felt bad for me rather than saying it was all my fault. i dunno though.

So what would this be classed as? Or would it just be me having sex that I didn't want to have but not saying anything and getting myself into a silly position (so to speak).

It's not really bothering me personally and never really did and it was ages ago anyway but I'm just curious in general about this kind of thing. Thanks.

p.s. Also in my second year of university I remember I was kissed against my will twice by two different people on two different occasions. I did the same thing and just pretended it was fine and mutual so I didn't pull away straight away to avoid embarrassment because it was both people I knew who hung around with the same people as me so i didn't want things to be awkward if they thought they had imposed on me. So I just waited a few seconds and then pulled away and just continued to act as friends. One of them did up against a wall. Both times it was totally by surprise and quite forceful. Was that sexual assault? Even though it was just kissing?

As much as you'd want to have clear definitions, I don't think it is possible. You cannot have a definition of sex with ABC involved is okay, but sex with ABC + D or sex with ABD is not okay. The same applies to what you are trying to define within the context of sexual assault and rape. That is why I remain strictly focused on the story in the OP and no other topics, because if we delve deeper into the matter, we are going to get lost in philosophical and legal and some such matters.

So in line of the events described in the OP, both parties were expecting sex - can we be clear on this? Then, since one side obviously had the ABC I mentioned above in mind, while the other had the ABD in mind, things unfolded the way they did. Sex took place, but it was different and if you are trying to call me on whether or not the ABD done by the boy is right or not, I already explained it is not. However, it is not his fault alone for delivering sex in the first place, since that is what she came for. By your own definitions, she was not dragged there, which makes it shared responsibility. It is the difference in ABC/ABD definitions of sex each of them had that caused this problem, and honestly there is no way to put that even remotely close to sexual assault or rape. One thing I am sure: none of this would be considered a problem if she had said 'NO!' when he started it, instead of encouraging it by faking enjoyment.

Jane

You've only been on MN a month or so, I think, so you might not yet have discovered the handy customise feature to highlight the OP's posts.

That feature would allow you to see that the OP has addressed your point about her feelings on what happened after she was penetrated by an uncondomed penis without her consent being sought. Her unease is clearly focussed on the moment of penetration.

HTH.

If she had said NO as soon as she realised what had happened, he would still have put his uncondomed penis into her without her consent.

AristotlesTrousers, that is exactly my point - life is complicated and we all experience it differently. If you all try to look from the other perspective, you will see that there is a boy who thought he was going to have sex and when he did, there was no problem for him and it didn't seem to him that there was a problem with the other side as well. How is it his fault for her 'freezing' as you call it and pretending to enjoy something that was in fact hurting her? How is it his fault for living in a society, in which one night stands have set the standards as low as to think that doing it without condom is ok? If you think about it, when you choose not to be rude, it is your personal choice and you are the one that should be held responsible for the outcome. Reminds me of the times I tried to process the horrible food cooked by my mother in law, simply because I was trying to be nice. One day I finally decided to tell her that I am having troubles and that I prefer it cooked differently. Guess what happened - she smiled and agreed to cook in a different manner. Fear led to my stomach issues and it is my own fault for trying not to insult her and just be nice.

Can I just say that I did jury duty recently and one of the cases was a sexual assault case. The judge gave very clear instructions that how the complainant acted in the aftermath, i.e. not screaming and running away, reporting straight away etc were not in any way indicative of guilt or innocence of the defendant and that there is no 'correct' way for a victim to behave. The defendant was convicted on the basis that he could have no reasonable belief that he had consent, and the word 'no' was never used once by the victim.

How hard is it to understand that men have an obligation to check it's ok to stick their penis in someone. Women don't have an obligation to fight them off. In fact it is often safer not to!

"Reminds me of the times I tried to process the horrible food cooked by my mother in law, simply because I was trying to be nice. One day I finally decided to tell her that I am having troubles and that I prefer it cooked differently."

Did she come up behind you and stuff it down your throat?

The point is that once an "uncondomed" penis has entered a vagina, the risk for STIs and actually pregnancy has already been taken.

The woman in this scenario was not given a choice about this because she could not see that he was about to enter her and therefore couldn't speak up.

And from my own experience, the shock of being penetrated without being given a choice about it can make a person freeze. It is very uncomfortable and shocking for someone to use your body for sex without giving your mind any consideration. Which is what is done here.

I'm not going to shed any tears for the "boy who just wanted to have sex". He can want all he likes, but sex is with a consenting partner, it's not just an experience you're entitled to have. At best it was bad sexual etiquette, at worst it was assault.

'How is it his fault for her 'freezing' as you call it...'

Because, Jane, if he had checked that it was ok to penetrate her before doing so, she wouldn't have been in the position of freezing in the first place. Nothing the OP did next could alter the fact that he was ALREADY inside her.

It's neither.you never said no and you pretended to enjoy it. Sorry but I domt understand why you would think it was rape or sexual abuse ? You consented and acted like you were enjoying it so the young man did absolutely nothing wrong

One of the reasons why I absolutely hate derailing a thread like what is happening here is because it often seems that two people pretty much share the same opinion, just it doesn't become clear.

The one thing that I started with was that assuming unprotected sex is fine is wrong. He did exactly that and I am not defending him. I call him a fool for it. However, I am saying that one night stands often skip this and participants never get to discuss it to begin with, so uneducated people often end up doing it. I am not talking about any other scenario, which you people like to put up as argument, like 'Oh, so would it be ok to do this and this then' or debate on where do we actually draw the line.

I am making a point that when you settle for a one night stand with a random guy, you are settling for low standards. Whether or not unprotected sex is included in these low standards is up for debate - personally I think it is! It sounds scary and I do believe that it is scary indeed, because one night stands blur the lines of what is acceptable and what is not. The girl herself used the word 'random' and I think that it perfectly describes what such relationships are all about. That is especially the case with young people, and this is the main problem - the devastating effects that such promiscuous behaviour can have. The most important thing here is to educate people on the importance of protected sex, rather than focus on whether or not a stupid act like that defines as sexual assault during a one night stand.

To the OP: I am sorry that you had to go through this. You said this was some time ago, so I hope you have found a person who can make you happy without doing anything you don't like.

All the best!

"You consented "

When did she consent to being penetrated by an uncondomed penis?

"because one night stands blur the lines of what is acceptable and what is not. "

Person initiating a sex act checks they have consent to that sex act before doing it = acceptable.

Assuming consent to one sex act gives you consent to another = not acceptable

Putting your penis inside a stranger without making eye contact, murmuring "is this ok?", checking if they have a condom etc, basically ensuring that you have that consent = unacceptable

Cleared that up for you.

Keep at it ladies.... Unless we tackle these 19th century attitudes of women and promiscuity and stop reducing sexual offences to bad sexual etiquette or lack of communication we'll never tackle the low conviction rate for sexual offences.

This is officially the most horrific thread I've ever read on Mumsnet. And I've read some horrific threads.

Good work Buffy, Jacquetta, stitchglitched, Barksdale and all the rest who posted earlier on the thread, some of whom presumably can't bear to come back. I'm really not surprised.

I am making a point that when you settle for a one night stand with a random guy, you are settling for low standards.

"When you settle for a one night stand" - so it's the woman's fault that the man has low standards? I've had ONS's and condoms have been brought up.

To say that a woman seeking a ONS has "low standards" and therefore should expect to be treated like a piece of meat is 1960's era.

Should she also "expect" to contract HIV because she lowered her standards enough to sleep with a random male?

Should a woman who lowers herself to wearing a short skirt expect unwanted comments and attention? Maybe even expect being felt up?

"the devastating effects that such promiscuous behaviour can have."

Your agenda is clear here. You're moralising about a woman's promiscuity, as if sleeping around is something terrible in itself and therefore breeds rape and disrespect as an inevitability.

I agree Barksdale it's like the entire sexual revolution passed them by. Utterly prehistoric attitudes and these are the people who sit on juries.

'she had said NO as soon as she realised what had happened, he would still have put his uncondomed penis into her without her consent"

That above - how on earth can you state that fact when we don't know. Huge presumption. If she had said no then he would know she wasn't want PIV sex and stopped.

I believe I have made my point clear, or at least as clear as I can. What you make of it is entirely your problem. Moralising about a woman's promiscuity ... That one gave me a smile. I have better things to do with my time than answering to snarky remarks :)

There is nothing more to say.

In an ideal world none of this would have happened and every man would be asking for consent. However this is unlikey to happen. Same as world peace isn't going to happen. So in the meantime I will continue to tell my children to take responsibility for themselves, to look after themselves and to not put themselves in dangerous situations. I know what men are meant to do but it isn't going to happen as not all men/people are considerate, careful, safe, etc etc and I would rather my kids knew that then let them think the opposite. We all have to take responsibility for ourselves and that has nothing to do with victim blaming. We just unfortunately do not live in that world yet. Infact I think we are going backwards in women's rights. When I was at uni I laid in the same bed with many men but was never under any pressure to have PIV. When I said no I didn't want to have sex that was respected. I would hate to be a young person now.

Personal responsibility is one thing,rape being preventable is another. And guess what? It cannot be prevented,especially since women are at more risk from people they know,friends,family,boyfriend etc.
Women can't stop rape,rapists should stop raping.