Can we have a thread for those of us who are daughters with difficult mothers?

[PinkyofPie]

Been thinking about starting this thread for a while.

My mother is a difficult and sometimes toxic woman and we have a strained relationship.

I think IRL there's not enough people around like me, all my friends are best friends with their mums. My mum recently moved back to the area and all I get is "oh I bet you're so happy". Actually, no, her being closer is awful if I'm honest.

There's so much to my relationship with her, too much for an OP.

A huge bone of contention is that she knows about a family member sexually harassing me quite badly through my teens (I've posted details in another name). I'm talking flashing, suggestive language and grabbing me now and again when no one was looking. I have told her the details. This person is still very much in her life, she bigs him up to anyone who listens and can't understand why I despise him and won't be near him. She minimised his behaviour massively and We Don't Talk About It.

She also made comments along the lines of "well did you lead him on?" yes mum, I was 16 and he was 55, I was gagging for it with a relative.

being in her presence is very tiring. She has no friends so I feel pressured to see her now she's back near me. I met her today, and I am drained. I always feel like I've done something wrong, she's in a constant mood. Everything is crap, she hates any food we eat, complains about people nearby and won't look for the good in anything. Where she lived before was so much better apparently. Spending just a few hours round that negativity is exhausting.

The funny thing is she makes out to others like we extremely close. A daughter of her friend - who I had just met that night - once said to me "I'm so jealous about the bond you and your mum have"

Anyway I know MN has lots of people who feel the same so thought I would start by having a place for us long suffering daughters to share, moan, vent and generally get everything out into the open!

No
You can't
So stop trying
I have
It's quite liberating!

I dropped my youngest DD with my mother today as she'd text yesterday to say she'd take her out on the bus somewhere (DD normally comes to work with me in holidays) as we walked up the path she met us halfway and DD gave her a hug ...she said 'don't be silly !" and " I'm not taking her anywhere after all its such a lovely day I'd rather have met some friends instead" .... DD came to work .

I can't fucking win

Yes you can, by not engaging in it.

Here's how without NCing:

• only make plans that aren't dependant on their behaviour, never rely on them, arrange things with them where it doesn't matter if they don't show or leave early. If something matters, like a special event like the wedding - keep your plans/arrangements totally separate to theirs.

Don't try and reason with crazy, you'll lose

e.g. arrange to see them for a trip to the zoo, DO NOT travel there with them, meet them there, that way if they don't show or are late/leave early, you and DD still have a nice look round the zoo

Rant alert

Met mum today after maybe a week or so of not seeing her.

Honestly one of the most unpleasant 90 minutes of my life. She's not the least bit interested in DD who adores her. She's trying to get a job but got rejected for one after one interview so says 'what's the point' and isn't going to bother applying any more, as 'I'll never get one'.

To illustrate the kind of person she is, she's on certain benefits as currently jobless so entitled to food bank vouchers but has plenty of money in the bank. She shops at M&S but also goes to the food bank every week, to collect a parcel she doesn't need. It doesn't matter that that parcel could go to a person who needs it, she is entitled to it so there.

Anyway, she said today she was thinking about killing herself (lovely for a daughter and granddaughter to hear over pizza) because she thought her iPad had broke, and that she thinks she has a fatal heart condition but doctors don't listen. I know what she's trying to do, she's trying to get sympathy. And I won't give her any, so know I'm the difficult heartless daughter.

She says she's seeing a therapist now ("good" I thought) but she must be feeding said therapist a loads of lies, as she's been told that she's too kind and needs to stop caring about others and put herself first she also said she's afraid of her kids feeling about her the way she did about her own mum. I was like bit late for that! I think she thinks I like her.

She never asks about my pregnancy. I told her I had my latest scan and she just said "What scan? Or your pregnancy one. How nice".

I asked if she told the therapist about the man who sexually harassed me - in going to say now (and I've never said under this username), that the man was my stepdad. He's been my stepdad since I was 5 and harassed me from the ages of 16 to 19 when I moved out. Mum found out and stayed with him for 10 years after this - and she said "some bits, yes". I just want a fucking apology or understanding that her staying with my abuser was damaging to me. But no, her feelings are more important and we can't talk about stepdad and what he did because it upsets her.

The worst time ever for me was a few months ago when she was still with SD (she left him some months ago) he'd cocked something up with getting the car fixed and she was ranting about him and said "she's never been so angry at him". I couldn't help it and said "what not even when you found out he was trying to sleep with your DD". She then started to cry, I'd upset her, it was my fault she was sad now.

She said today she didn't know if she is gonna stay here. I asked where she'd go as the job situation won't be any better elsewhere in the UK. What she means is that she's going back to him. I give it a month. This is after I had the bravery to tell her about the few times he molested me in childhood as well. She still chats to him all the time and has never asked me how I feel. Only that she feels so guilty. And of course usual crap about "well what made him do that?". How the fuck would I know?

Sorry that was a hell of a rant! I actually now do hope she goes back to him. I've never gone to the police about him - mainly because I was scared, of not being believed, and never had the strength. But mainly to protect mum as I didn't want her to go through that hell. Now I don't care. Why should I? She doesn't care about me.

I'e spoken about my narcissistic mother upthread. I'm currently steeling myself to call my mother. She expects me to call her regularly, especially on a Sunday evening. We were out this week and didn't get back until late. We also went out last night for DN's birthday and again were back too late to call. I don't want to call her - last time I was late calling, she called me cold and lacking in compassion and was not the slightest bit interested in anything I had to say. She's had a follow up appointment at the hospital and I'd forgotten to ask how it went, hence her branding me a cold-hearted and callous daughter. I know that the longer I leave it the worse she will be but I just don't want to ring her. I have nothing to say and she will spend 10 minutes talking about herself and won't be the slightest bit interested in anything I have to say. How can I still be scared of how she'll react? I'm 44 ffs! It sounds so petty written down that I'm ashamed of how I feel towards her.

Napoleon please don't feel ashamed, I know that feeling and you've got to get to a point in your life where, if something gives you such little pleasure, don't do it. Plus she can always call you or is she like my PA mother who won't give in first??

I also wanted to say something gto everyone posting on this thread as I've noticed people minimise their own experiences with toxic mums by saying "it's not that bad but..." And "I feel bad as we were fed and clothed" etc

Abuse comes in many forms, and lack of using fists doesn't mean you weren't abused. If your mother has upset you, worn you down, or belittled or been unsupportive enough for you to cry, or seek counselling, or distrust her, or dread her presence, or even post on this thread...then your feelings and experience are perfectly valid, and you have nothing to feel bad about. It's your mother who is in the wrong and should be accountable for her actions, not you

Deep down I know you're right Pinky, it's just really hard to let myself think it's her, not me as she as been like this my entire life. It's what I know and I guess I've normalised her behaviour for so long that I believe that I am that callous, cold-hearted person she says I am.

And yes, she could pick up the phone to me but if she did that then she wouldn't be able to justify me as the bad person.

My DB gets away with a fortnightly phone call at worst, whereas as the female, I'm expected to get in touch more often. I saw her last Thursday and she only lives a mile away. It's not like I'm in Australia or anything.

Thank you for saying that pinky. As I definitely minimise. It's difficult to recognise in myself that my upbringing was not normal and my mum was so dysfunctional in her behaviour. It's only now as a mum myself that I realise how bad it was as I can't ever imagine putting my own DS's through half of what my mum did to me. But I didn't know any different. That was normal. Even now when I think back its like it happened to someone else.

But what do you do when the person wants to make amends? She's ill, her health and mind are failing and she's realising (although in a slightly dismissive "I didn't realise how bad I was" kind of way) what she's done. Now that drink isn't her sole focus I think it's hitting her just what her alcohol abuse has cost her. But I can't be the daughter she needs or wants me to be now. The time when that kind of relationship should've been nurtured I was ignored and dismissed by her. I used to not be allowed in the house alot during the day as she wanted to drink without being seen. I'd get home from school and be told to get changed and get out. Or she'd pick an argument with me until I retaliated and leave by my own accord just to get away from the insults. I do believe that she regrets alot of her behaviour now but how can I now be close to a woman who's done nothing but push me away from her since I was 10 years old because all she wanted in her life was booze? How can I tell her that it's too late? I won't tell her, I know I won't. Talk about kicking a dog while it's down, just another reason for me to feel guilty. I'll do a crap job of pretending and so the charade continues......

pombearcat
You have a legitimate reason to NEVER drop your DD to your m ever again. How selfish and rude of her! I'm speechless :(

I haven't had any contact with my mother for nearly two weeks, and I feel so peaceful. I don't know if I'm going to bother to phone her. I realise now that she will not apologise for screaming at me on the phone, but I don't excuse her behaviour.
My daughter has spoken to her on the phone but I haven't asked about her.
I really don't know if I will phone her.

Can I have a few ideas please from anyone with NC or have low contact...I posted up-thread about my M and I was taking a back step and was doing very well. I was limiting calls and visits and not indulging her or talking about myself, just letting her rant off about her hypochondria and bitching and I was managing to just turn it into white noise !
Anyway she got me at a bad moment on Sunday, I was moving house (by myself primarily), up to my eyes in crap, no need to elaborate as most of you will know the stress. A favourite of hers is phoning me three times in a row if I don't answer (she had phoned me that morning and moaned about her health and was on her fourth attempt at calling me again). Anyway on fourth call I answered without thinking as I was busy and stressed and she immediately asked me where I was, started talking shit and ignored the fact I was up to my eyes balls, she shouted at me for making a loud noise on the phone (opening up packet for DD). I said The noise was me trying to feed DD and quite frankly I was tired of being asked where I was...then she hangs up on me. Then an hour later a text saying 'you are obviously too busy to bother talking to me, I won't bother you ever again, love you'.
I phoned her about an hour after the text but she didn't answer phone. That was 3 days ago.
I am upset, more out of sorts. Perhaps it's because I've finally done something assertive and I can see what she's really like, she simply didn't give a shit I was mid-moving. Worst part is I can only move house as she has promised to give me some money next month (truly fucked up there, but this was arranged months ago).
Any suggestions on how to proceed...I would normally try and make up with her/apologise but I think it's better I do nothing ? And if she withholds money, so be it.
Apologies for rant, I see many of posters have much worse scenarios than me

Sounds like mine. I got almost exactly the same in a text when she decided I wasn't repsonding fast enough to her messages "If it's too much hassle to answer texts, best not bother". Ultimately I ignored her and she got so mad she went batshit, slagged me off to my brother and it started a massive chain reaction culminating in NC and her emigrating 3 months later without telling me.
Personally I would leave it and not respond. The ball is in her court.

Ariandenotgrande
Sorry it would be hypocritical of you to take her money . If you go low contact,you shouldn't rely on their help either. Cant have your cake and eat it,sorry.
I have not taken a single penny from either of my parents since around 14 years ago,in fact did the opposite and gave them some. You need to be truly independent to go NC.

I really want to say thanks to Pinky for starting this thread - best of 500 messages & still going strong. I'm finding it a safe place to come & let it all out.

Looking at the previous 2 posts re not answering messages fast enough, not calling "often enough" etc - my mother is like that. In my case, I think it's because she has so little else in her life/retired etc, she has all day to stew on what she feels is substandard behaviour. She has no friends she can get a sense check from, more's the pity.

It's bloody hard though - the guilt. I can completely empathise with a pp who said she was steeling herself to call her mother & not really wanting to speak to her. I feel the same.

Lots of talk about LC and NC.

I wonder if anyone is in the same position as me in that my mother went NC with me and stuck to it until the day she died.

Sort of. My story is that we were railroaded and guilted into living with my mother on the pretence of her failing health (turns out to all have been massively exagerrated). After three years she engineered a row that ended with us moving into our own place a 5 min walk away. The passive aggressiveness, drama and all the rest of it went on for another 18 months, during which time we saw her every week. Then she ramped it up this time 2 years ago, culminating in having a massive massive rage at my brother who was staying. He told me about it and what was said and it was the last straw for me. I decided to then (without telling her) go much lower contact, starting by not calling her or picking up the phone for a day or 2. She obviously twigged he might tell me and started phoning. I ignored the call and so she went straigh on the offensive, phoning, e mails, voice mails, threatening to leave the country because of my treatment of her while also claiming she didn't know what had happened. it got madder and madder (phoned my inlaws and told them she thought we'd been in a car crash and maybe died, turned up drunk on the doorstep when she thought we were out and dumped stuff on the street, presents I'd given her) and so I just didn't respond to any of it, it was like stalker behaviour. She put the house on the market and left the country with no further contact. Turns out since that she slagged me off to the people who bought the house and they know are weird with me when we bump into each other, thanks mum. She sent presents to the kids but all very guilt trippy and no attempts to apologise or build bridges, more sort of "ha, I will ahve a relationship with gcs despite you" so after a year of that I just stopped responding (had previously got kids to write and say they'd arrived). So, a bit of both really.
Got 3 guilt trippy e mails in February basically saying, you're a shit and I'll die soon and you'll be sorry. I know she has cut me out of her will and I fully expect to never hear from her again.

Ariandenotgrande - I would try not to rely on her for anything, especially money. As hard as it is, I've been there and still owe her money from years ago. If you don't need her for anything then it makes it easier. So if you can survive without the money she promised then don't ask for it and don't take it if she offers. From my experience it's just another form of control so they can treat you how they want knowing that you aren't in a position to actually do anything about it. Personally, I wouldn't contact her.

My own M has started trying to make more contact recently and it puts me on edge. She'll go months of not calling and then suddenly decide that she wants to see me every few weeks or more often. It's a bit of a cycle, she'll do this and get more and more persistent until I can't get rid of her. Then she'll usually act like a complete bitch making nasty comments and then I won't hear from her again for a while. Maybe I should use it as the opportunity I need to get her out of my life for good. Usually I don't say anything to her nasty comments and it will only start bothering me a few days later. I think I just shut down emotionally when I see her.

Thanks for answering and I wholeheartedly agree re the finances. By taking money I am enabling her. It's a mess I got into without even realising after a difficult time when I moved back to this country after living abroad, and her help seemed a genuine gesture. Ironically I moved back to be nearer her as she was at deaths door...and she survived against the odds. She offered to help me move. And I thought it would be better for DD.
Need a big re think of finances now, going to be difficult but not impossible as sanity and independence are much more important than 'stuff'.

Napoleon, I was in exactly the same position with Sunday night calls. We used to take it in turns to ring - I remember the sick feeling while I waited for the phone to go (what sort of mood would she be in?) It's only recently that I can hear the phone ringing and not feel sick with apprehension.

Someone upthread said their biggest headfuck was that their mother swung between vile and lovely. Mine did that. Definitely a headfuck.

Today I was hot, tired, achy and ended up being a grumpy cow with my kids. Now I'm trying to convince myself that I'm not repeating history and being EA to them

I am still listening and sympathise with so much of what is being said here. The psychological manipulation, the blindness, the going round and round the poisonous sore but never removing it in order not to upset her as she's getting older and suffered so much.... ahh I just want to have a raging tantrum right now.

How do people who feel like this deal with Mother's day and Christmas? I can't bring myself to play any fake games this year. I am too angry for that.

Ariande, your mum is trying to use your need for her money to try and control you. DO NOT TAKE IT. If you don't take it, she has far less control over you. That's the thing though, narcs will do what they can to control the scapegoat, because they fear losing control of them, which in turn may mean that their true nature will be exposed for all to see.

I've gone where you may be going (I've already taken the money), but I'm saving up to give the money back to her and will leave it somewhere where she will find it after I move. I will leave a note in the envelope as well, but will be very careful how I word it so that there is very little she can come back with.

My mum does the obsessive ringing thing and the PA asks if my phone is broken. When I call back and say I was busy she says "Oh I won't bother you then" and hangs up. She also goes in a mood if tell her to call back as its DD bedtime or we're having dinner. No one is ever as important as she is.

She's visiting family 2 hours away at the moment and has to go abroad in the next few days for a funeral. She rang and said can we have her dog. We are a dogless house and I really don't like dogs, plus DD age 3 hasn't really learnt boundaries with dogs yet, but I'm weak and said ok. Except she wants us to go down and collect him on Friday when DH is at work. No "please" just a demand. I'm not driving a 4-5 round trip on what's set to be a red hot day on my own with a 3yo just to collect her dog.

Now I'm the bad guy who's being difficult and she may not be able to say goodbye to her friend's husband because of me. Never mind that her own son and her own brother is a mile away from where she is now, and he has dogs and no kids, she doesn't want to ask favours of him

I've also had to ask my boss for an extended lunch hour tomorrow so I can post her passport to her. It HAS to be tomorrow, and before 1pm. Again, no 'please'. Only 5 texts tonight asking if I've been to hers to get her passport, when i was putting DD to bed and, you know, actually working. When I reply to say I have got it, not even a thank you.

I have to stop this I really do. I just don't know how

Hi,

This is my first post here & just wanted to saw that a lot of what some you have written here rings true with me.

It's taken me having my own children to understand just how toxic and EA my mother was/is with me. She is better than what she was when I was a child but she still has her moments.

There are things and behaviours she did which, as a child, I didn't realise weren't normal. I spent much of my younger years being afraid of her. My parents separated when I was 9 and things got worse from there on. I always bore the brunt of her temper & mood swings.

I know that how she is with me has a lot to do with her relationship with her own mother who is a narcissist of the highest order.

Her behaviour towards me as a child has made me into a people pleaser & I find it difficult to say no to people. I have suffered from depression & social anxiety in the past.

My biggest fear is history repeating itself & me treating my own children this way.

How do I stop this from happening?

Pinky I feel your phone call pain. I have no solution except to not be always available, there's zero respect on her end, you are nothing except a vessel to facilitate her whims...so why bother jumping through loops to make her happy, if she's anything like my M she doesn't give a shit who she inconveniences. Part of me thinks she enjoys putting people out, gets a weird buzz from it. M makes weird requests on purpose when there's a solution that wouldn't be any trouble. I'm getting more mindful of these now and not breaking my neck doing the thankless tasks that she's invented for me.

Champers - I am so worried too and I am constantly trying to get a balance with DD. As a fellow people pleaser I find it difficult to not be an eternal pushover.
I was scared shitless of my mother when I was a child (and still am at times)
I am actually getting some therapy, it's to help ensure I don't wreck DD's head. I have had counselling before but currently I feel I need a top up.
This thread has made me realise I cannot keep battling on hoping the wind will change and she'll turn into a normal M, that ain't going to happen and I need the tools to deal with it myself.