support thread for those of us having to 'co-parent' with a narc or very difficult exh

[besshope]

Step this way...
May I start of with a great big ROAR of frustration at having spent many years having to co-parent with someone who (after he left me for OW) has gone out of his way to make my life as difficult as possible. I know there are many of us, so here's a space to share frustrations, tips and experiences.

I do wonder sometimes if it is my reality that is wrong. becuase he constantly makes me second guess myself I just think "it must be me". But then I think Ok...
Do I give him anxiety to the point that he is physically ill? - No
Do I refuse to take no for an answer and insist I am right? - No
Do I tell him he is lazy, stupid, pathetic etc? - No
Do I raise my voice, use hand and arm gestures to intimidate? No

he may beleive I am controlling but I know that my actions don't give him the same feelings that his do for me. he doesn't do what I ask out of fear. he just refuses and says that I am controlling him.

But if you refuse to walk on eggshells and just get on with your life - you are not being controlled. He is not being controlled by me. If he is right that I am trying, it is clear I am not succeeding.

I am a bad controller! he is great at it.

I think you've hit the nail on the head nice

Remember thank you for those questions. I think I needed something like that to really convince myself that it isn't me, it isn't all in my head. Nothing I do affects him at all, not even when we were together. Maybe he might have had some outburst of 'emotion' because I did something he didn't like or, most likely, thought I did something he didn't like, but in reality I wasn't even skin deep with him. He had a hold over my entire life but, as proved, I haven't had an impact on his regardless of his announcements of undying love, proposal etc.

I think a good indicator Remember is does he do this to anybody else, and has anybody else ever made me feel like this?

The fact that you are actually having to question your own reactions, feelings etc, to such a detailed extent, is proof itself that something is going massively wrong. We all have periods where we know we could have handled something better. Sometimes our reactions are off, but we can usually acknowledge it, apologise or prevent it happening in the future.

The FOG is often spoken about on here; fear, obligation, guilt. If I think of the end of my EA relationship my head felt like it was full of cotton wool. You are with someone who is turning everything on it's head. You're right that if you were controlling you wouldn't feel like this.

I suspect that in your case he portrays you as controlling when, in fact, you are just taking charge of your own feelings. When he sees that he is not having the desired effect upon you he tries to turn the tables. If he has no respect for you, and no regard for your feelings, then you actually attempting to stand up for yourself will look to him like insolence perhaps? Again, this is where I don't think they "see" the other person as just that, a whole other person.

Remember that they are incapable of love, real love. And they are incapable of empathy.

They simply cannot put themselves in other people's shoes.

When you come to terms with that - it's half the battle for you.

All the advice is brilliant Bonfire.

Keep it factual. Don't try and engage. Read the previous posts about acting like a grey stone (?)

Ignore all the insults. Keep to typed messages though and keep a record. But when the typed insults come don't respond.

If they are verbal as said, laugh like a loon or shake your head in disbelief.

Never make him plan A.

He will use all of your fears and weaknesses.

If the children come home with bad mouthed comments then say "oh dear that's not a nice thing to say about me, maybe he feels sad about things" or whatever is age appropriate.

Do. Not. Engage.

Even if you are biting off your tongue.

Then come here, rant here...we all all here and we believe you.

It's such a horrible thing to be glad that people have experienced this too...I wish none of us had but at least I feel I can talk about it now, might help me deal with things in a better way.

My DD is almost 3 but when she went to his about 2 months or so ago I remember him texting me saying 'DD said this today, mommy fat' as well as other crap. Immediately I rose to this knowing full well she never even had said the word fat let alone referred to someone else as it. He always called me fat, especially post pregnancy so I wouldn't be surprised if he had said it in front of her, either to her or someone else they were around. Now I realise that he is exercising his control I can just ignore him when he pushes me, but I really do struggle. I have a short temper which when paired with him knowing how to press my buttons..it's not a great mix. But I'll be counting to ten these days, and mentally imagining a worser fate for him.

So tired tonight but wanted to say I so wholeheartedly agree with you all.

I apparently never did anything around the house either (hahahaha). I was also accused of being the controlling one, or a shit parent, whatever it was he was doing and I was trying to address. I think it's called projecting?

messedup that's a great link, thank you. Another jigsaw piece has fallen into place with the term counter parenting.

nice you have it, right there. That's my ex, word for word.

I doubt myself too and find it extremely difficult to trust anyone. It's affecting other relationships because I start seeing potential control tactics, even in people I simply know would never do that. I doubt my own judgement. It's yet another example of the subtle damage he's done.

Natsku sending you and best wishes, hope everything is resolved soon. Wishing everyone else a good night's sleep and strength to keep on going.

Ooh can I join? My ex is either a Narc or a psychopath or high functioning Aspergers, depending on which professional you speak to. Prob a combo of all three. Says he wants to "Destroy me" and has been trying to since we split 2013. His contact with DD is all about keeping her from me and ensuring I don't have more time with her than he does. (He'll pick her up and drop her off at his parents. So it's not about spending time with her; it;s about making sure she's not with me) NO interaction can ever be straight forward. Any request is met with aggression. Every email is a lecture and is bullying. Very intimidating. For me and for dd. Nightmare.

Just moved myself into the box room to get away. Literally sleeping on the floor. Was told that I can't take half the furniture or expect payment for it because I didn't earn as much as him during our marriage. Then he denied saying that our meaning it like that. But those were his words. Just putting it down here so I don't get gaslightEd. Alli asked for was some financial help to pay for furnature for my new home as I was leaving him with everything we had paid for together. Clearly he hasaid other ideas.

Welcome Betty. Sorry you have the need to join us but glad you have. That sounds like 3 years of torment. What will he decide is the point at which you are destroyed I wonder? He's the only one destined to destroy anything, his relationship with his daughter, and you won't be there to help repair that. What a fool.

Greencar. I know what you mean about the trust. I've started to maintain my friendships very much on my own terms. I'm trying to strike a balance between trusting, being open, but also protecting myself. My friends have done nothing wrong, I just feel like everyone is potentially going to let me down. I'm trying to console myself with the fact that I now have the strength to walk away when it suits me. It's not a nice way to be though, I'm hoping time will help.

Remember how long do you have until you move into yor new home? I've tried to look back to read more of what you have shared, sorry if I ask the same questions you have answered. Do you have any family that can give you any bits, or is it even possible to just take things and deal (ignore) with the fallout later? I'm not really sure on division of things as we moved to a house and ex moved to a studio flat in London so we took pretty much everything, luckily. He did want to take things even though I paid for it all, but I think he didn't want to pay out for it to be taken to his new place, especially when he had no space.

One thing I spotted when looking back was the mention of family. I never really made a connection with his relationship with his parents but some of what some of you have said rings true. His parents were divorced and his dad died when he was a teenager. He loved him but what I've been told he was married to his job. His mom is a recovering alcoholic and would leave him in the house on his own when he was younger etc etc. So not really there for him. His mother is very overbearing, bitches about her own children and I don't think she has any relationship with him and his two sisters now. He also only barely has contact with one of his sisters, always complaining that they were all screwed up... obviously not him though, no of course not. The only thing I've managed to work out is his desperation for having a family. He doesn't have anyone around him (blood family) that he cares for and I think he is desperate for that. I fell pregnant 3 months after getting together because he threw my pill away. We had discussed having children, which is a lot more than I had done in any long term relationship I had been in, and I got caught up in his 'love' for me. I agreed to trying for a child but I was still taking my pill because I was so unsure and knew it was too soon. He then found that I was still on it and threw them all away and I fell pregnant immediately. I had planned to go to the doctor to get an injection or something but by the time my appointment came round I was saying I think I'm pregnant. He trapped me basically. I left him when I was 3 months pregnant and God damn I wish I didn't return.

remember. Off to bed but wanted to respond to your post. As far as I'm aware everything will be seen as a marital asset. It doesn't matter therefore who earned what during the marriage. I think he's talking out of his arse, but hopefully somebody better qualified than me will be along.

Have you had any legal advice yet? Maybe refuse to engage in any of his bullshit until you know exactly where you stand.

Just think, soon you'll have your own room, and you won't have to sleep on the floor to get away from him. Hope he has bad dreams and his alarm fails to go off!!

Well I certainly won't wake him. I am still waiting to Hear if i have got a place. But if it goes through I am out in two weeks. I have been buyinn bits second hand and on ebay. My friend can give me loads of stuff. But it feels so unfair that I walk away with nothing. He keeps telling me I dint have to go anywhere and that he wants me to stay but that he respects my choice. But he won't help as he doesn't agree. How the heel do I make him see I an leaving due to his behaviour.
I asked him if he would accept his behaviour and continue to live with it. He refused to answer until I answered the same question. I refused. But I know he would never accept it.
He is also enjoying pointing out how calm he is compared to me. How I get so angry and that affects how I act. He sits there so smug and so pleased to see he has had such an effect on me.
Will call solicitors tomorrow. He says to do what I think is best for me and he will too. If he speaks to a lawyer they will explain that I get half of everything regardless.
Was just reading lindy daily wisdoms and one about financial abuse came up. It pointed out that being a mother and looking after the home has the same value as working. I know that but he made me feel so devalued. Yes I now earn enough but all those years when he told me what's mine is yours. ..he was lying.
Plus I lost so much confidence due to being told how useless I was that my earnings potential was always smaller.
I just can't believe he would say I don't deserve half. It really hurts.

Oh remember this sounds so familiar. The refusing to answer questions until you answer the same one, commenting on your behaviour sitting there looking smug at winding you up, the attitude around you leaving, refusing to recognise the value of childcare, lowering earning potential by damaging confidence. I can picture this all so clearly because I've been there too.

First of all, I would second getting legal advice. Mine comes out with all sorts about what he can do, doesn't have to do, I have to do, etc etc etc and it was at its worst during leaving. I now check everything he says, even when I already know it's lies. Never take his word for anything.

Secondly, about making him see you're leaving because of his behaviour. I'm truly sorry, it's possible he never will. If he's as like my ex as he sounds, he fully believes he is in the right and that his behaviour is either acceptable, or caused by you and therefore excusable. I tried to make mine see, desperately hard, and all it achieved was more bile directed at me. He's still manipulative and controlling now and I wish I'd managed to disengage instead of giving him more to turn around and throw back at me.

Have to underline what Greencar is saying....

A true narc has no empathy. Will never take the blame, never realise that they had a negative part to play.

You have to find a way to bury it, move on and find your own peace.

When my STBEXH let me down last week at last minute (because it's easy to forget you are in Vienna when you are meant to look after your child, right? ), I didn't even respond.

The old me would have been infuriated that by accepting this behaviour I create a pattern which means that he can go on with no comeback for his responsibilities, and continue to lead his life selfishly. And I would have felt the need to tell him that.

The new me knows that he'll do it regardless. And the more I tell him it makes me angry, the more he will do it. So I always need to have him as plan Z B and someone else to fall back on or another plan to cope.

But the new me is keeping a diary of all the commitments he's fucked up. And next time the new me gets verbally abused for Christmas holidays, not getting his own way etc I will calmly open my notes on the phone and read the list "Times SpunkTrumpet has let me DS down" until he walks away.

Nice - the whole letting me down thing really resonated. That's the reason I turned on my lovely DP last week. He couldn't make a meeting and I completely overreacted.

How he's forgiven me for being a total shithead about it I don't know. He did last night thankfully.

Holy crap after 13 years in a twisted marriage it's like I need a relationship 101 course to begin again.

There should be some kind of "Life after Narc survival course".

Nice - the whole letting me down thing really resonated. That's the reason I turned on my lovely DP last week. He couldn't make a meeting and I completely overreacted.

How he's forgiven me for being a total shithead about it I don't know. He did last night thankfully.

Holy crap after 13 years in a twisted marriage it's like I need a relationship 101 course to begin again.

There should be some kind of "Life after Narc survival course".

I wouldn't even know where to begin with a relationship after my ex. He's terrified me. I was seeing someone last year for about 5 months and not once did I agree to go for dinner or do anything publicly, I just wanted to keep it all secret because I felt like I could have more control over it that way. My ex always made me feel uncomfortable when I went out, with or without him, and he got off (literally) on asking who had looked at me and why i thought they were looking at me. He would use it as a tool to be rough with me and then when he had got his kicks he would be angry that I'd 'allowed' people to look at me. I was making up things that happened to begin with because I just assumed it was a turn on for him, but then he would humiliate me afterwards and say it's because they knew I was a slut (apparently so because I hadn't saved my virginity for him...).

As everyone has said and I'm only fully beginning to understand, you can't win. But we will help you come out the other side.

This thread is like Ground Hog day sometimes, but in a good way ! It shows how common all this is, and how they follow the bloody script!!

After my ex had left he was still coming into the house to see the dc. One time he sidled up to me and said he'd been doing some sums. He'd worked out that "his" mortgage repayments now roughly equaled the lump sum (very large) that I'd put into our property. It was therefore really his house, and all that was in it, oh, and the car.

I was very calm and pointed out that it didn't matter what he'd worked out, we owned it 50/50 and nothing would change that. I asked what he thought I'd been doing for the last few years? Wasn't it, as agreed, being at home with our children, did that now count for nothing? Cue sarcastic remark.

He has been reasonable in that he wants the kids to stay in the house till they finish their education. His maintenance is that he pays the mortgage - but absolutely nothing else. Financially this is fine for me. Several people close to me have said make him pay you the money, then you pay the mortgage. I did consider this, as he used it as a way to be unkind sometimes. But then I thought no, you can pay the mortgage on a house you no longer live in because you behaved like a complete tosser. Every time you see it on your bank statement maybe it'll jog your memory.

Looking back there were many times when he referred to "his" mortgage, I always corrected him to "ours". He clearly thought it was always all his.

Bonfire I had to read your last post a couple of times, that's so messed up. You couldn't win in that situation whatever you did, just as other posters have said they can't win now with their ex. There is definitely a theme coming through with how to deal with these idiots. Perhaps we'll publish a guide book, to go with LemonPledge's handbook for Life after a Narc, maybe "Controlling the Counter-Parent - how not to give a shit"

Thank you for the use of Spunk Trumpet LemonPledge. That's a corker that I'll be adding to my MN filth list [grins].

epic typing failures in last line - must put my glasses on !

Thank you everyone. Feeling better today. I agree with the walk away and ignore option. It really is the only thing. Mine seems to have had a rethink over nightand now claims he is happy for me to have half of everything and always had been...I imagined that then.
But I have managed to get some reasonable agreements from him that should help me.
That's if I ever hear back about the flat I want. ...beend sending documents back and forth for a week now. So worried I will miss out on it and be back where I starated.
Good luck to you all. At least you can avoid once you are out and you have some sort of control. I am looking forward to that.

So you've been gas lighted remember, but in your favour?!

Glad to see some positives, hope you get some good news on the flat.

Get it in writing, remember.

Because it will change again, you can be almost certain of that.

YY to Frogs advice.

It's hard but don't let your guard down or assume anything until it actually happens for the positive.

False sense of security is something we've all suffered in the early stages I think.

Aaaaaaah. Permission to rant, ladies?! Nothing dreadful just bloody annoying.

It's XBox time again! Don't know if any of you remember, but I posted last week that ex had driven off without dc because he wouldn't let him bring the Xbox. I kind of understood him not wanting him to bring it, but couldn't believe it escalated into him leaving dc here.

In the meantime I'd mentioned, in a text to ex, that I'd told dc the XBox was really for here. There is no need for him to take it, I didn't want it causing arguments. No reply to this part of the text, of course, that would be co-parenting .

Roll on tonight. Dc goes to ask his dad if he can bring it, I say no, don't ask. He runs out anyway, comes back saying the answer is yes but he's got to set it up, dad will be busy. Cue a delay, my other dc is getting anxious, ex starts ranting so she runs in and says dad says you can't bring it, he'll be too busy. WTF?

Long story short, dc is rolling on bedroom floor crying. He doesn't want to take it now as he says dad's angry, but does want to take it. He ends up not going with him, but I drop him there for an hour later as it's near to somewhere I have to go.

In the car he tells me that my other dc spends a lot of her time upstairs on her phone. How this is different from being on the XBox I don't know. He starts saying he'd maybe like to live with dad, because then he could help him, and give him someone to talk to ! Long discussion ensues about daddy has to make his own life, as I have, and that he only has himself to look after the majority of the time. Apparently he has a lot of washing! I informed dc that daddy couldn't work the washing machine when he lived with us, so it showed he was able to learn to look after himself.

On collecting him my dc said he'd sat alone watching tv whilst dad washed up and did jobs. I asked if dad generally sat and did things with them during an evening visit. He said no, but I know they do eat together, watch films and play outside if it's nice. Don't you think you'd make the most of that hour though, especially since the argument before. Twat.

When I was standing at my front door my ex, for the first time, actually looked at me. I instinctively raised my hand and nodded. He looked at me with a completely blank face.

Tonight has actually done me a favour. With his reasonable texts over the past couple of weeks I was starting to imagine some semblance of co-parenting. I now officially give up. The poem quoted up thread by Bonfire has made me really think tonight. I think so much of what I saw in him was only there when he was a reflection of me. Sad.

(Just to add, I do recognise my dc is a little bugger for asking his dad about the XBox when I had said no. Words have been exchanged!)