I am sure I did the right thing - but marriage might be over

[rememberthetime]

Our teenage daughter suffers with a mental health condition and has been seeing a specialised therapist. part of her problem is that she cannot sleep outside of our home as it causes her huge anxiety tot he point she will be in hysterics for most of the night. Tonight H and I were due to take our older child to London and stay over and had arranged to leave younger DD with her Nan. We had assumed she was better (due to the therapy) and we hoped it would be a chance for her to prove how she ahs improved. She had a complete meltdown last night and literally begged me not to make her go. She was hugely upset and distressed and I just knew it wasn't right to do this to her for the sake of a night in a hotel.

I told DH I couldn't go and that he would have to go alone. I didn't feel it fair to palce the burden of a mentally unwell child on my MIL and that we could make things worse. he didn't take it well.

We are doing counselling for our marriage and had agreed to trying to "co-parent" effectively. Part of this has been agreeing to how we would deal with things. We had agreed to sending DH to her nans and he has stuck to that. he thinks I have given in and let myself down because my own "stuff" about my childhood influenced my decision.

he uses a lot of psychobabble when he talks to me and I end up feeling wrong and misguided. But in this case i think I did the right thing. She is not ready yet and I just couldn't put his needs ahead of hers. She is a child and he is an adult. But he cannot forgive me and is not speaking to me. He wants me to "think about what I have done" and the how huge it is in how it has set back out process of healing our marriage.

For background - he is a recovering controller. I am usually scared to go against what he wants, but felt strong enough to do what i thought best in this case. Even though i have placed myself in the position of blame.

I have asked the question on the mental health board about if I did the right thing for my daughter and i am sure i did. I can't put her through that and i am supposed to protect her. But is my DH right to be angry at me? Do I deserve to be treated badly by him because i put her first and destroyed our "co-parenting" deal.

There was no way he would have allowed her to do anything other than what we had planned. I have never seen him change his mind on anything once he has decided a course of action.

So I am home alone tonight and he has gone by himself. We have another counselling session later in the week and I expect to be accused of all sorts.

he said I can't tell him when he can talk to me. That it is trying to control him.

He deliberately chooses to be literal with things doesn't he? People like this always switch it around and are quick off the mark with a comeback, which is twisted to suit them.

All he needed to say is "no problem. When would be a better time for you."

I'm simply floored by the number of women married to or living with controlling and abusive men.

I don't know if it's purely down to their upbringing or their ability to get away with it, but such men should remain single and not have children, so that they control themselves.

They have children walking on eggshells, frightened of them and unaware how very damaging it is for them. I had a friend when I was a kid who was petrified of her dad.

When she heard his car outside, it was panic and her brother would also jump up, tidy up quickly and be there to greet him or there was trouble.

When she came to my house, my dad was playful and would joke with us. She couldn't believe it, because she didn't know any different.

I am exhausted just reading all this and you've lived with it for years.

You still seem to be holding him up as somehow a bit superior to you, referring to him as very clever etc. He's not, he's a bully who blames everyone for everything.

I'm pretty sure that all of your family's mental health will improve if you were to be living away from him. In the meantime I think you should begin to detach. The counselling and ensuing discussions are sending you round and round in circles which he is creating to prove himself right yet again.

Life is too short.

Leave.

Back again - needed a little space to get my head straight. Talked to H on the weekend following his sending me the links. I explained that i felt he was using the counselling as a tool to control me and that I didn't appreciate being told to read this or do that. He asked did i want to stop counselling and I said that there was no good answer to that because he will simply accuse me of not trying for the kids.

But I said that i did not want to go to counselling. he pointed out that we were trying to be good co-parents and the counselling was for that purpose - so effectively doing exactly what I knew he would.

We have a session tomorrow and i am going to tell her I will not be returning. Not least because he uses what i say against me but also because I believe her to be colluding with him.

She actually said that the man of the house should make the final decisions after a compromise has been reached. That he should be the one to announce any decisions because children respond more favourably to that dynamic (ie where the man is in charge). When I questioned that and said i did not agree she pointed out it didn't go against feminist beliefs but that it gave stability to the kids. that they could trust one strong member of the family.

My husband said that i would never go along with something like that but that he understood it. he acted like there was something inherently wrong with me and that I put my own feminist principles ahead of the needs of the kids. WTF!

She didn't understand that she was handing power to him and that he is able to talk me around to any of his own beliefs. he will claim he has compromised with me, when in fact I have given in. Then he can announce to the kids that i agree and show himself to be fully in charge not only of them, but of me too. Now he can say - well remember what the counsellor said - that i should be the one to announce things to the kids. its better for them, remember... Where does that place me in the family? directly below him in their eyes - even if we are making decisions together, they aren't seeing that.

I don't think she understands abusive men. At all.

We go away on holiday next week. I am putting off a decision on anything until after then. But I am determined to get out.

I didn't get the job btw. That has scuppered my financial plans.

Actually, you know what...I am not going tomorrow. he can go alone as it has to be paid for. But i am not putting myself through that again.

Oh OP. This is so awful for you.

I don't think there's any point carrying on with the counselling. Things aren't going to get better. Your H is a controlling mind fuck. We see it, your dd sees it and I think you see it too.

You would all be so much better away from him.

Incidentally you mentioned up thread that your ds "apparently" said he loved having two supportive parents (I'm on my iPad and paraphrasing). What do mean "apparently"? Did your H tell you that? If so, it's a big fat guilt tripping lie.

Oh OP. This is so awful for you.

I don't think there's any point carrying on with the counselling. Things aren't going to get better. Your H is a controlling mind fuck. We see it, your dd sees it and I think you see it too.

You would all be so much better away from him.

Incidentally you mentioned up thread that your ds "apparently" said he loved having two supportive parents (I'm on my iPad and paraphrasing). What do mean "apparently"? Did your H tell you that? If so, it's a big fat guilt tripping lie.

Yes, apparently...I wasn't there. But it is the sort of thing my DS would say because my H is very very supportive of him Especially when it comes to taking him places. They share an interest which means they have a lot in common.
My H did recently say that he had nurtured a relationship with our son so that he would choose to stay with him should we split. I don't think he even understood how utterly wrong that is.He accused me of doing it with our dd. I just wouldn't even think to do that. He says he's not doing that anymore but that it did consciously go through his mind. I wondered why he didn't want to do it with our dd too. How unfair is that - at least if you are going to manipulate your children you should do it to them both equally. Not choose the easy one to be your favourite....

I am ready to take the next steps. I just don't know what they are just yet. I am financially in a difficult place. I have my own income, but it is only enough to keep my head above water, just...no savings and some debt. I could earn more, but there is a limit to that.

I just don't have the money to move out.will read the link up thread and see what my options are.

I'm sorry you didn't get the job, but you can still afford to leave. Here's the link again (the one I shared earlier on the thread): You can afford to leave (PDF)

It's worth pointing out that you don't have to leave. You could stay and he could leave. However, it sounds unlikely that he would agree to leave, so you need to look into your options.

I think your best bet is to call Women's Aid on 0808 2000 247, as they will be able to give you practical advice and emotional support as you make your plans. Please do call them.

You could also talk to Citizens Advice, as they are particularly good on benefits and debts, and they should also be able to advise about free or low cost legal help you might be entitled to.

FWIW, that "counsellor" sounds absolutely appalling. You could consider making a complaint - does she work for an organisation (eg Relate) or is she independent? Anyway I suppose that's low on the priority list - I do think you need to focus on talking to Women's Aid and making plans - but maybe something to consider further down the line.

Well the deed is done. Emil sent to the counsellor explaining i wasn't going and that i felt the tools taught to us were being used against me. Told dh. he isn't impressed but is going himself tomorrow - to talk through how that made him feel.

He asked why - of course. I explained that she focused on communication and that we would never be able to communicate properly when he fails to "listen". That i wasn't comfortable with the way he used my lack of communication as a sign of my failings rather than as a sign of his own failure to listen to me. I don't think he got it. he knows this is a big sign.

The ideas the counsellor gave us would work with any other couple - but with emotional abuse and controlling behaviour a strong part of our relationship it was never going to work. She just didn't understand how he could twist it to his advantage.

Its a bit like sharing a bank account. In a normal relationship it will work fine. In an abusive one it is a disaster waiting to happen. Counselling will work for normal couples who just have trouble communicating.

Going forward i will get through this holiday and try to work out my next steps.

I had a thought today as I was taking the sweet potato chips out of the oven...how is it that my dd in her early teens has the measure of dh and has chosen the best course of action for her own needs and yet I as an adult have been unable to?

She is utterly convinced that no good can come from forming a relationship with anyone who hurts you. She applies it to everyone who has ever caused her harm from family members to friends. I am amazed at her tenacity but a little dismayed at how she can cast people aside.

I think the next few days are going to be fraught. I have that sick anxious feeling again.

You have done the right thing.

I am so glad your dd can see through all of her father's controlling and devious behaviour.

I suspect your ds is only following a script to keep in his father's good books.

You need to be getting your escape plan together.

Good luck - you can do this.

Does he "golden child" & "scapegoat" the kids?

So glad you cancelled, well done you

Something to think about - why do you feel has the right to make rules about how the rest of the you should behave?

That is a serious question, because he doesn't you know. He has no rights and no power except what you give him. He's your husband, he's supposed to be there to love you, not to dictate to you.

What shouldn't you make the rules? Or in an equally balanced household why don't you make the rules one day and he makes them the next?

Forget the counselling (and PP are correct, that counsellor should be reported) and the psychobabble and the sheer headfuckery of it all. Walk away with your DC and don't look back. Don't engage, don't talk it through just do it. I guarantee you and your DC will be happier.

oh god OP i feel for you. my XH was like this. he would set standards for me, but not tell me what they were - only 'advising' me when i didn't meet them. any protestations that i didn't have a hope in hell of pleasing him was met with faux-concern over my mental state and enquiries about why i was being confrontational.

we didn't have any children together. he was wildly jealous of my DD and often wanted me to collude in 'disappointment' at her perceived failings.

i had a breakdown in the end. when we split up he pushed and pushed and pushed me so that i would be the one to say let's end it - so that he could then indulge his own 'poor me' narrative, bravely bearing unbearable, disobedient, weak-willed me.

my XH is a fucking prick and DD and i are much, much happier without him. your husband sounds like he might be a massive prick too. hold hard, OP, and stand your ground. if he wants to be in control, let him fuck off and live by himself.

i really hope you realise how strong you are, and advise you to kick this douchcanoe into touch. rooting for you.

douchecanoe. fucks sake.

Your poor dd
She has been majorly damaged by him. I have an ex friend who does that with people who hurt her. She has a trail of ex best friends behind her, and several family members who are just fucked off out of her life when she feels hurt or let down by them. It's a sad way to live. She has nobody in her life with any longevity. When you have removed her from his pernicious influence you should talk to her about addressing it in therapy.

You should never have been in counselling with him. He is abusive. What was the counsellor thinking?!

OP - please, please be very careful. You could be me 6yrs ago. You are unmasking him and it will not be appreciated - he could become violent towards you and your DD. My XH is exactly like this and he became violent when confronted with his abusive behaviour - controlling, manipulative, gaslighting - everything in the Freedom Prog and also used counselling as a control tool. He still uses anything he can even the court order for his fortnightly contact. He also favours one of our 3 DCs which continues even attempting to gain custody ONLY of the 'golden child' - not interested in the other 2. It's hard even 6yrs on when I see the torn loyalties the children have but I can assure you of this, your life and the life of your DCs will be so much better. It will take time, it will hurt, he will stoop to depths you never knew existed to make you look bad, unhinged etc but surely this is better than living/existing at the whim of this abuser? You deserve better, your children deserve better and they cannot be safe if you are not safe. Speak to Womens Aid, Refuge and the local police may have a crisis intervention team who can help with getting you moved somewhere safe and help you decide what to do next.

So sorry you are going through this, I have RTFT and can't really add anything to the useful advice you have had so far.
I was just wondering how your daughter is feeling about going on holiday (if I read correctly that you all going away). What a great step for her to take. I hope you have a great time.

I too have RTFT, it sounds relentlessly challenging.
The double standards: "he said I can't tell him when he can talk to me." but later "he told me the conversation was not going well and he wasn't going to continue"
The moving goal posts: His ultimate domination no matter what you say, he twists it into you not thinking, not understanding & basically not agreeing with him. The councillor sounds useless & is giving him power, as if he hasn't already decided he is always right.
he is projecting about separation & has chosen the golden child, (male with no "problems)", & is grooming to this end.
The whole nightmare you are living is inevitably making you anxious,stressed, panic. His every conversation done deliberately to wrong foot you.
Your daughter is intuitive, he is toxic, he is poisoning your life & hers.

Of course you could not leave with her having a melt down. how can a night away "trump" that ? It is visceral, even if you had agreed on the theory, the reality was that physically leaving her like that was not possible. Any normal parent would understand.
Your night away was an experiment, it could be postponed.

Please get yourself & your daughter away urgently. Sod the holiday, he can go. Time away from him will show you how to breath, & be yourself & not some kind of puppet. you can sing in the kitchen, (not do the washing up). lie on the grass & look at the clouds, (not perform like a circus animal) ..... Trust yourself, he has manipulated & controlled you for so long.

Ultimately, I ask you, If you won the lottery tomorrow what would you do ? I surmise you would be gone in an instant.

ps. There is no such thing as a "recovering controller"

Thank you for the replies.
Yes, DD is finding the idea of our holiday challenging. When it was first announced it caused one of many rows between her and DH. He told her she sounded ungrateful as she was asking lots of questions about it and sounded dubious. She is better now and we have ensured she will have her own room and that the location is interesting enough so that she will enjoy the days. But I am not expecting it to go without a hitch...

Yes, dd will get therapy but i expect that she will become much calmer and happier away from all this.

I don't have any fear of violence. he knows he doesn't need to go that far. However as I am pushing back he might realise that his words are having less effect on me. He does know that violence is a last straw for me and it would destroy his reputation as the nice guy.He did once say that he could understand why I had been hit in a previous relationship...that served as a warning I guess.

I have to and want to go on the holiday. We have saved hard for it and I only have one week off work each year and this is it. I am bloody well going to enjoy myself. I can pretend as i do all the time that all is well and ensure it is a nice time for the kids.

exWife...I am amazed that anyone even remotely like my dh exists. it is nice to hear i am not the only one. They pull you in with their amazing talents and love bombing, only the mask slips and they reveal they actually don't like you very much.

I know that my husband thinks he has changed becuase he understands how his childhood has influenced his behaviour. But the ultimate change in attitude towards me hasn't changed. he still thinks i need fixing and that he should be the one to do it.

Over the years I have had lectures about my weight, my lack of ambition, my lack of confidence, my lack of housekeeping skills, my inconsistency with the kids, my inability to stick to anything and now it is my inability to fully take on the challenges of therapy and work hard to understand myself.

I lost weight, I found a job, I doubled my income, i followed recipes, I passed my driving test and I went to counselling. I can't say I didn't try.

What he doesn't realise is that most of these things were the result of his constant pressure. I take responsibility for not standing up to him, but i can't take responsibility for the things he did to me.

I realise that i will never be the person he wants me to be because I am always the scapegoat. I told him the other day that i could be the best communicator in the world and he would find something else at fault to latch on to. He completely denies that. but I just don't want to bother waiting to find out.

Enjoy your holiday, for you & your DCs, you can effectively ignore or refuse to interact with him. Any snipes, just play deaf. Deconnecting is an interesting time, watch him from within your bubble the "cycle" to appease, love bomb, criticise, gaslight, ignore, & repeat.
Think, plan, & Yes, do not wait to find out if he would just find another "fault" in you. There will be, he doesn't want to take you as you are, he wants to bully & dominate. You cannot change that,
He is effectively "sick". His sickness is incurable

She actually said that the man of the house should make the final decisions after a compromise has been reached. That he should be the one to announce any decisions because children respond more favourably to that dynamic (ie where the man is in charge). When I questioned that and said i did not agree she pointed out it didn't go against feminist beliefs but that it gave stability to the kids. that they could trust one strong member of the family.

What pure and utter twaddle from the counsellor. I've never heard such nonsense. She's a lunatic.

I am amazed at her tenacity but a little dismayed at how she can cast people aside.

I do this as well. I just don't have the time for people who give me hassle or feel they know it all and I just cut them out of my life without looking back.

It's a way of protecting yourself l, but some people may view it as conflict avoidance. I really hate conflict, so if someone irritates me or offends me , I don't argue with them ... I'll either block them on FB and I don't contact them again.

I tend to see the best side of people - so I am assuming the counsellor just explained the idea wrong. Actually me seeing the best side is a problem for my DD as it is construed by her as not standing up for her. I just try to make excuses for people because I also hate conflict.

I have explained to dd that family is family - you don't get to pick and choose. But you can choose to take the best bits and ignore the rest. Not sure it is an approach that has worked for me tho!