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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Can't afford Relate but MIL is offering to pay - WWYD?

274 replies

LazyCake · 18/07/2016 08:58

DH and I have been having lots of problems, for a very long time. We recently started to receive counselling from Relate, but are really, really struggling to pay for the sessions, which take place every week and cost £65. The counselling has been helpful to a degree, it makes me feel calmer as I am no longer dealing with all the problems and worrying about the future on my own. DH says that he enjoys it (a bit odd, but good I suppose?!)

Anyway, our finances are in chaos, and any discussion of how things might be improved leads to long arguments that go nowhere. This has been going on for years, but has got worse recently. Today I am trying to work out how to feed DD until payday, which is ridiculous as DH is on a good salary. So the added drain on our finances caused by Relate's £65 a week fees is not helping matters.

I suggested to DH that we stop receiving counselling, simply because we cannot afford it. He agreed initially, but then said that he had discussed it with his Mum, who had offered to meet the cost of 10 sessions as a birthday present. There are lots of reasons why I think this is not a good idea - to begin with, it's just a miserable, depressing thing to receive for your birthday, isn't it? And then there's the fact that I think that the eventual outcome of the counselling will be separation. MIL certainly does not realise this - she things we are just having 'a few problems'. She is very traditional, strict Christian upbringing, etc, and this will come as a dreadful blow to her. Also, I don't want DH acting the martyr over the fact he has received such a present - I feel guilty enough.

But if I don't accept MIL's offer to pay, am I throwing away the chance to try to work on our marriage and make thing better for DD? H will certainly reproach me with this for years to come, especially if we do end up separating, and maybe he would be right to do so?

OP posts:
SandyY2K · 22/07/2016 12:53

I don't think that incident was gaslighting. He ended up saying he thought he told you. Gaslighting would be insisting that he told you.

I cannot believe how he controls the food money. Why doesn't he let you even go shopping with him to buy what you want?

I reckon he has several secret stashes of money and he could well have money deducted at source as a salary sacrifice that goes into a savings scheme.

How can he claim to love DD yet providing food for her is a problem.
It's madness!

Common sense would tell him if he treated you well and wasnt a controlling manipulator you probably wouldn't want to leave.

He's digging his own grave.

LazyCake · 22/07/2016 16:50

SausageDog - I'm really sorry you had to go through that. Sounds like a nightmare. I am going to have a closer look at what's going on with our joint account.

OP how are you managing to access Mn without him finding out? It's not too difficult, because he is not a scary, inquisitorial type - although he has asked me who I am writing too. Am currently in the bathroom writing this update!

Wasn't he meant to be transferring over £500 from an account? Yes, he has done this, so the immediate crisis has been averted. Have just been with him to Aldi and got some shopping in. I am going to cook up a load of mince and vegetables tonight and then freeze in DD-sized portions. We had a disagreement because I wanted to buy fusilli (49p) which is more than twice the price of spaghetti (20p). I pointed out that DD is trying to learn how to use cutlery, so spaghetti is not good and he relented. This is the kind of de-moralising crap that I've been putting up with and barely noticing for years, but because of this thread, it made me really angry.

You can hire a ladder for less than £20 from Jewsons Yes, I absolutely should have looked into this and done it. Will contact my Dad and ask him to visit as I am rubbish at DIY.

AnotherEmma, thanks for the advice, which I shall follow up, also the pamphlet. The Rights of Women thing sounds especially helpful. I shall have another opportunity to give Women's Aid a call on Monday, as DH is taking DD to visit his mum.

Thanks, Maudlin, for the clarification re: gaslighting. I'm sorry that you're experiencing similar difficulties with your ex. What you described really resonated me - I also think that, when he makes often blatantly untrue claims, DH absolutely believes what he is saying 100%. Weird, and a bit scary.

I have had this conversation with myself in my head many times. I don't feel frightened of my ex but the fallout of any conversation that could be construed as criticism, or "me thinking I know best" or "me trying to assert my preferences" was so unpleasant that I got into the habit of just shelving everything, and then every now and then coming up with a bump against something like "hang on, it really does matter if the paracetamol are left within toddler reach or not", and so on This is more or less exactly how I feel. Thank you. Flowers

Atenco, yes I do worry about him having care of DD, and have right from the start. Not because he's malicious, but because he's careless. I raised some concerns about this with the HV when DD was about 6 weeks, but she said to stop nit-picking or I'd have a husband who did nothing and I'd be lumbered with all the work. With hindsight, I'm not sure this was great advice.

I'll give some examples of the kinds of things that have made me worry. About a month after we brought DD home from the hospital, I discovered he'd fitted the car seat incorrectly, and a few times since, after he's had to remove it for whatever reason, I've discovered that it's been incorrectly re-installed. I have asked him to get me to check it every time he needs to alter the seats, and he has said he would. But it makes me nervous because often he appears to have agreed to something and then goes on to disregard it. If I challenge him, he denies all knowledge and then suggests I am making a fuss. Another thing: having lost a sibling to cot death, I was very keen that we follow all the guidelines - showed DH a leaflet that explained all these. Later I discovered that, when doing overnights at his mum's, he had left DD in a cot which, instead of having a firm mattress was lined with pillows. Also have found electrical cables hanging by the bed she uses at his mum's. I tell him they must be moved, explain why, and then just pray that he remembers. He's told me (indignantly) that when he takes her out, strangers often come up to him to challenge his parenting (saying stuff like he should keep her closer to him) or give him funny looks. DH thinks that they are women who take issue with fathers being more involved with childcare than they once were. Hmm On one occasion, my mum met him out and about when I was not there. She said it was a freezing day and he was wearing a coat, but DD was in a thin top. He suggested they go for a walk and she said she was worried that DD would get cold, he just brushed it off saying that DD would stay warm by running around. Mum said it was horrible, because she was really concerned for DD but didn't know how to get that across without starting a massive row. I could go on forever - something very similar happened on Mother's Day when they met me from a part time job I had at that time. DH got huffy when I insisted we go to Primark to get DD a cardigan and blanket because it was a freezing cold day (needless to say DH was wearing a coat). When I had bought the stuff, he asked me how much I had spent. £7. Angry

Seeing all this set down in black and white is a bit shocking, actually. It's bad, isn't it? I should have acted before now.

OP posts:
LazyCake · 22/07/2016 16:54

I found the thread I created in May, which was about some of the other stuff that's been going on - undermining my parenting, going behind my back to my family, etc. Here it is.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2644802-Why-does-DH-keep-asking-3yo-DD-to-look-after-Mummy

SandyY2K and ravenmum, you're both on it. Smile

OP posts:
NameChange30 · 22/07/2016 16:56

Yes it is very shocking, I'm sorry OP.
Try not to beat yourself up for not acting until now - the important thing is that you do act now.
I think it's very important that you write down all the examples of neglect that you have listed and share them with your solicitor (if and when you get one) and probably social services as well.
In your position I would be asking whether I could ensure he has supervised contact only (ie in a contact centre).
Flowers

Mrskeats · 22/07/2016 16:59

Yes it is shocking and I know how easily this type of stuff can be to ignore or explain away.
Who argues over 20p in aldi when they got tons of savings or about 7 quid in primark?
As has been said already it's all about controlling you and making you feel guilty and on the back foot.

LazyCake · 22/07/2016 17:05

I am now thinking AnyFucker may have been right when she said I appeared to be drugged up and stupified.

I just re-read the thread I posted in May and there's quite a bit of incriminating stuff there, evidence of a pattern of undermining/threatening behaviour, much of which I had completely forgotten about, e.g.

For example, yesterday when DH got home he was really stressed and upset about what had been going on at work, almost tearful in fact, threatening to resign and so on. We talked it through and I felt such a bitch for moaning on here about such a trivial incident as him once again saying, 'Look after Mummy' in the morning. But then a little voice in my head said, he's acting this way to punish you for challenging him and deter you from speaking up again. (When he left in the morning he had muttered under his breath that if I didn't lighten up 'All of us would go under'.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 22/07/2016 17:19

This man will never be your friend and never co-parent with you.

You need to accept that asap and focus on leaving and minimising his involvement with your DD as he will do all this cr*p on her. Look at how he is treating her now - making her go without the basics of warmth and decent food whilst he wastes thousands on rubbish utility and mortgage deals AngryAngryAngry

HelenaDove · 22/07/2016 17:36

Hes a child abuser!

NameChange30 · 22/07/2016 17:40

Well strictly speaking I think it's child neglect:
www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-abuse-and-neglect/neglect/

But he is certainly abusive towards the OP and has the potential to be abusive to the children if he isn't already Sad

HelenaDove · 22/07/2016 17:50

I think the women coming up to him when hes out and about arent doing it for shit and giggles.

Im guessing theyve seen him out with your DD and seen her too far away from him in a crowded place where you dont know whos about (ppl are unlikely to forget the Jamie Bulger case) and are probably wondering how he could be so careless or theyve seen her too far away from him near a main road and are worried she is going to run into it.

Hes a shit abusive reckless lazy parent who thinks he can get away with it just because he has a penis.

And moaning over buying a cheap cardie for your DD and quibbling over a 20p difference in the price of pasta. Fucking hell.

Did he show any signs of tightwaddery like this when you started dating?

Ive seen threads on here where women have posted about being concerned about the financial attitude of the men they are dating. They get told "You are not living with him so its none of your business"

But it should be taken as a red flag IMO.

In a lot of cases though the abuse starts once the woman is pregnant.

But it doesnt hurt to watch out for signs when dating.

HelenaDove · 22/07/2016 17:51

Agree Emma When i typed that statement i was Angry

RandomMess · 22/07/2016 18:09

You know he doesn't have sex with you because you have served his purpose to produce a child to be his trophy, all he has to do to keep you looking after her for free is abuse you enough to not leave.

Really it's awful, truly awful Sad Sad Sad

MaudlinNamechange · 22/07/2016 18:11

OMG I am nodding like a nodding dog at loads of this

"often he appears to have agreed to something and then goes on to disregard it. If I challenge him, he denies all knowledge and then suggests I am making a fuss" - yep. It's really obvious that instead of engaging with the content of what you are saying, it is clear in his own head that you just need to be dealt with while you are talking, and there is no way that you could actually have anything valuable to say that needs to be taken in

"He's told me (indignantly) that when he takes her out, strangers often come up to him to challenge his parenting (saying stuff like he should keep her closer to him) or give him funny looks. DH thinks that they are women who take issue with fathers being more involved with childcare than they once were."

Right, if someone has something to say then it shows clearly, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that there is something wrong with them.

MaudlinNamechange · 22/07/2016 18:16

Ugh I can't believe I was so lily-livered about dcs being blatantly underdressed on sunny, cold March days.... I am ashamed. Sorry. this thread is not about me

  • BUT! - this

"DH thinks that they are women who take issue with fathers being more involved with childcare than they once were."

I get so enraged with this attitude that dads have to "encouraged" and "welcomed" when what that means in practice is "given endless cookies for doing a shit job"

LazyCake · 22/07/2016 19:50

You need to [...] focus on leaving and minimising his involvement with your DD as he will do all this crp on her.* Yes, it's become very clear to me that this marriage is not salvageable, but I still believe that DH should have a large part in DD's life. In many ways, he is a good father - takes her on fun days out and holidays, bathes her almost every night and reads to her daily. He's not negligent in every respect, e.g. he's taken a lot of care of her teeth, meaning that they're very healthy while some of her classmates already have lots of decay. The problem is, he'll only do what HE thinks is important - it's a massive struggle to get him to listen to what I think is right for her.

I think the women coming up to him when hes out and about arent doing it for shit and giggles. I tentatively put this to him once - that these people were probably acutely embarrassed but nonetheless felt that they had to say something, and that perhaps, if so many people had said similar things, it might be worth reviewing his parenting and considering if there were things he could change. He absolutely rejected this.

Did he show any signs of tightwaddery like this when you started dating? No, didn't appear at all tight - was always generous infact, as long as HE was in charge of the giving. An example of this: every Christmas we have a disagreement because he wants to buy my family very expensive gifts. In the past, we've limited Christmas spending to about £15-ish per person because my Mum's income is not massive and she has said she'd rather not receive really expensive stuff because she can't reciprocate, brother and sister are on relatively good money, but saving for deposits, etc, so happy with this arrangement. However, DH will not cooperate with this - he says it's not for them to determine what gifts they receive, that's not the point of giving. So he goes out and spends a fortune on gifts that often make the recipient feel a bit awkward.

In a lot of cases though the abuse starts once the woman is pregnant. DH got a bit more shouty and stuck in his ways when I was pregnant, smashed a few things which was a bit of a shock, but nothing major.

Ugh I can't believe I was so lily-livered about dcs being blatantly underdressed on sunny, cold March days.... I am ashamed. You've addressed it now though, so don't beat yourself up too much, Maudlin. FWIW, I'm not feeling very proud of myself right now either.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 22/07/2016 20:12

I know he is a good father at the moment in some ways, however once your DD starts to assert herself more he really won't like it - I'm sorry to sound doom & gloom but it's a regular pattern Sad

RandomMess · 22/07/2016 20:15

Have you looked into the possibility of him having Narcissistic tendencies at all?

Can't believe you are struggling financially yet he is insisting on spending ££££ on gifts the recipients do not want because they are just too expensive - it is completely screwy head f8ckery behaviour...

Dozer · 22/07/2016 20:24

Smashing things IS a big deal.
He is abusive.

HelenaDove · 22/07/2016 20:24

Smashing things is major It shows he has a temper.

Sendmylove · 22/07/2016 20:41

I am worried for the safety of your daughter. You can't go another day without window locks as you can't trust him. It would take seconds for your dd to climb and fall.

His lack of care/neglect must be off the scale if strangers are approaching him to call him on it. And he still thinks he is right!

I saw a man with two small children the other day at a local park, wandering around blase, with no awareness of his children standing by the lake looking at the ducks. I could see what was going to happen in slow motion as could other parents who ran into action when the little girl fell in. He was oblivious. I can imagine he is just like your dh.

Kr1stina · 22/07/2016 21:01

The window locks is a control thing. The Op has to be around all the time just in case he " forgets " to close the windows .

He's very clever . He doesn't need to say " don't leave this house or I'll hit you ".

LazyCake · 22/07/2016 21:09

You can't go another day without window locks as you can't trust him. It would take seconds for your dd to climb and fall. No, I need to get the windows sorted out urgently. But what bothers me is, life is full of hazards, right? I don't know where to draw the line, other than taking DD away and permitting only supervised contact (which a judge would probably disallow in any case). Because I think that would do her a great injury too - she really does need her Dad. But it feels like I'm making some kind of trade off, or gambling with her safety and that's just so troubling.

Smashing things is major It shows he has a temper. Yes, we both have a temper, but neither of us show it often. More usually he's sulky passive aggressive, I'm morose/apathetic.

He told me that he hit his ex, which would have been a red line for me, except I was already pregnant. Apparently, she hit him first and he responded. Neither of them seem particularly bothered about it, as they are still friends. When I attacked him, he raised his fist to me and I thought it was pretty clear that he'd hit me if I carried on. So I am aware that violence is not an absolute taboo for him, but I do not actually fear him in that way. (Clearly, given my behaviour, violence is not an absolute taboo for me either. Very ashamed of that).

Have you looked into the possibility of him having Narcissistic tendencies at all? Yes, many times.

I know he is a good father at the moment in some ways, however once your DD starts to assert herself more he really won't like it - I'm sorry to sound doom & gloom but it's a regular pattern Yes, this has occurred to me before. There's something about his relationship with her which is odd - it's very, very subtle and I am struggling to describe it. It's as though she exists for him as an extension of his personality, IYSWIM? His own father was like this with him - when DH was into his thirties, his Dad would still be doing odd things like suddenly bursting in on him at work and demanding to go to lunch when he was engaged in meetings, or finding out DH's annual leave dates and booking him to assist with his own work projects before checking that, 1. he was available, and 2. that he wanted to do it.

DH's family background was quite odd, and I think is the origin of many of our difficulties. This makes me feel sorry for him, but it also makes me think that I can't allow the cycle to continue.

OP posts:
LazyCake · 22/07/2016 21:19

The window locks is a control thing. The Op has to be around all the time just in case he " forgets " to close the windows .

He's very clever . He doesn't need to say " don't leave this house or I'll hit you ".

Yes, except I do leave the house, go out to see friends, go for a run, that kind of thing. So in a sense I have colluded in these risky practices and low standard of care. Truth is, I have struggled massively to adjust to being mother, and to get to grips with what is required. I could have told DH he wasn't up to scratch way back when she was a baby, but I did not believe that I could cope alone (didn't believe I could cope as part of a couple for that matter...) The idea of being a single parent absolutely terrifies me. So there are questions of my own self-interest in this - if I am brutally honest I have probably let a lot of stuff go because I was so keen to hang on to the relationship.

OP posts:
MaudlinNamechange · 22/07/2016 21:46

Gosh you are honest, I'm impressed. You are really taking big steps here.

It is only when you are serious about leaving that you admit things like this to yourself.

Flowers
AnyFucker · 22/07/2016 21:57

Yes, I agree that you have prioritised your relationship with this man over

  1. your own self

  2. the safety of your daughter

You can stop any time you like. If you want to.

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