Can't afford Relate but MIL is offering to pay - WWYD?

[LazyCake]

DH and I have been having lots of problems, for a very long time. We recently started to receive counselling from Relate, but are really, really struggling to pay for the sessions, which take place every week and cost £65. The counselling has been helpful to a degree, it makes me feel calmer as I am no longer dealing with all the problems and worrying about the future on my own. DH says that he enjoys it (a bit odd, but good I suppose?!)

Anyway, our finances are in chaos, and any discussion of how things might be improved leads to long arguments that go nowhere. This has been going on for years, but has got worse recently. Today I am trying to work out how to feed DD until payday, which is ridiculous as DH is on a good salary. So the added drain on our finances caused by Relate's £65 a week fees is not helping matters.

I suggested to DH that we stop receiving counselling, simply because we cannot afford it. He agreed initially, but then said that he had discussed it with his Mum, who had offered to meet the cost of 10 sessions as a birthday present. There are lots of reasons why I think this is not a good idea - to begin with, it's just a miserable, depressing thing to receive for your birthday, isn't it? And then there's the fact that I think that the eventual outcome of the counselling will be separation. MIL certainly does not realise this - she things we are just having 'a few problems'. She is very traditional, strict Christian upbringing, etc, and this will come as a dreadful blow to her. Also, I don't want DH acting the martyr over the fact he has received such a present - I feel guilty enough.

But if I don't accept MIL's offer to pay, am I throwing away the chance to try to work on our marriage and make thing better for DD? H will certainly reproach me with this for years to come, especially if we do end up separating, and maybe he would be right to do so?

Have you brought up the financial disparity at Relate? No, I haven't. I thought quite carefully about how to approach counselling. There are various points of difficulty in the marriage - principally money and the division of domestic labour. However, for me, the most distressing aspect was/is the complete absence of sex or romantic connection. I felt that the other issues were peripheral, and could be worked upon if this core issue of sexual and romantic intimacy had been resolved one way or another (I am re-assessing that now, in light of this thread). I didn't want to get side-tracked, so deliberately put the financial stuff on the back burner - obviously running out of money for sessions has now brought it to the fore.

I'm now thinking about how best to use my next session with Relate, which'll be a one-to-one, next Thursday. DH has got his one-to-one tonight. I am assuming we'll be continuing with counselling for the time being because DH has suddenly 'discovered' another stash of money.

Whilst I think you getting a job is a good idea, I think seperating while you are the primary carer is better for you custody wise. Yes, I think you're right, Sandy.

He is scared and threatened by your confidence and probably thinks you can easily leave and be with a better younger man. But yet his controlling behaviour is driving you away. Yes, hence the guilt and regret that I'm putting him through this. He's so anxious about being left alone - he's an only child and, when his mum goes, he'll have no close family left. He lacks confidence about his physical attractiveness, partly due to a health condition he developed in early adulthood which altered his appearance. I think that right now he's very worried about what the holds, which is why he is reacting so badly to any talk of a separation.

Why does he view divorce as loosing DD if you have 50/50 custody? I think he's looking ahead and forseeing a time when he is supplanted by a stepfather. At the moment, I can think of nothing I'd like less than shacking up with another bloke. I think I'll be very chary of giving away my independence in future, if I ever do manage to get clear of this marriage. However, as DH rightly points out, I can't give him a cast-iron guarantee that DD will not be raised in a step-family, as I do not know what the future holds.

Has he ever suffered from depression? He's never been treated for depression, but has certainly had difficult times in his life and knows what it is like to feel very low.

Nothing wrong with being raised in a loving step family - especially where mum is treated with respect and consideration as an equal partner to the marriage. You deserve to be treated as an equal.

Can you actually determine whether you are running out of money each month? As in every penny is being spent. Or is some being siphoned off into his savings? Can you see and add up in comings and outgoings? It is so bizarre that he wastes money on gym, etc usually greedy men are careful about not spending unnecessarily.

You need to be explicit at relate next week - relate should refuse joint counselling if he is being abusive btw. Financial abuse is a criminal offence as is emotional abuse etc. it's really important to get the abuse documented for future contact arrangements.

Can you afford an hour with a SHL?- you need to go with your gut on the lawyer, go for someone with tenacity, not a damp squib! Find out where you stand legally both financially and with your child - knowledge is power! You don't have to act until you are ready.

Can you actually determine whether you are running out of money each month? As in every penny is being spent. Or is some being siphoned off into his savings? Can you see and add up in comings and outgoings? It is so bizarre that he wastes money on gym, etc usually greedy men are careful about not spending unnecessarily. Yes, I think we are actually running out of money every month. I'm pretty sure that DH's whole income is going into our joint account and only £100 is going out in savings. But something odd is going on as our outgoings have drastically decreased since DD turned 3 and became eligible for 15 hrs free early years provision, plus for the last 6 months DH has actually been on 70k as he's been acting up at work (he's back to 65k now though). I shall go through our statements and have a close look at what's going where.

Gym membership is not £££, because it's subsidised by work, but it is a total waste as he hasn't been for about 6 months. He's casual/wasteful about lots of things - one of my frustrations is that we pay massively over the odds for mortgage, utilities, etc and I'm powerless to stop this. I don't think he's a typically greedy/financially abusive man - but clearly there's lots going on which isn't right and needs to stop.

Can you afford an hour with a SHL? A few months ago, I called around some local family lawyers to see what the score was re: an initial consultation. Most of them do 30 minutes free, but it seems the advice they would offer in that time would be very general, e.g. what is a divorce, how it typically proceeds, options for mediation, etc. But one of the firms I contacted did an hour with the senior partner (who has years of experience doing divorce), followed up with a written summary of the advice given, focused on how the law would apply in the client's specific circumstances. It's £250, so pretty expensive but I think probably worth it. I spoke to the junior solicitor on the phone and she sounded down-to-earth and approachable.

As an aside, are lawyers much cheaper outside of London? I wondered about getting one who is based near where my Mum and Dad live, as I imagine most stuff can be done by phone and email once an initial meeting has taken place?

Hes paying over the odds for mortgage etc because it has the added bonus of keeping you short of money.

This IS a financially abusive man Lazycake.

When my brother died some years ago I used 'his' solicitor, who was in Central London. A Senior Partner handled my brother's estate (such as it was!), and charged 260 an hour. This was about 5 years ago. So I think 250 an hour is not a bad price. I'm sure that lawyers are cheaper outside London, though not necessarily everywhere.

You are being financially abused, (and emotionally) so why not give Women's Aid a ring, and have a chat with them. You'll at least have some rl support, that way. They are experts, and can give you invaluable advice on how to leave him safely.

I also think you will find it helpful to go to CAB and find out what and how much you would be entitled to in terms of benefits, CMS, and so on. Also what help you could get from the Council.

It would be worthwhile going on the Freedom Programme too. I think your boundaries are weakened from years with this man, and your idea of normality may be skewed. FP will help sort all that out, and you would be in a group with others. Solidarity is a wonderful thing.

Being tight about money isn't about money . It's about control .

If he really cared about saving money , he woudl do all the sensible things y suggest, like getting the best mortgage deal and cancelling the gym membership he doesn't use . But he doesn't really care about them , he cares about controlling you.

It's not about the £20 a month you spent on slimming world. It's about you going out without him, spending time looking after your health, meeting other people , having fun, improving your confidence . He HATES that .

Same as you getting your nails done . It's not the cost , it's about you looking good and feeling better after being ill. He prefers when you are sick and more dependent on him.

Same as all the veiled threats about DD. It's not that he loves her so much - clearly he doesn't or he wouldn't treat her mother so badly . His objective is to paralyse you with fear so that you won't dare think of leaving him.

I think you are right that he will try to take her away from you if you leave. I suspect he will also do things like contact your family to try to get you back or threaten to kill himself . The threat of quitting his job ( so you get no maintenance for DD and he can be a Ft parent ) is an early sign of that .

I think likes the image and status or fatherhood but not any of the inconvenience or work . He thinks of DD as a possession not a person - if you take her you are stealing his property and he will punish you.

I also fear that he will try to get DD by claiming that you are an inadequate mother and pointing out that you have had Mental health problems . Like some PP, I suspect that the symptoms you had were actually the effects that his behaviour had upon you and you will be quite well when you are away from him .

So I think that if you are going to leave, you need to plan things very carefully and act on the best advice of Women's aid and your solicitor and with the support of your family . You need to assume that your H will use every dirty trick In the book .

But something odd is going on as our outgoings have drastically decreased since DD turned 3 and became eligible for 15 hrs free early years provision, plus for the last 6 months DH has actually been on 70k as he's been acting up at work (he's back to 65k now though). I shall go through our statements and have a close look at what's going where.

He's siphoning off money into hidden accounts.

Leave the bastard, asap. and tell the counsellor about the financial abuse and controlling behaviour.

Memoires, I tried to give Women's Aid a call this morning, but the number didn't appear to be working, so I emailed them instead. Apparently a reply might take as long as 5 days.

Thanks for the suggestions re: CAB, Freedom Programme and a lawyer.

Kr1stina, a lot of what you've said is ringing true. But I am still hoping that it may be possible to salvage from our marriage a friendship based on co-parenting our daughter. However, I think you are correct that I need to prepare for the worst, even if I continue to hope for the best.

BTW, I'd like to ask about gaslighting. The following situation occurred this morning and I made a note of it, as it's quite typical of how things go with us. I was in the bathroom washing my face, when DH came upstairs and asked me to leave so he could use the toilet. I finished what I was doing, left the bathroom, and popped my head down the stairs to make sure DD was ok and saw that the living room window had been left open. It's not been possible to fit safety catches, which means there's a risk that DD could fall out (we're on the first floor), so I have asked DH to make sure it's closed whenever he leaves her unattended. So I reminded him, 'Please can you make sure the lounge window is closed when you come upstairs because DD might lean out and fall?'. His response was, 'Yes, I know. That's why I asked you to go downstairs and supervise her.' But he HADN'T asked - I'd have remembered because it was just moments before. I said, 'You didn't ask.' and he replied, 'Oh, I thought I did.' Things like this happen all the time, probably at least a couple of times a week. Basically, he cannot be in the wrong: this would be against the physical laws of the universe he lives in. Everything starts from the premise that he is correct. This is gaslighting, right?

Yes, that's gaslighting. It's impossible to live with someone who does that.

Yes it's gas lighting . He's more concerned about being right ( and you being wrong ) than he is about your DDs safety .

Can I ask why it's impossible to fit safety catches ? They make them for most types of Windows

Also most people wait until one person is fninshed in the bathroom , they don't ask them to leave . It implies that his needs take priority over yours

Have a look Lundy Bancroft "types".

Can I ask why it's impossible to fit safety catches ? I bought some, and my Dad came to fit them, but halfway through the job, he realised that it'd be necessary to get access from the outside, meaning a ladder would be required. Unfortunately neither he nor I have a ladder, so we would have needed to either hire one and get it delivered, or hire a workman to come and finish the job with his equipment. I guessed that either of these would probably cost, £70-£100. I decided to make sure the windows were always left closed when DD was left in the room alone, while I got the money together to finish the job. I've asked DH and any one else caring for her to be careful of this.

I think I have been at fault because, really and truly, I know that DH is not careful about closing the window, because several times I have discovered it open when she is in the room alone. However, I have ducked and delayed asking him for the money to install the locks because I've got to the point of wanting to avoid these kinds of conversations at all costs. The window locks have gone on a long list of repairs that need to be made to the house, which is wrong really because, as a safety issue, they should have been a priority.

I'm feeling pretty angry this morning because I have had to have an argument with DH about buying DD a sandwich for lunch (they were heading out to the local shop to get some bin liners, he's now on annual leave to coincide with DD's holidays). There is almost no food in the house (have totally run out of milk, cheese, meat, fruit and vegetables), because he has not been to the supermarket for about two weeks, and since the food ran out DD and I have been going from day-to-day getting bits and pieces at our local Tesco Express. He says he'll go to the supermarket later today, but until then he 'doesn't want to get into spending money at Tesco', saying that there's lots of pasta and chopped tomatoes in the cupboard, and DD can have last night's dinner leftovers for lunch - yep, pasta and chopped tomatoes again. I pointed out to him that I was intending that we eat that - I haven't had breakfast and would like to eat before this evening, fgs!

Sorry - am just ranting and raving now. Really need to get a grip on this food thing as it's totally letting DD down. He'd better have got her something for lunch when he gets back in a minute.

Oh, ps. thanks, Dozer. I'll look up the Lundy Bancroft stuff.

Jesus Fucking Christ. This man is TEXTBOOK abusive. He is also a financial disaster waiting to happen.

Keep trying to call Women's Aid. I think they were having issues with the helpline (because of BT) but it's resolved now.

I suggest that you also call the free Rights of Women family law helpline. That will be a really good starting point for legal advice.

Given that he is abusive you might be entitled to legal aid or low cost legal help from a DV solicitor. Women's Aid, Rights of Women and Citizens Advice can all advise on that.

I think you need to focus on the practical side of separation but if you are struggling to get your head around things, definitely read "Why does he do that?" by Lundy Bancroft.

So, if your dd fell out of the window how would you feel about the state of your relationship being so bad that you felt too frightened to insist on having window locks fitted

It is that bad. He puts her life at risk and you dare not do the obvious thing and simply phone a workman and get it done

You might find this useful, OP:
You can afford to leave (PDF)

Please please get away from this. He is a dangerous man. To you and your daughter.

I think the gaslighting bit is insisting something happened that you know didn't (that he asked you to supervise dc) rather than that it is against the physical laws of the universe that he can be wrong, or make a mistake (which is something different which may have a name too as I think it is pretty common! I don't know the name though)

they often go together in exactly this way - my ex will insist that he has said or done things that he hasn't (and I think believes it) - because it has become clear that he was wrong and he cannot comprehend that such a thing could happen. Sometimes the things he said were actually on email, which helps me psychologically, because even though I would never actually forward the email and say "but you said we should do it this way! On the 12 December 2015!" - it helps me to understand that I am not going mad.

(the reason why I would never forward the email is because that in itself - the production of evidence - would also count as proof that I am nuts, because "who does that?" and "listen to yourself!" and "you are really losing it now" etc etc etc)

I think you should start keeping a record of things like that, he is appalling and I would worry about him having your dd for 50% of the time. Just in your last post alone it is apparent that he is uninterested in her basic safety and is happy to let her starve or become malnourished

You can hire a ladder for less than £20 from Jewsons

www.jewson.co.uk/tool-hire/access-equipment/ladders/products/0002/double-ladder-alloy-343m-62m/

You have a car and you said you are now on the insurance .

I don't understand why he's going on holiday to Greece but can't afford to buy food and do basic safety repairs to the house .

OP, he has 24K to put window locks on & buy food!!! FFS!!

Wasn't he meant to be transferring over £500 from an account?

Agree with others that you should keep a note of everything, screenshots of texts, emails etc.

OP how are you managing to access Mn without him finding out?

Op I'm really scared for you
You are putting your daughter in danger when there's loads of money for a workman
You are prepared to see her inadequately fed. Please just wait till he is out take your daughter and leave. Go to your family

My first marriage ended because there was "never any money" despite my husband earning a good wage - it turned out he was addicted to gambling and had completely hidden this from me for several years. I look back now and can't believe I didn't see it but was just young & trusting (and gullible?)

He was generally a good man but I couldn't get over the deceit and the fact that I had to bail him out to the tune of almost £10k. Perhaps worth looking at whether this is an issue with your DH?

I only found out by accident when my DS (age 1 at the time) was obsessed with the postman & post (!) and tore open his bank statement and I saw large amounts of money coming out for several loan repayments that i wasn't aware of, and large amounts of cash being withdrawn.

Hope you get sorted - agree that accepting the 'gift' of the counselling sessions from your MIL would cause a lot of trouble in the long run.

"if your dd fell out of the window how would you feel about the state of your relationship being so bad that you felt too frightened to insist on having window locks fitted"

I have had this conversation with myself in my head many times. I don't feel frightened of my ex but the fallout of any conversation that could be construed as criticism, or "me thinking I know best" or "me trying to assert my preferences" was so unpleasant that I got into the habit of just shelving everything, and then every now and then coming up with a bump against something like "hang on, it really does matter if the paracetamol are left within toddler reach or not", and so on.

When you are inhibited about having this sort of conversation it puts you on a twitchy red alert state of having to try and physically manage all of these things yourself - if you have a partner who reacts badly to being asked to do things, you can't call out "could you just do x, please, while I finish y?" and so you are always dashing about doing x yourself (for safety reasons) while y sits unfinished (going cold or congealing or whatever). I can't wait not to have to share my house with someone who can't be communicated with on basic matters of practicality and safety. It's exhausting.

OP, for you. you sound like a really wise, thoughtful, interesting, kind and clever person. I am so glad you are getting ready to start a new life.