I'm starting to hate men

[Mamaka]

I've noticed recently that I've become more and more anti men - I think since having my first child. So many factors that I could mention and probably many deep rooted issues contributing to this but the long and short of it is why do women have to suffer and sacrifice at every turn?!

I don't really want to feel like this. I have a son who I want to bring up/am bringing up to be a feminist but I'm worried about how my hateful feelings towards men are going to rub off on my dc.

I suppose I am asking if there is a way I can combat these feelings and start to feel more positively towards them.

I found hanging out with girls more was a lot less fraught than kicking tennis balls around on the playground and getting into scuffles. And I think doing so has the benefit that they become respected friends rather than something other.

I think there's something in this as well. Presumably for that reason you wouldn't want your daughter to be educated in an all-girls school? Some people think that girls benefit from being educated completely separately from boys don't they? Although some of the reasons given for that seem to fall along gender lines. For example, that girls tend to be more attracted to co-operative learning and are quieter in a classroom and easily edged out of things by more competitive, more vocal boys. But are girls naturally more cooperative and quieter than boys or do they learn to be and if it's not an inherent difference what's keeping boys and girls apart teaching them?

In my experience, I find that large groups of boys get along with each other better than large groups of girls.

But I don't think it is a good idea for them to be segregated. As much as it might present some challenges sometimes, I think the general differences between men and women is necessary for synergy in a society.

voyage

I have reread the relevant part of that thread and i can't see where the poster was taking the piss

"Once you place too much stress on socialisation you find you've left no room for female violence. "

Not true at all. No one is claiming that male socialisation (from "man up", "don't be a girl" to glorification and excusing of violence) is the ONLY factor but a significant one amongst many others. Here is a list of potential factors:

Childhood experience / trauma
Attitudes to violence from those around you: peers / family / friendship group
Mental Health issues
Poverty
Education
Male socialisation (from "don't be a girl and man up" to the "coolification" of violence.)
Testosterone
The media (even our benevolent heros on screen need to prove themselves to be adept at violence)
Religion (its application /interpretation )
Other dogmatic ideologies
Our own individual personalities and genetic makeup.

So this makes it perfectly clear why there is some female violence but why it is not as common as male violence; some factors affect us all. Some affect males mostly.

It's also worth considering that if you have a society that places "masculine" values (strength, aggression, dominance) on a pedastal and sees them as "cooler" and somehow more worthy and rewarding than the so-called "feminine" virtues of empathy, nurturing and cooperation then it is not inconceivable that many girls and women will want to emulate those masculine values too.

Yes, I agree. I think we're saying the same thing. Socialisation is a factor but you can't focus on it to the exclusion of lots of other factors.

It's an interesting point about girls and women adopting those values which are seen as valued by society. Culturally you kind of saw this in the media talk of the 'ladette' that happened in the nineties (?). A sort of celebration of the idea that young women can now behave like young men. They can go out, get drunk have casual sex etc.

Also I should say that I really like the word 'coolification'

On the 'Safe place for budding feminists' thread the poster Buffythereasonablefeminist has posted the following-

My instinct, backed up by research (but mostly in the US with college students, so not general) is that a tiny number of men, about 10% I think, are outright sexual predators.

Although Buffy has described it as a tiny number I find the idea that 1 in ten men are 'outright sexual predators' alarmingly high (although I suppose you would need to understand what constitutes a sexual predator exactly). Does anyone know what research is being referred to or of any similar research?

I don't think it is even possible to know precisely what proportion of men and women are sexually predators.

But people love statistics.

I'm sure you're quite right Dilberry. What's you're gut reaction to the idea that 1 in 10 men are a sexual threat to women?

I'm going to spend some time digging round and seeing what research is out there.

I honestly have no idea how many men are predatory. One in ten sounds incredibly high though. As well as totally unprovable as a statistic.

What comprises predatory behaviour is a matter that is up for discussion.

I've seen it said that even trying to talk to women you don't know is unacceptably abusive behaviour. This was said by the staunchest feminist I know (who is a man, if that is of interest).

I think at some point, trying to label every gesture irrespective of intention abusive is absurd, but I suppose some people love the comfort of a binary moral code.

Personally, I feel that it is more of a mindset than an action, necessarily. And you can never know what lies in someone's heart. Who amongst us humans says the right things but feels inside disturbing things, but never has the opportunity to live them?

Aside from anything else being sent flowers everyday for a month would be really inconvenient. Who has that many vases? It's a romance novel/film trope though isn't it? The grand gesture. It shouldn't have much of a place in the real world. You can't buy someone's time or attention.

Isn't the key thing being respectful towards the other persons wishes? Maybe the object of your affects loves flowers but if they ask you to stop after three days for whatever reason then you stop. It's when you ignore and carry on that your behaviour becomes more clearly inappropriate.

Equally I can't get on board with the idea of approaching a woman you don't know as being abusive in and of itself, but if she makes it clear that she doesn't want company then the moment you persist you've crossed the line.

However, I would also say that I never have and never would approach a woman I didn't know in a bar, and I do think that as a man you should always try and be aware of how your behaviour might be coming across. These days I wouldn't be approaching a woman I didn't know with any romantic intent but how does she know that?

In my opinion, sending flowers every day when they have not said that they want them is harassment. But that is a pretty extreme example. It's quite easy to accidentally pursue someone that isn't into you in these times of abundant communication. Who hasn't sent a drunken hopeful text to someone? I know I have

I genuinely don't mind being spoken to by strangers. How else are you going to get to know someone? But I have had female friends jump in to 'rescue' me when I really couldn't give a stuff. It's well meant from both sides though, I guess.

Like most of human interaction, it's a perilous minefield!

I'm reading this thread on a train. A man just came up to me and my ten year old dd and said: "it's so hot I feel like a rapist!" And walked on.

Depressing.

I'm reading this thread on a train. A man just came up to me and my ten year old dd and said: "it's so hot I feel like a rapist!" And walked on.

Moron

I agree Dilberry. Sending flowers everyday for a prolonged period like some kind of aggressive flowery bombardment seems like harassment to me. But, the now, Mrs Sorrell presumably liked it!

I remember there being a thread on here some time back about a woman having a man turn up at her front door with some flowers and a suggestion that perhaps they could meet up sometime. The woman had felt most uncomfortable that a man she didn't know had found out where she lived (it was a small village), and had felt intimidated about being put on the spot. There were quite a lot of respondents who felt the same.

Now I don't think it escalated into a more sinister situation (though I might be misrembering it). I think it was just a bit of a clumsy approach, a bit embarrassing all round. He'd made what he maybe thought was a charming romantic approach without thinking that if you're a woman living on your own a strange man (actually not a complete stranger, I think they'd had some brief contact through work or something) turning up where you live might feel really quite threatening. Like you say, a minefield.