I'm starting to hate men

[Mamaka]

I've noticed recently that I've become more and more anti men - I think since having my first child. So many factors that I could mention and probably many deep rooted issues contributing to this but the long and short of it is why do women have to suffer and sacrifice at every turn?!

I don't really want to feel like this. I have a son who I want to bring up/am bringing up to be a feminist but I'm worried about how my hateful feelings towards men are going to rub off on my dc.

I suppose I am asking if there is a way I can combat these feelings and start to feel more positively towards them.

I don't see why you can't acknowledge the idea of misandry. To me it seems that it would be wrong to it is equivalent to misogyny, but wrong to say it doesn't exist.

I worked in pubs a lot in my teenage years serving drinks and food. I was repeatedly touched inappropriately. When I was a young teenager, and small for my age, I was held down and sexually assaulted by three older girls. Like you say, it's not as prevalent, but it goes on.

I was once sexually assaulted by a woman at a party. Really unpleasant experience.

I'm sure it was Dilberry Did you report it?

I didn't. I was just so surprised. I actually apologised to her, if you can believe it.

How about you?

During my student years I had my fair share of pub jobs and summer office jobs (i.e. general dogsbody), for the former getting groin felt and arse grabbed was fairly common on a busy weekend night, as for the latter there were a few incidents where some of the, dare I say, middle aged women who seemed to take particular delight in making me feel awkward (to the amusement of the rest of the all female team) by loudly chatting about my 'package' or discussing within earshot of me what she would like to do with me.

Dilberry
God no! I was fourteen. I didn't really even get what had happened. They laughed as they did it and because I got an erection they told me that I was enjoying it. Quite confusing when you're fourteen. I did tell a friend who thought it sounded "amazing". It was not amazing.

Voyage
I'm not sure I understand enough about feminism to offer much of an opinion. It's easy to think of feminism as some sort of homogenous block of opinion when it's more like an ongoing debate with all sorts of competing ideas and opinions. I'm aware that female on male violence when first reported upon in the 1970's was very much treated with suspicion and was considered by some to be part of a male plot to discredit feminism. In fact it may well have been used that way by some men. I think that view has largely fallen away though under the weight of increasing evidence.

I also understand that socialisation has been a big factor in feminism and feminism has done a lot of excellent work on that front. It's feminism that has me agonising over whether I need to make sure my nieces are allowed toy guns or whether I shouldn't be encouraging my nephew to wear pink if he wants. We're all much more aware of these things than previous generations aren't we?

One of the really awful things is that, as a woman, mine will be taken more seriously as a violation.

I wonder if another factor in violent relationships is the power dynamic of a relationship? You go back 30 odd years or so and your're in a time where women don't earn very little if they work at all. Economically they're in a weak position. Culturally divorce is much more stigmatised and there's much more pressure to stay in a marriage that is abusive, so again, women are in a very vulnerable position.

Over the last thirty years feminism enables women to start to become more independent. Wages, although behind men do increase and also divorce loses it's stigma.

In 2016 it's much more likely than it ever was that a woman is the main earner or certainly makes a much bigger contribution. Does this start to change the power dynamics of relationships?

And I agree with you Voyage on the socialisation thing. Once you place too much stress on socialisation you find you've left no room for female violence. There's no acknowledgement of it because women are meant to be socialised to be all meek and subservient whilst the men are all powerful.

There are lots of historical examples of abusive women. I think it is just something that men feel that they can't admit to. Of course, there is value in the argument of the detrimental effect of the admiration of masculinity.

I think abusive women have always happened and they find it easier to get away with, ironically.

And the assumption that women are pure and untarnished creatures. It all makes it so much easier for them to act badly. As this thread shows.

Do you have kids Dilberry?

I have a small son.

How about you?

None of my own no. Just nephews and nieces that I dote on.

Do you have a clear idea or strategy for raising him to have an awareness of gender inequality? Do you put a lot of energy into fighting against standard gender socialisation?

Actually, I do try to fight for equality for him. Two things I find is 1. He's a very gentle boy. And I find that he struggles to fit in with the very boyish rough boys and 2. That other women are already calling a 'typical man'. Which is horrible.

I spend a lot of time with my eldest nephew and I think he was five or six when he said to me that pink was for girls. So you challenge it and you say that colours aren't male or female and that historically you don't have to go back many years to find a time when pink was actually associated with boys and blue with girls. He wrinkles his nose and looks doubtfully at me. Then, of course, he watches tv and all the adverts are very strictly gendered and he's told again and again that pink is for girls and you become aware of the sheer weight that you're fighting against. That's the power of socialisation I guess. What else can you do though?

I was maybe not too different to your son. I was small, quiet and rather sensitive so it was harder to fit in with 'rougher' boys. I found my own way though and gravitated towards male figures who were equally outside of the mainstream. I guess, to an extant, you have to trust that your son can find his own way too.

I do try. He's always loved pink. Until he goes to school and suddenly he's telling me that pink is for girls.

He's very imaginative. And he's so caring and sweet. But for me, I was very aggressive as a child, so I try to advocate this in him too when he says that other children have been rough with him. But maybe it is better in the long run that he is true to himself.

Really glad we can have this conversation BTW.

It must be a hell of a balancing act. From a feminist perspective you want to encourage and value things like sensitivity, gentleness and caring because these are all things that boys should be embracing. At the same time, though, they have to get by out there in the real world and, quite naturally, you always want your kids to be happy and to fit in and be popular. I'm sure there's a middle ground in there somewhere where boys can be raised to be caring and sensitive but also assertive. Tricky though.