11yo DS emotionally abusing me

[jayho]

He's following the script, I don't know what to do to stop him.

For background I split from his extremely EA father nearly six years ago. Ex assaulted DS in February and they have had no contact since. It was just the two of them in the room so one person's word against the other. I was offered the option to prosecute but opted for SS support in the interests of them maintaining a relationship. Ex maintains DS is lying and that he will not see him as he feels 'vulnerable to false accusations'.

DS does not know this, he says he doesn't want to see his father and that's that.

To be frank, DS is hard work. He's anxious and demanding, very oppositional and negative and can be aggressive. I have a strong sense that ex has grasped at a 'get out of jail' card. I know he and his new partner have struggled with DS's behaviour and now he doesn't have to anymore.

So the best interpretation I can put on the situation at home at the moment is that various authorities listening to DS seems to have given him a sense of entitlement. Since he stopped seeing his father he has become more and more controlling of me. I don't know if it's through anxiety or what but it is driving me mad.

We have a number of on-going flashpoints. One is bedtime. So I take younger DS to bed first, we have a story and a cuddle then I go in to 11yo. Elder has taken to repeatedly bursting into younger DS's room demanding to know when I will come in to him. I have explained to him a thousand times that if he keeps doing this I will be longer. He always acknowledges that I'm right but then does exactly the same thing the next night.

So last night before I took younger boy up I carefully and deliberately said to 11yo 'I'm taking boy to bed, please go up at 9, have a wee, brush your teeth, go in to your bed and I will come him when he's settled. Please do not come in to boy's room, I will come to you when he's settled. Do you understand?' and asked him to repeat it back to me to make sure he was clear.

30 mins later he bursts in to the room. He does it four more times. Eventually 7yo says 'don't worry mummy, I'll go to sleep on my own to stop him shouting'.

Finally got them both settled at 10.30 pm and I'm exhausted.

This morning 11yo absolutely denied that it happened. He came in once, he didn't shout. I was asleep and dreamt my version of events. He's adamant.

What can I do? Can anyone propose a strategy for dealing with this? I feel like I'm going mad and being bullied by a child in my own home. It's awful

Oops, posted too late re PDA, sorry!

One thing that struck me about the diatribe about the present was how adult it sounded. Has he heard this sort of thing directed at you in the past and is echoing it?
I have a stroppy hormonal 12 year boy old who is bigger than me. Some of what you are talking about sounds like normal behaviour for his age. They can be sweet and childlike but you say something that you think is neutral and suddenly the huffing and puffing and eye rolling begins followed by some huge moan about how unreasonable you are.
You are left thinking "but I only said..."

You don't need to overlay too much additional anxiety and stress from the troubled relationship with his dad on top of the brewing hormones before you have very tense situation.

Is he going to secondary school in Sept? My DS is moving schools 13+ entry and he is definitely more unsettled at the moment.

This Q&A might give you an insight too on teenage behaviour
www.mumsnet.com/qanda/charlie-taylor

Sorry, that was hugely long. My heart is just going out to you (DS was suspected of PDA when very dysregulated; he actually has classical high functioning autism, what used to be called Aspergers, but when his anxiety is very high he exhibits PDA type behaviours in spades). I don't think people really understand what parenting a child in this sort of state is like. But with support, DS is doing so, so much better. I really hope your DS will, too.

If your ex was blocking the correct support and evaluation then are you pursuing it now he's out of the picture?

It is not possible for an 11 year old child to emotionally abuse an adult

Of course it is possible. I do despair at the view that children are innocent

Don't be ridiculous. He's 11 and will not have a fully mature brain FFS

We're just the ones they feel safe offloading on.
Just wanted to say I found this point really useful myself! Hadn't thought of it that way before.

He sounds very similar to my ds1. I don't see it as emotional abuse, just a huge amount of insecurity (that's why he's struggling to admit what he did), and a massive amount of sibling rivalry, not to mention the other issues in his background. I think you're being very negative about him, and he may become an EA adult if you persist in seeing this in him, rather than a child who is crying out for your love and attention.

I'm a firm believer in giving kids what they need, not being fair all the time. I'm aware ds1 needs more of me. He's naturally anxious and highly sensitive / emotional, has some mild SN which makes school and life generally a lot harder for him (had been bullied a fair bit), has no friends since we moved a year ago. Ds2 (Also 7) is very popular, confident, good at sport. I give ds1 more time at bedtime as he takes a v long time to unwind and needs to talk through his day. Ds2 is not usually aware as he (and dd) go to sleep at 8.30 and I'm usually with ds1 from 8.30-9.30.

Does your ds2 see his dad? I don't think ds1 is entitled, I think he's in pain.

It's a bit scary that you've assigned the role of abuser to your 11 year old when by every legal and moral measure, he is the victim. Your ex was the abuser, you were the bystander and your children were the victims.

Every time you feel the urge to label your child, remember that. They had no say in who their father was. They had no say in how they were parented. No say in the abuse at all.

Respectfully, get more help and try harder.

A11TheSmallTh1ngs, do you have any experience of parenting a child who behaves as the OP describes, i.e. in a consistently very challenging way? Genuine question. (And no, I'm not blaming him for anything - I agree he's in pain and he and the OP need support.)

I have a very different point of view. I think that you are the one who suffered, you have low barriers and probably low self esteem. He is picking up on that and itcontributes to him getting anxious and defiant (plus teenagehood coming). He sounds like he has always been difficult and some kids are, it's not about what you do/doesn't do. You cannot control a child's temperament, it's in part due to his genetic make up. However you can work on your self esteem and put yourself first a little bit more. Buy yourself a very nice present for your birthday and tell him that you deserve it for being an awesome person and mom. Positive thinking and confidence, you are a strong leader, see all what you have achieved: raising 2 boys and leaving an abusive partner, it's not menial.

A11
I think you are being harsh. The OP was a victim of the abuse not just a bystander. Abuse causes collateral damage in families, we all recognise its not just the target of the abuse that suffers.

Pre-teen / teenage behaviour does mimic abusive behaviour to an extent but the key difference is the intent behind it. An 11 year old is likely to be lashing out because of internal fears, worries and anxieties where an adult abuser is seeking to control another. But I can see why someone who had been abused would see similarities in the external behaviour.

But also, you're in this situation because of your awful ex. Who has left you to deal with two boys on your own, boys who have had a lot to deal with and use you as their source of strength and comfort. It's exhausting – and that's even before dealing with your own recovery.

It sucks that no one is telling ex to step up and be a better parent to his sons, because he doesn't give a crap and wouldn't even bother to ask somewhere like MN for support - of course.

I think you are doing well, you have various kinds of support in place, and you are prepared to try strategies. You are doing your best with a very tough job.

OP: There's a website called Empowering Parents. Some good points are made there. My DS has done what your DS is doing. All the way from the age of 10/11 (when he went into secondary school) to the age of 18. He is emotionally fragile due to multiple family deaths and the death of his best friend. Pick your battles. I note that you have a key worker, use him/her as much as you can to access services. We had family therapy through DS's school as well.

I believe it is possible also, children younger than the OP child bully other children and bullying is emotionally abuse.

So I don't know why you've said it isn't possible

emotional*

It looks like some posters are clearly lacking empathy firing at jay ho. it is not mum vs. son in this .
As a survivor of a DV relationship myself my worst fear is to see my DCs turning out like their father.
Sometimes when they are just being normal teenagers I can read their behaviour as 'abusive'. Then I have to step back and avoid a label which is damaging for them and for myself.

They are still children. They are learning. Sometimes they learn through making mistakes, but then didn't we all?
We owe them to treat them with compassion. And to provide them with the opportunities to learn that it was a mistake. It can also be learnt behaviour, abusive behaviour that's why it needs to be nipped in the bud.
But at this stage they are still learning and nothing is set in stone.

So that happened to you Jayho with your son and the screwdriver. Mine threatened me to 'do me'. When he did that I put his hand on his shoulder and asked him to go and come down in his bedroom. This gesture was putting him back in his place as a little boy. And it saved us both. When I look at him as my little boy, I can find the strength to support him through what can be my worst nightmare.

Other posters may not appreciate the strength it take to get through an abusive relationship and still stand at the end of it, while reliving it through the children and have to put our overwhelming feelings aside (often fight or flight responses) to be able to support our children.

I try to get lots of books on managing feelings for kids (anger, anxiety...) and I agree that play or art therapy seems to be a great way of supporting them as they do not necessarily have the words for counselling at this stage.
Good luck Jayho, feel like I am fighting the same fight everyday.

Agree with sleeponeday's posts.
Ds has PDA, I can relate to much of what you've written.
You don't need your ex's permission to use different strategies, so I would be trying the explosive child, reducing demands, perhaps try writing his chores down as a reminder so there's no nagging or demanding about doing them.
You've all been through so much, I completely agree with whoever said to take a break from it, have a holiday from all the things like bedtime which sound like a regular trigger.
Good luck.

They I believe we all have the potential to be abusive, when our behaviour is anything less than selfless. However, because dysfunctional behaviour is often not deliberately malicious, it often becomes separated from abuse even though the consequences are often the same for those on the receiving end.

Personally, I think apportioning blame, is often a futile activity because it can tend to be used as a way to write off peopIe, if they are to blame for something, the responsibility is all there's to change. The thing is the abuser may not fully understand or be in control of their own behaviour and triggers. I am generally am more interested in solutions, so would only look at motivations behind negative behaviour, not in sole order to blame the perpetrator, but in terms of finding the best solution for preventing it - especially in the case of children.

I mean emotionally abuse in the same way as an adult would.

A child engaging in this behaviour is not emotionally mature - certainly not at 11 - so that's what I'm disagreeing too.

Art therapy is great with angry kids, I think. So is play therapy. Somewhere they can vent the anger and confusion other than all over mum - they need to vent it, but we are humans and have our own limitations and needs.

This is really, really hard. Don't let people make you feel like you are being unreasonable in finding it hard. You're having to use every last ounce of emotional energy to do this, and you are presumably depleted by an abusive relationship, plus you are a single mum. DS was born into a decent marriage and I have support from family, too. It's still incredibly hard. You're doing great just keeping heads above water and seeking the right help and support for him, but make sure you do it for yourself, too. It's the plane and oxygen analogy - you can't apply the mask to your kids if you're unconscious because you didn't put your own on.

Thank you all for some very useful advice. Especially sleep.

You are both treating him like he is more adult than he is - he has to earn money, be responsible for your emotions etc., and babying him - 11 is secondary school age but you feel the need to tell him to have a wee and tuck him in? No wonder he is confused and acting out!

He is not emotionally abusing you, you are sending him very mixed parenting messages and he is confused. You need to address your expectations and how you treat him so he knows where he stands.

hadnt read the whole thread when I had messages OP regarding PDA and also recommending Dr Ross Green

And yes, children, especially PDA children CAN abuse and manipulate their parents when their need to control is very high - ie when they are extremely anxious. They are not doing it deliberately to hurt them, but they are doing it deliberately to avoid or refuse any demand (even self imposed ones) which is just too much for them to be able to do.

Verbal manipulation is the first stage, using language to control or divert or deny, and yes, to lie completely 100% Later they will acknowledge that it wasnt true, but in the moment the need to avoid is the driving force.

My daughter also bursts in and interupts if Im doing a story with her brother and she isnt occupied with something more interesting to her. She is 15. She will dominate any interaction I try to have with other people - very charmingly, but still will take over.

She demands to be treated as an equal, as an adult - always has since a toddler.

She needs reminding to do the 'normal' things too - like having a bath, like taking medication that she takes every single day, she wants to be tucked in. But equally she is on the same page as her peer group in other things.

I thought I was going mental prior to the diagnosis. Her father had treated me the same way and although they had only had limited contact since she was 2 (and several years of no contact) her behaviour triggered me. People constantly judged my parenting and told me I should do x,y and z - or that they would NEVER let their child do what I was 'allowing' her to get away with - that I had spoilt her, that she was doing it to get her own way. The diagnosis gave me vindication in a way - yes she DID need to have her own way, she did need to control, but she couldnt help it. It was a 'cant' rather than a 'wont' and after allowing her control, it dropped back into a more normal relationship - because the control allowed her to feel safe, and then she gradually didnt need so much of it.

I don't have any useful advice that hasn't been given already unfortunately.

However, I do want to tell you that if your ds is theratening yu with a screwdriver, then this is the sign that things have done very serious indeed. It's much more than an anxious child that needs to settled down and needs to have some 'love bombing' and will feel all good afterwards.

Could you get the referral to a child psychologist through SS so your ex can't stop it?
Does your SS worker know about the incident where your ds has even threatening you like this?
Another year, and he will be as tall as you. Then what?

Nettle that is all so familiar. There are two things he does that drive me mad, he will intervene in any conversation I am having and try to take over, like your DD, being charming. Then if I give his brother the slightest reprimand he will repeat it, inflate it and then try to impose punishment on his brother. I always respond by saying 'I am the parent, you don't need to concern yourself' but he can't stop himself.

Back to the GP I think

Don't be ridiculous. He's 11 and will not have a fully mature brain FFS

And how does that mean his behaviour cannot be abusive? That his brain is not fully mature has no effect on how harmful his behaviour is. It just means that he might still change.

Just leaving him be without intervention is not going to lead to a change.

I don't know whom to contact in such a case, OP, but don't let anyone tell you that it is not a problem because he's just 11. Seek help.