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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

11yo DS emotionally abusing me

166 replies

jayho · 11/07/2016 08:44

He's following the script, I don't know what to do to stop him.

For background I split from his extremely EA father nearly six years ago. Ex assaulted DS in February and they have had no contact since. It was just the two of them in the room so one person's word against the other. I was offered the option to prosecute but opted for SS support in the interests of them maintaining a relationship. Ex maintains DS is lying and that he will not see him as he feels 'vulnerable to false accusations'.

DS does not know this, he says he doesn't want to see his father and that's that.

To be frank, DS is hard work. He's anxious and demanding, very oppositional and negative and can be aggressive. I have a strong sense that ex has grasped at a 'get out of jail' card. I know he and his new partner have struggled with DS's behaviour and now he doesn't have to anymore.

So the best interpretation I can put on the situation at home at the moment is that various authorities listening to DS seems to have given him a sense of entitlement. Since he stopped seeing his father he has become more and more controlling of me. I don't know if it's through anxiety or what but it is driving me mad.

We have a number of on-going flashpoints. One is bedtime. So I take younger DS to bed first, we have a story and a cuddle then I go in to 11yo. Elder has taken to repeatedly bursting into younger DS's room demanding to know when I will come in to him. I have explained to him a thousand times that if he keeps doing this I will be longer. He always acknowledges that I'm right but then does exactly the same thing the next night.

So last night before I took younger boy up I carefully and deliberately said to 11yo 'I'm taking boy to bed, please go up at 9, have a wee, brush your teeth, go in to your bed and I will come him when he's settled. Please do not come in to boy's room, I will come to you when he's settled. Do you understand?' and asked him to repeat it back to me to make sure he was clear.

30 mins later he bursts in to the room. He does it four more times. Eventually 7yo says 'don't worry mummy, I'll go to sleep on my own to stop him shouting'.

Finally got them both settled at 10.30 pm and I'm exhausted.

This morning 11yo absolutely denied that it happened. He came in once, he didn't shout. I was asleep and dreamt my version of events. He's adamant.

What can I do? Can anyone propose a strategy for dealing with this? I feel like I'm going mad and being bullied by a child in my own home. It's awful

OP posts:
ravenmum · 11/07/2016 10:21

OP didn't expect him to pay as I understand it - it was her son who came up with that idea, assuming she would make him pay though that was not her plan.

OP glad to see you are so self aware. I agree with someone else who said that children just are manipulative sometimes, it's not all your imagination, but you're his mum. You're the one who has to try to help him out of his problems.

jayho · 11/07/2016 10:24

Thanks Fuzzy

Tychos he does make me feel certain ways that does not mean he's responsible or at fault. That is exactly why I am asking for help. I am fully aware that he is not responsible for this I want help to support him through it.

I'm not having counselling.

OP posts:
SpinnakerInTheEther · 11/07/2016 10:24

jayho, from your last post, it sounds as if there is a lot that is really working re. your 11yr old. Smile

I really recommend you read this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/2658928-Help-write-a-GCSEs-exam-for-teenagers-lightbloodyhearted

Don't be too hard on yourself, no child or parent is perfect. Yes, your child has some outbursts, most do. Yes, they are hard to deal with, unreasonable behaviour is. However it really sounds like you have a lovely boy, who has just had struggles in overcoming some stuff - we all do. Flowers

swancourt · 11/07/2016 10:25

I think people have been very harsh here. I agree that the phrasing was not the best and that the OP - as she herself has said - might need some help of her own in reframing the way she thinks about this. But what I hear is serious concerns about a child whose behaviour might not be emotionally abusive now, but displays worrying patterns that the OP is not only finding very difficult to live with in the short term, but wants to find strategies for dealing with so that they don't become habits/part of his personality in the long term. He is hitting and intimidating her, as well as show repeatedly disruptive behaviour. Of course he needs more support too - I would look into not only parenting help, but something for your son, too - he might benefit from some counselling of some kind to help him manage his emotions about his dad. I'm sorry for how much you have been through as a family - it's not surprising you're all struggling in one way or another, and it sounds to me like you are doing yourabsolute best. If you are finding it really hard to process, then it's not surprising either that your DS is - which doesn't mean there's anything wrong with him, of course, but that he's been rejected by his own father (and likely abused) and he's angry about it.

I don't understand the comments about 30 minutes for a seven year old's bedtime. With my five year old, we do pyjamas, milk, wash and teeth, then she reads me a book and I read her a book (or the same with her dad), and then we have a little cuddle and chat before I kiss her goodnight and leave her to go to sleep. That takes half an hour. This seems normal to me.

Isetan · 11/07/2016 10:26

Some of the replies have been just plain ridiculous, your son is abusing you. Does your son understand his behaviour? I have no idea but it does sound like he doesn't and is having great difficulty articulating his feelings and unfortunately for you both, that's manifesting itself in attention seeking behaviour.

Underneath all the aggression there is a scared, confused and angry boy and just because your his mother doesn't mean your equipped to help him. Your son needs professional support and in the circumstances you are doing extremely well.

Demand professional support for your son, he isn't his father but he's too young and has experienced too much to not understand that he isn't.

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 11/07/2016 10:27

I'm not surprise he's irrationally angry at times. He's effectively been abandoned by his father and his brother still has s relationship with him.

What's his relationship like with his brother?

I'm wondering if he's feeling the pressure of expectations as well as being upset about his dad? You say you try to make your time together special. Maybe trying to make it ordinary would help? How much say does he get in what you do in this special time together? I'm just wondering how much control he might feel he has of his life and situation.

TheyOnceSaid · 11/07/2016 10:29

Hi OP sorry to hear what you are going through Flowers

I carefully and deliberately said to 11yo 'I'm taking boy to bed, please go up at 9, have a wee, brush your teeth, go in to your bed and I will come him when he's settled

He is 11 and you are treating him as if he is much younger, you should not have to tell him to do those things.

My only advice to you is try and spend some time alone with him, just you and him, maybe take him out to do something nice this weekend just the two of you.

MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 11/07/2016 10:30

Are you pretty much the only adult in his life now outside of school?

What's his behaviour like there?

It must be very hard and very isolating for you op Flowers

TychosNose · 11/07/2016 10:31

I'm sorry that you're having a difficult time with him. I'm not trying to be harsh but you cannot blame a child for your own emotions.

When he behaves in a certain way, you may have a certain emotional response but he is not the cause of that response.

Please seek counselling for yourself to work through this.

Blaming others for your emotions is not healthy.

CharlotteCollins · 11/07/2016 10:31

My four DCs all get half an hour of my time at bedtime. They don't always choose to spend it with me, but if they want to, it's there. Mostly spent reading and chatting through the day.

If one of the others interrupts they get mostly ignored, but they can sit next to me and listen to the story as long as they don't interrupt the time my DC and I are having together.

SalemsLott · 11/07/2016 10:33

Sounds like family counselling may be helpful. Has he been referred to CAMHS? See if you can get some help for his rituals and anxiety.

Ditsy4 · 11/07/2016 10:34

He has had a lot to contend with in his life.
The aggressiveness is learned behaviour. He is jealous of the amount of time you are spending with his sibling and he feels shut out.
He is probably hormonal.
Is he in Year 6 he will have mixed feelings. Leaving primary school and anxious about Secondary.
Pocket money issue - he is angry at himself but argues with you.
He needs:
Possible help through GP, Barnados etc
You need to spend less time settling 7 yr old. Why can't he have a story with him? Lots of books they could both enjoy...Phillip Pullman, Michael Murpurgo, David Walliams.
Do you still read to him?
Pocket money get him a money box which sorts it into the coins. Try paying him daily. Make the chores achievable. I don't see what is wrong with a small chore a day but he might be the type of child that needs instant results. Price the chores on a chart. I hope little one has some chores too. In clear money box he can watch it grow. My boys loved the coin sorter. Can you have some quality time one to one with him? I agree about the birthday present you shouldn't expect.
They can be manipulative at this age but it is part of growing up just make the rules clear, not too many and stick to it. It is when parents give in that kids then continue I see it time and time again with kids much younger.

AndNowItsSeven · 11/07/2016 10:36

If you took thirty minutes to read a story to your seven year old it's little wonder your 11 year old lost patience. If you are going to take so long couldn't you leave your older child downstairs. Also if your younger child is only 7 couldn't they go to bed around 7.40 leaving more time for your older child.

BurningBridges · 11/07/2016 10:41

Guys, the OP's DS threatened her with a screwdriver.

Do you all need grips? This is about more than bedtimes.

OP get off this thread and call the Young Minds parent helpline for support and advice.

www.youngminds.org.uk/for_parents

jayho · 11/07/2016 10:45

Thank you for the link

OP posts:
ZansForCans · 11/07/2016 10:49

My ex is a twister/liar/gaslighter who did that denying thing, and I know how upsetting it is, and would be even from a child.

With that particular thing, it can help to take the wind out of his sails by not rising to it or arguing back.

"So you think you didn't come in 4 times and shout? OK, I've heard you. I don't agree with you, but we can leave it there."

"OK, I remember it differently but I'm not discussing it now"

According to some things I've read, this behaviour can be intended (not consciously) to push your buttons and make you really mad, thereby expressing the anger the person feels inside but is too scared to express themselves.

You could try saying something like "it must be upsetting for you that I have to look after DS2 so much, I'm sorry about that" to acknowledge his real feelings underneath IYSWIM, rather than engaging with the nonsense.

Also you could ask him to help you make a plan - how would he like bedtime to look? Can you compromise with him and have a new arrangement that goes some way to what he wants?

I know this won't fix everything though.

JsOtherHalf · 11/07/2016 10:49

Does anything here ring any bells?

www.thepdaresource.com/files/PDA_Information_leaflet.pdf

KnockMeDown · 11/07/2016 10:50

I may be way off the mark here, but many of the things you have described about your son and the interactions between you, suggest to me that he has definite behavioral issues. These may be as a result of the difficult upbringing he has had due to issues with his Dad, or down to an actual condition, such as being on the autistic spectrum, or even a combination of both. It could even be that he is copying what he saw his father do - learnt behaviour.

I think that apart from looking at your own parenting, which actually to me seems like you are very patient, you would do well to get him seen by a child psychologist, to gain an insight on why he is behaving like this, and to help him move forward.

snottagecheese · 11/07/2016 10:51

jayho, I just wanted to say that I think some posters have been quite hard on you. I have a 7YO DD who behaves like this sometimes (no issues with divorce, etc, she can just be very explosive) so I know what it's like to feel your child is emotionally abusing you, no matter how much your rational self says they're only little and you can't make comparisons with adult behaviour. It's really tough. And then of course there is the added guilt, as you say, about feeling that way about your child because you know it's not really their fault. I'm glad you've had lots of good advice on here. I hope things get better for you Flowers

plimsolls · 11/07/2016 10:56

I think you've had some good advice about reframing some of his behaviour, and your posts suggests you are a thoughtful and reflective parent.

Despite springydaffs writing off all of us thousands of psychologist "this side of the pond" Hmm I think some professional help
would be really helpful here. Your son sounds like a boy who is reacting/adjusting to his early childhood taking place against a backdrop of abuse. It's not your fault. It's very natural for children to develop these kinds of issues in response, even if it appears that they were never directly abused themselves. And, as you are finding, it's hard for a mother to see ththe child's behaviour clearly when it echoes so much of the abuse she has experienced.

Any psychologist would do as first point of call but it's also worth looking into post- abuse specialists, there are some good local charities (some are play therapists and the like rather than psychologists, can be very good) or something like the WA helpline might be a good place to start.
Good Iuck Flowers

jayho · 11/07/2016 10:56

I have thought of PDA in the past. His father has withdrawn consent to any investigative action. We were on a Dart course, his father withdrew consent and we had to leave.

OP posts:
jayho · 11/07/2016 10:58

Thanks Plimsoles I think I need to be assertive with the family support worker tomorrow and get help.

OP posts:
sleeponeday · 11/07/2016 10:59

This is really hard. I'm so sorry you are where you are, and it's normal to struggle when a child displays behaviour that reminds you of an abuser, especially when there is a blood link to your abuser.

But. But. But.

It's totally normal for children to try to manipulate you. It's part of growing up for kids to do that to their parents, really. Mine does sometimes, and he's autistic so really he does it massively less than neurotypical children do. It will trigger your anxieties and rightly so - but it's not because he is abusive. It's because you have been abused in the past and so he is treading on a nerve. Learning how to interact with other people and to balance their needs and wants with your own, and what is healthy and what is brattish, takes years, and it's normally a work in progress for all of us. An 11 year old is going to be a petulant, angry, manipulative brat sometimes, and that's age appropriate. There's a reason they won't diagnose a personality disorder until someone is in their 20s, and it's because to a large extent that sort of extreme behaviour is not uncommon in children and adolescents. The problem is when adults still do it, but he has a good decade to go yet, and there's no reason to think he will, with love from you and proper support and help from outside for you both.

He sounds like he has massive, massive separation anxiety. I can't put my two to bed alone either because DS can't be alone after supper - he is too anxious. I recognise what you describe and it's really hard on everyone. The night I had no help from anyone and DH was away with work, I ended up with both kids watching TV until they fell asleep, as DS can't be alone and he can't let DD settle. He is the sweetest kid, he isn't trying it on, but he can't do it.

I think one thing to do is to establish what might work, even if it's less than optimal. Is there a tv programme, or film, or computer game your eldest loves? Bonus if you ration it (we have to ration screen time). Might it be doable to let the eldest have that time while you put the younger to bed - I know screens before bed are bad, and in my son's case it wouldn't work as it would throw his bedtime routine and then he wouldn't sleep at all, but as a parent who sometimes compromises just to make things function, I think there are times when you have to go with the survivable. If there is a workaround that won't keep your eldest awake until midnight but will allow you to settle the younger, then go with that.

The other thing that has really helped DS has been put in place by his school: a mix of CBT type work from a family support worker, and mindfulness put in place by the SENDCO. If you are working with SS, what sort of emotional and social support is he getting? And in terms of exercise - DS finds trampolining a big help as it increases endorphins and expends energy, plus is a sensory release. I think exercise can be really important for an angry, agitated kid, or adult for that matter. What is he getting - again, are there agencies who might help with provision, if it's unaffordable for you?

The Explosive Child book is excellent, agreed. But I do think it's essential that, as others have said, you look at him as a child. He is going to behave in extreme, and at times obnoxious ways, because he's a kid growing up and you are his mum. That doesn't mean for one moment that you should accept it, and you are doing all the right things in setting clear boundaries and refusing to allow him to get away with it - he won't want to get away with it; he needs to know he is safe with his mum in the driving seat. But please, please, don't think he is abusive because he is troubled. What you describe is a child who has already had to cope with more than anyone ever should. Think what harm and pain your ex did you - and you were an adult. You could, and did, leave. Your son has to cope with his whole life being not just intertwined with your ex, but being the result of your ex - he's his dad, not a former partner, and he's an arsehole. That is a huge thing for a small person to live with. I think it's a very good thing that his father is out of his life. He sounds like he has done quite enough harm already. I don't buy the idea that a man who abuses his partner is somehow going to be any different with his kids. That's the kind of thinking that led a judge to return Ellie Butler to her sperm donor. It's a good thing, I think, that your ex is now out of the picture... but it is probably going to make your son angry, and as the parent who loves him, and he knows loves him, you're the one he will punish. Horrible, but true. I'm the one DS beats up when he has a sensory-triggered meltdown and it isn't because I create the neural overload, any more than you have your son's sense of abandonment. We're just the ones they feel safe offloading on.

Have you had family therapy - have you asked for some? It does sound like you and your boy could do with some more support.

You're very brave. I just wanted to say that. You're having to parent a very challenging child when that presses triggers from past abuse, as a single parent. It's got to be very, very tough to do that. Please get the help you both deserve and need. Flowers

snottagecheese · 11/07/2016 11:00

PS. yes, do look at JsOtherHalf's link. My DD has PDA traits, notably the prolonged tantrums, resisting demands and controlling behaviour, and it has helped in understanding why she behaves as she does and makes it easier not to take it so personally, IYSWIM.

MissMargie · 11/07/2016 11:02

A big red flag for me is that DS2 sees his father and DS1 doesn't, even though it's by DS1's choice. Sibling rivalry is a fact and I would think Ds1 will bear a grudge. Maybe arranging special fun things for when Ds2 is at his father's might mitigate this.