Epic story of being a crap husband. *very long*

[gshavik]

Not sure what/where or particularly how to start but basically this...

Wife just buggered off with the children to her parents on Saturday. Piled them into the car and left with no goodbye, just 'you need to grow the fuck up'. Hasn't returned yet, no indications when that might happen presently.

Good start?

To expand, we're at a bit of impasse. I'm actually not even sure why but for once my conscience is totally clear and I'm pretty certain that I'm not being unreasonable. Consider this.

I have my own small business, which is in a difficult place just now as it doesn't yet run on its own without me (...work in progress), and our industry is in particularly challenging times. I used to work all the hours God sends (6am - 8pm was typical - sometimes longer - before our first child). That said it more than pays our bills and I've scaled back the work mainly to 9-6 these days in order to be at home more (her demands but I wanted to improve work/life balance too). Throw in the commute and that's about 8:30 - 6:30. Weekends are now virtually all ours.

She decided just before DC1 that she wanted to be a SAHM, which was fine with me but it meant all income now rests on my shoulders. OK - not a major problem but places a bit more stress on my abilities to provide for everything, replacing her salary. I don't mind that and I'm fortunate that I'm in a position where that was possible (at a push, but possible nonetheless).

A few years later and DC3 has been on the scene for some 10 months now and it's obviously a bit busy looking after the three children each day almost every day. I'm under no illusion as to how much of a handful they are (DC1 is about 3.5 YO just now) - but I help out with them as much as I can in the mornings, evenings and at the weekends. On one weekend day, she gets a lie-in, and the other day I get one. In theory. In practice my lie-in consists of having either DC2 or DC3 dumped on me in bed around 6:30 for maybe an hour or so (which I don't resent but it's supposed to be a lie-in...). Thereafter she makes a LOT of noise screaming and yelling at them for this or that, not to mention basically stomping around the house - hardly light underfoot - in a rather chaotic manner. Basically I don't really get the lie-in or sleep and I'm generally up and dressed by about 8:30-9ish because there is no chance of getting sleep. By comparison when she has her lie-in I try as far as possible to have them all contained in the sitting room with their breakfasts and nappy changes all done with fairly minimal fuss, keeping them all playing about and capering happily with basically no need for all the shouting that goes on when she is with them. Basically, it's doable with little to no chaos barring the odd unexpected mishap. These has been the pattern for months now. I'm not saying that I'm better at it - I really don't think that - but as I'll explain more later I'm growing more and more concerned that it's intentional, with a view to teaching me something.

So, our house, as you might imagine with three young children is prone to breakages. Wear and tear on most things would be high anyway I should imagine, and the replacement rate of stuff broken or worn out is ridiculous. Some of it is fair enough, I repaired our washing machine three times as after a few years of being overloaded or having stuff trapped in the door before starting the cycle took its toll. NBD - I'm pretty handy and replaced that. It had taken a few weeks of sizing up the possible options/performance/price and I got one at a bank-holiday sale to keep costs down. Hotpoint 8kg load, 1600rpm spin, 14 minute quick cycle. Great.
Same with the tumble drier - two days when it failed for the last time meant a ridiculous back log of washing that took about two weeks to clear up when the weather was bad over the winter there. Again, NBD, I found another one with 8kg load and had that installed one morning before heading into work. BTW; our electric bill over the winter quarter came to ~£1600. Yeah, that's right. Paid that.

I'm told we need a dishwasher now. OK, but we have a pretty small kitchen and fitting that isn't quite as straightforward as just replacing one. One 600mm cupboard has to be given up (there is already a lack of space) and the carcass hacked up a bit to accommodate. Plumbing, again NBD, but the real issue is the electrics - there is no socket in the back there. In fact, as it transpires (my friend is an electrician, and I know my way around electrics too), the electrics in the kitchen were previously bodged by another owner and the circuit run to the kitchen appears to be using the incorrectly sized cables - we'd discovered this sometime before the dishwasher raised its head. OK, now we have a problem and a potential fire risk if more consumers are added to the circuit, basically the old wiring needs to be replaced with a proper ring circuit, not sure to how many sockets off the top of my head but let’s say it'll take two people about a day to replace and re-wire. Suddenly fitting a dishwasher becomes a whole lot more involved. Enough detail?
So, I explained that this isn't going to be quick job and will need a good deal more than she imagined in order to realise the vision of zero-hassle dishwashing (ha). Not to be disheartened she got her father to give a second opinion whilst I was at work (I should say he means well but is a bit of a bodger with no particular electrical knowledge) - he glanced at the plumbing and the cupboard and stated he didn't see a particular problem. I got accused of being a liar - that was months ago. I am still, apparently, a liar.

A week ago, on a whim she decided that we now need a bigger whirly washing line. I feigned ignorance to the problem (seeing where the conversation was headed and already thinking what now...?), but apparently she wants to be able to get 3 full loads of washing done in ~45 minutes but the line isn't big enough to take that. Putting the physical problems of digging out the big concrete lump buried in the garden aside for a moment, how on earth can we generate 24kgs of washing that suddenly needs doing? Ok - nice weather, maybe get some bedding done, but SRSLY? I wouldn't argue that our existing whirly is a bit crap - 3 arms, not very big. However I've managed two good size loads onto it by thinking about the order stuff gets hung. I think the key concept being missed is staggering or planning or just generally 'keeping on top of it' - maybe easier said than done but still...

A couple months back, her car (a small MPV) got written off in a no-fault accident. Insurance pay out was ok but far from what was needed for a newer car. She wanted a 7-seater. It had to be a seven-seater. OK, so a Zafira it was then. A 13-plate Zafira, about 10k on the clock, superb condition. Good boot space for the buggies and shopping etc. Very practical. I spent weeks weighing up the pros and cons of these fire-prone cars, eventually finding one that was within a sensible price-range that already had the recall work done. It's never held 7 people in it. I doubt it ever will, but it absolutely had to be a 7-seater - her friend has one. Meanwhile, I bought it outright, had to take another hit to the wallet - to be fair I'd rather do that than get it on-tick. I don't grudge getting the car. I do grudge that she wouldn't drive me to the train station to go to collect it, and I grudge that she instead called her parents through from about 80 miles away for the sole purpose of driving me 12 miles to the train station. Frankly, I was a bit embarrassed about that. Clearly it was totally unreasonable of me to expect her to help me help her. I didn't get any thanks for the car until I mentioned the lack-thereof about a week later.

So what's the problem? Apparently none of that.

Also, I think your marriage ended when you started to see each other as clients and service providers, not as partners, or as people who wanted to be together because they liked each other.

That is not uncommon in the exhausting baby and toddler years and it can be salvaged. You'd both have to feel there was a reason to salvage it though - something worthwhile to look forward to.

I think you are still seeing family money as 'your' money, it really isn't.

Also your comment about she is an And and Dec type and you're more a BBC4 type. The contempt is palpable.

I don't think op is coming back ... I think he wanted different answers
It's possible he's at work - under a bridge.

I'll be back probably later this evening as I'm at work just now.

But overall I'd say that the opinions are taken onboard and I'm rethinking much about the situation.

What's at the front of the mind just now is that -

1. Moss on the driveway actually doesn't matter. I'm focussing on a non-issue that has arisen from our circumstances where we have probably both been overloaded really since DC2.

2. I/we need to focus on the root cause for all of this. We're both guilty of probably going overboard in our respective directions when an argument has happened.

3. I'm not really going to rule out my involvement in counselling out-of-hand because clearly we have become the couple that needs it despite my head being in the sand at the initial thought.

I'm satisfied I've done my level best to provide for our family. I'm sure I've done a pretty shit job of being a husband since DC2.

I didn't expect anything really other than criticism from the original posts, but it has been encouraging that actually there is quite a lot of good advice in there as well. I'm taking the criticism onboard too, I hope that at least comes across. That said, the one line 'OP Wife if you're reading this leave now' comments are less credible and just an opinion.

And as for the use of acronym's, well I've used forums before and BTW and FWIW and so on are commonly used elsewhere. I've read the occasional thread on mumsnet before (car selection / 7-seaters and so on) and a quick glance at the FAQ explained what DC1 DH DW DP and so on meant. Hardly rocket science, but seemingly that must come across somehow as something else more insidious to people.

And also, this is an open forum for all people. Should only one parent be allowed to use it exclusively? I know plenty of my faults made on to AIBU before now; it came up in a previous argument. I'm not breaking new ground on putting our personal lives out there for comment in some respect. It is the first time I've done so though - and believe me I'd rather have a spotlight cast on my or our imperfections or face having to be introspective to my own faults (I'm sure I have many, as we all do). That said, something has to change, I've banged my head off the wall clearly taking the wrong approach and our relationship won't fix itself, so why not invite opinion from a great cross-selection of people presumably mainly of the opposite gender. I've not come here for positive reinforment that my opinions are all fine; they're clearly not. I'm happy to take onboard reasons why my opinions are wrong, and to hopefully gain more insight as to where I need to improve my relationship skills for us and our family.

Not sure this is really an issue but plenty comments seem to say it's poor form to post here when she uses it herself. I don't follow why that's passive-agressive, I don't know if she will read it, even if she does what difference would it likely make. It's only my side of the story, from my POV.

Anyway, like I said I'll check this out more later tonight.

I feel for you a bit OP. You've been pretty courteous in your responses here despite being called quite a few names

Your description of your relationship took me right back to the days of having two DC under 3, not a lot of money and a house that was slightly falling apart. My relationship with their dad was quite similar to what you describe here. We separated eight years ago and it was one of the best things I've ever done for myself. I don't know whether he would say the same.

Having very small demanding children is a really difficult stage and if you aren't kind to each other it's just fucking horrible.

I know I didn't feel loved, or valued, or listened to and that really mattered to me, to the extent that I was willing to become a single parent rather than continue in a relationship that actively made me miserable.

As others have said, this isn't about who wins (nobody wins if the family breaks up) or who's right. It's about whether you are both prepared to be kind to each other or not.

You really shouldn't have said 'no' to Relate. My ex finally agreed to Relate a few months before we separated. I'd already made my mind up by then. If you're lucky your wife may not have reached this stage.

Or maybe you'd both genuinely be happier apart - but the fallout for your children is serious, of course. (And I speak as someone who's done it.)

You think that making/hammering/providing/choosing appliances should be enough of an expression of love for your wife. It's clearly not. Only you and she know whether either of you can find the kindness to make the compromises you both need to make if you're going to stay together. You'd both need to simply drop any long lists (very long in your case ) of grievances you think you have. They're gone, it's done, let it go. Start here and now.

If I had one suggestion for you, OP, since you've gracefully come back, it would be this:

Offer her a night or weekend away, leaving the children with you.

You need a couple of full days (at least) of childcare, laundry, cooking, cleaning etc to get just a taste of her life. And you need to do it in the full remembrance that while you know someone else will pick it up after a couple of days, she's facing this as an unbroken span of years ahead.

Would you do this?

Calling people who've taken time to read and respond to him 'man-haters' and people who disagree with him, or are shocked by what he's said 'haters' is not courteous. It is contemptuous.

OP it's great that you're trying to take things on board but, don't confuse 'agreeable' with 'good' advice. The most needed advice is often the most uncomfortable and most difficult to understand at first. If you only accept advice from people you can easily agree with, you just entrench yourself further in your existing position. You still come across as confusing 'good advice' with 'advice I agree with'. The thing about marriage is that you are not the grand-arbiter of what is good and right.

I haven't read the entire thread but I did read the OP. I only have one child and some days the housework just doesn't get done, some days I am completely frazzled, exhausted and stressed out, I only have ONE child. Does your wife cook? Clean? Feed/bathe/entertain the children? Do the washing and the dishes?

Does your wife have many friends? Does she go out and socialise?

To me your post reads like your wife is probably exhausted and stressed out and you are nagging her about moss!

I would be very interested to hear your wife's side.

I think he should just bloody listen to her for once and let her go. He says he's a "crap husband" but clearly doesn't believe this and thinks he is much put upon by this poor woman he believes is so much inferior to him. She's told him numerous times, she's requested counselling which he refused as he knows better than her, she's left once, he didn't change - how much crap does this woman have to take?

I would bet good money her life as a single parent would be happier, less stressful and more peaceful. Especially when OP steps up with shared care (assuming he will seek counselling to be a better co parent than DH) and she gets to get a break and hopefully go back to work.

I actually think she has probably been very brave to keep trying, and also brave to leave. She deserves a fucking round of applause!

I think having the kids on his own for one weekend is not going to show much. You can survive one weekend. Try 3 years.

You're beyond being ' the couple that needs counselling' so 'you wouldn't rule it out'. Your wife has left you. If you want her back you should be suggesting counselling yourself, immediately.

And yes, it's intrusive to pick 'her' forum. Reddit and Netmums both have relationship forums, why pick here?

I feel for you too OP. Nowhere do I get the sense that you're not listening and making a huge effort.

So, 10K on a car, then the whirly gig got a 'ignore her and it will go away' response from you and a 'what now!' attitude. Just got a new 4 pronged one this weekend as it happens - (£20 !! B&Q) Was that amount worth the battle? You lost any reasoned argument of why not to get one when you did the flooring instead all weekend - spending probably over 10x more on flooring and taking way more time on it than a whirly gig takes to fit (I know, my nice BF fitted it for me at the weekend without even asking him to, while I was at work).
So, your problems about her are clear, I doubt she has flounced off (or even "buggered off") without many times telling you why. We are telling you what seems wrong about your approach, so far. How about telling us what she has stated her problems are with you? You have read threads of her's about you on here, so you should be clear on what her beef is with you. Have you done anything to address your short-comings, or just hell bent on pointing out her flaws as a form of defense?
On a different note, just because a machine has a 15 min cycle, doesn't mean it is going to effectively wash things routinely in such a short time, it's meant for a quick refresh of lightly worn clothing, I understand. I hardly use my short cycle tbh. Maybe need to get out of wear once, then wash it, whether soiled or not, cuts down massively on endless washing if you do a longer wash, but less frequently (and less drying, less electricity usage).

"I'm satisfied I've done my level best to provide for our family." I'm pretty certain your wife doesn't think that. Providing is not just about money or even DIY. It is about emotional support, sharing the load, raising your children, working as a team.

Again, still no mention of your children. But your first point is about moss (again). I know you are acknowledging that you are dropping it but the fact that is the first point you feel you need to address and it is still at the front of your mind is boggling. No mention at all of anything you think you should or are going to change in terms of your approach, sharing the workload, engagement with your children. You still fundamentally believe you are right despite 300 odd posts telling you otherwise. It would be hilarious if your wife wasn't on the receiving end of this.

And the fact you can't respect or even recognize your wife's boundaries (despite several independent people telling you that you are out of order)with regards using Mumsnet is very telling.

Have you ever admitted you are wrong, OP? And I don't mean in a fit of pique, passive-aggressively when you really believe you are still right, but genuinely thought I am wrong and I'm sorry for my behavior?

I think the majority of bad-partner men who show up on here are hoping that they can bullshit 'put their side of the story' in such a way that they will get a large number of responses along the lines of 'Your wife is a selfish bitch/lazy/bad mother/ungrateful/frigid/slut' so they can use the thread as a weapon. Arsehole partners do quite often loudly compare their wives to their saintly mothers, or a colleague's wife who has a supermodel figure, cooks perfect meals, keeps a spotless house and takes it up the arse on demand, and some men think MN is the place to gain more condemnation of ungrateful, disobedient women who Don't Know Their Place.
The best thing about MN is how rarely this happens. The abusive or inadequate or self-obsessed man pretty much invariably gets his arse handed to him. Which improves my faith in human nature.

OP, I have been in the same situation as your DW, 3 DC and a DH who works a lot.
Fortunately for me, my DH recognised that my job was just as hard as his. - While he could get up and go to the toilet by himself, I had to hold on until the youngest could be left for a minute without screaming.

• When he was sitting eating his lunch he didn't have to 1st make 3 others and make sure they got eaten rather than thrown on the floor, and 2nd stop eating halfway through in order to sort out one of the DC's.
• When he was having a conversation with another adult, he didn't have to have half a mind on the conversation, half on what his DC's were doing.
• When he left work, he left work - I didn't get to leave work as I lived in it. Even with his help it was still exhausting, I very rarely got a minute to myself as because I had been seeing to their needs all day when my DH had been at work they automatically assumed that I'm the one to go to if they needed anything.

I would have loved to go back to work, to walk out of that house and forget about it until I walked back in after a day of feeling useful and having real life adult conversations. Parenting small children is a thankless task, when they're older you can sit back and think 'I did a good job there, my kids are great' but that doesn't happen when you're just trying to get through the day.

And your comment about her being a fan of Ant & Dec while you're lording it up on BBC4 is just so contemptuous. I like Ant & Dec, I will also watch BBC4. I don't sit there with a smug smile on my face while watching an educational documentary, thinking about how clever I am, I enjoy it. I also enjoy laughing at Ant & Dec while they make jokes about someone eating a kangaroo penis in the Australian Outback. One expands my knowledge, the other makes me smile. If I had to choose one over the other, I'd go for a smile every time.

If your wife was a broken appliance you would spend hours researching how to fix her, as it is you won't even spend one hour at counselling, think about how that approach makes her feel. Your marriage is broken, research how to fix it!

I think the majority of bad-partner men who show up on here are hoping that they can bullshit 'put their side of the story' in such a way that they will get a large number of responses along the lines of 'Your wife is a selfish bitch/lazy/bad mother/ungrateful/frigid/slut' so they can use the thread as a weapon

Spot on.

I think the majority of bad-partner men who show up on here are hoping that they can bullshit 'put their side of the story' in such a way that they will get a large number of responses along the lines of 'Your wife is a selfish bitch/lazy/bad mother/ungrateful/frigid/slut' so they can use the thread as a weapon"

Yep, and that's why the advice to go to Netmums makes me shudder. At least here, they get told like it it is. Even though they never take it on board as we are just man hating selfish feminazi harpies. And half the time they don't actually want advice they just want to invade a space their DW/DP uses for support and/or publicly declare how hard done by they are. It's actually fairly sinister, IMHO.

You sound emotionally and financially abusive OP. I cant help noticing you moan at your DW for things having normal wear and tear because they are going to cost money to replace. I suspect this is also the reason you moan at her for having her shower at a certain temperature. Do you time how long she takes as well?

Middle, I wasn't advising him to go to Netmums, I was pointing out there are plenty of other relationships forums and he was deliberately choosing the one she uses. I don't use Netmums, but I think on Reddit Relationships he'd have got plenty of similar reactions. He might even have listened to some, since they would have been from men. Here's here to intrude on her space.

miffle, sorry, auto correct.

Reading this makes me sad because this is my life currently. My DH is exactly like you, bound up in tiny details and totally missing the bigger picture. DH also claims that he is 'on the spectrum' and thinks this excuses him for behaving like a total control freak. I mentioned this point to his mother a couple of weeks ago - she laughed at me and said 'he's not not on the spectrum darling, he's just bloody selfish!'

Take note OP. She has left because she is serious and doesn't know what else to do. And STILL you're missing the bigger picture. If you keep on trying to win your marriage you will lose.

You asked if Relate was that b&w, no not really; but in our first session, dh said something or other and the counsellor almost burst out laughing while saying "but that's just soooo unreasonable" (something about the temperature of my bath - my bath!). DH told lots of people that he had expected Relate to completely vindicate him, and I would see how everything was my fault, whereas what happened was he started to see how U he was instead.

Give it a try. IME, people who think they're 'above' counselling will split up, inevitably. My cousin told me that both he and his wife decided against counselling because they were both quite intelligent and sensible enough to sort things out themselves. Well, his wife sorted things out by leaving him.

Here is some hopefully helpful, logical advice OP, I am also on the spectrum, it's not an excuse to be an arse (although I'm sure I am sometimes). Here's stuff I've learned that might be useful to you:

1. She is not shouting or crashing. I often feel that my DP is 'shouting' or that she is crashing around (particularly when it's my turn for a lie in) when she is not. I'm just hypersensitive to noise. The TV is not being turned up, it's being turned on. Try earplugs.

2. Stop dwelling on the minutiae and look at the bigger picture. I'm still not very good at this. If you're not sure what the bigger picture is, ask your DW, and trust her when she tells you the answer. From what you've written it is probably "sod the driveway, take the children out for a whole day."

3. Say thank you for specific things. Not just a generic "thank you for being a great mummy." Thank you for doing the washing up. Changing that nappy. Cooking dinner. The midnight feed. It's a simple thing you can do and it will make her feel appreciated even if it feels peculiar at first doing it. Along the same lines, send her a message in the day which is personal - something that made you think of her, something that might make her laugh, a message to say hope you're having a good day, or just a quick 'love you' message. NOT a message asking her to do something, just an emotional one. Set your phone to remind you to do it if that helps. It's purposeless communication, it's weird, but most people like it and it makes them feel valued.

4. You asked "any advice on what to do when fairly simple, trivial, well-intentioned requests go unheard or wilfully ignored." Bite your lip about the diet coke spills or whatever. Either wipe them up or leave them, but don't tell her off, she's not your employee or your child.

5. Explain - BRIEFLY - what your communication difficulties are (not a lengthy self-justification, a brief outline). She needs to know that you find it difficult to intuit things if that is a problem. I know that my DP will not leave me to guess what she means, so I'm not constantly looking for hidden meaning in what she says. If your DW is hinting, and you find hints difficult to get, she needs to know that. Otherwise she's trying to communicate with you with only half the information she needs to do so successfully and that isn't fair.

6. Trust her. One of the most difficult things about being ASD and in a relationship IME is that I don't get the non-verbal communication. I have to rely on what she says, where a NT person would probably get just as much information from facial expression, body language, intonation and so on. If she tells you she needs a whirlything, don't say "yes but...," trust her. She loved you enough to marry you, she's not going to take advantage of you with superfluous whirlythings.

And for heavens sake take the kids out once a week, for the whole day, that means leaving straight after breakfast and not coming back until tea time, and let her recharge. She will probably be much more receptive to talking about moss once she's less strung out.